Nikon D750 - Experiments at ISO 12800

On Sat, 6 Feb 2016 17:33:27 -0500, PeterN
wrote:

On 2/6/2016 5:23 PM, Eric Stevens wrote:
On Thu, 04 Feb 2016 17:06:32 +1300, Eric Stevens
wrote:

--- snip ---

From the NR point of view it performed quite well. Did you have the
High ISO NR turned on in-camera?

No.

Anyway, here it is after 30 secs in Lightroom
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...2--7501956.jpg

There is something about that rendition which makes me think of over
cooked NR. I am thinking particularly of the smoothing and loss of
detail in the shadows.

Yes. It looks waxy, doesn't it.

I've never really had to concern myself with noise in the D750
previously so this is bit of an experiment. I've worked on this one a
little more, trying to get rid of the overcooked NR look and so far, I
have ended up he

Previous example
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...-7501956-2.jpg

Second try
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...R--7501956.jpg

I'm still not entirely happy. I don't seem to be able to strike a
balance between still visible noise and a slightly waxy appearance.
This latest one still has noise.


Just out of curiosity, have you tried using DXO. It has pretty good NR
and shadow lighting in its develop module.

I have tried the current one (needed for the D750 etc) but noise was
not then a problem. I decided to not then buy it as it didn't seem to
offer that much of an advantage over LR CC. And that was before one of
my Quad ESL-63 speakers blew up.
http://loudspeaker-repair-service.re...ick_final2.JPG
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

On Sat, 6 Feb 2016 15:11:17 -0800, Savageduck
wrote:

On 2016-02-06 22:23:45 +0000, Eric Stevens said:

On Thu, 04 Feb 2016 17:06:32 +1300, Eric Stevens
wrote:

--- snip ---

From the NR point of view it performed quite well. Did you have the
High ISO NR turned on in-camera?

No.

Anyway, here it is after 30 secs in Lightroom
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...2--7501956.jpg

There is something about that rendition which makes me think of over
cooked NR. I am thinking particularly of the smoothing and loss of
detail in the shadows.

Yes. It looks waxy, doesn't it.

I've never really had to concern myself with noise in the D750
previously so this is bit of an experiment. I've worked on this one a
little more, trying to get rid of the overcooked NR look and so far, I
have ended up he

Previous example
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...-7501956-2.jpg

Second try
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...R--7501956.jpg

I'm still not entirely happy. I don't seem to be able to strike a
balance between still visible noise and a slightly waxy appearance.
This latest one still has noise.

I agree. The image still has an over-cooked NR look to it.

Did you have High ISO, or Low speed NR turned on in the menu?

High Iso NR was turned off. Long Exposure NR was turned off but I
doubt that 1/400 sec it would have been called on at all. :-)

I checked the full EXIF including the XMP and found the following:
Sharpness - 102
Luminance Smoothing - 100
Color Noise Reduction - 20

Sharpen Radius - +1.0
Sharpen Detail - 100
Sharpen Edge Masking - 33

Luminance Noise Reduction Detail - 67
Color Noise Reduction Detail - 46
Luminance Noise Reduction Contrast - 82
Color Noise Reduction Smoothness - 48

Given those numbers, my question is, was there any color noise to be
corrected in the RAW file?

Quite a lot but it was easily dealt with.

Just how bad was the noise in the RAW file?

Go on. Why dont you just come right out and ask? :-)
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...3/_7501956.NEF

Using the LR *Detail Panel* what were your actual settings?

Sharpening
Amount 102
Radius 1.0
Detail 100 (Don't know how that got there)
Masking 33

Noise Reduction
Luminance 100
Detail 67
Contrast 82

Color 20
Detail 46
Smoothness 48

That 100 detail setting in sharpness doesn't seem to have affected the
noise problem.

...and finally would you care to share the NEF (either out in the open
here or via email) so I could see if a different approach might help.

OK. You did come outright and ask.

Please remember (1) I wasn't trying to take high quality shots (2) I
wasn't systematically exploring High ISO (3) I was taking a random
variety of quite difficult shots to see what the camera made of them.

--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

On 2016-02-07 01:33:15 +0000, Eric Stevens said:

On Sat, 6 Feb 2016 15:11:17 -0800, Savageduck
wrote:

On 2016-02-06 22:23:45 +0000, Eric Stevens said:

On Thu, 04 Feb 2016 17:06:32 +1300, Eric Stevens
wrote:

--- snip ---

From the NR point of view it performed quite well. Did you have the
High ISO NR turned on in-camera?

No.

Anyway, here it is after 30 secs in Lightroom
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...2--7501956.jpg

There is something about that rendition which makes me think of over
cooked NR. I am thinking particularly of the smoothing and loss of
detail in the shadows.

Yes. It looks waxy, doesn't it.

I've never really had to concern myself with noise in the D750
previously so this is bit of an experiment. I've worked on this one a
little more, trying to get rid of the overcooked NR look and so far, I
have ended up he

Previous example
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...-7501956-2.jpg

Second try
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...R--7501956.jpg

I'm still not entirely happy. I don't seem to be able to strike a
balance between still visible noise and a slightly waxy appearance.
This latest one still has noise.

I agree. The image still has an over-cooked NR look to it.

Did you have High ISO, or Low speed NR turned on in the menu?

High Iso NR was turned off. Long Exposure NR was turned off but I
doubt that 1/400 sec it would have been called on at all. :-)

I checked the full EXIF including the XMP and found the following:
Sharpness - 102
Luminance Smoothing - 100
Color Noise Reduction - 20

Sharpen Radius - +1.0
Sharpen Detail - 100
Sharpen Edge Masking - 33

Luminance Noise Reduction Detail - 67
Color Noise Reduction Detail - 46
Luminance Noise Reduction Contrast - 82
Color Noise Reduction Smoothness - 48

Given those numbers, my question is, was there any color noise to be
corrected in the RAW file?

Quite a lot but it was easily dealt with.

Odd? I only found luminance noise and very little to no color noise.


Just how bad was the noise in the RAW file?

Go on. Why dont you just come right out and ask? :-)
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...3/_7501956.NEF

Using the LR *Detail Panel* what were your actual settings?

Sharpening
Amount 102

Higher than I would have used for that shot.

Radius 1.0

Minimal effect.

Detail 100 (Don't know how that got there)

You had control of the slider didn't you?

Masking 33

Noise Reduction
Luminance 100

Waay too much!!

Detail 67
Contrast 82

Color 20
Detail 46
Smoothness 48
That 100 detail setting in sharpness doesn't seem to have affected the
noise problem.

Well you did mask it a bit and you had a radius of 1.0.

...and finally would you care to share the NEF (either out in the open
here or via email) so I could see if a different approach might help.

OK. You did come outright and ask.

Please remember (1) I wasn't trying to take high quality shots (2) I
wasn't systematically exploring High ISO (3) I was taking a random
variety of quite difficult shots to see what the camera made of them.

I understand. However, there are times when as part of the exercise it
is worth understanding what could be done to fix what the camera has
done.

Anyway here is what I got:
Sharpening:
Amount - 87
Radius - +1.3
Detail - 61
Masking - 91

Luminance NR:
Amount - 45
Detail - 58
Contrast - 8

Color NR:
Amount - 25
Detail - 50
Smoothness - 38

Dehaze - +3

Also, there seem to be some spots in the sky.

The first rendition:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1295663/FileChute/_7501956-E1.jpg

--
Regards,

Savageduck

On Sun, 07 Feb 2016 14:33:15 +1300, Eric Stevens
wrote:

On Sat, 6 Feb 2016 15:11:17 -0800, Savageduck
wrote:

On 2016-02-06 22:23:45 +0000, Eric Stevens said:

On Thu, 04 Feb 2016 17:06:32 +1300, Eric Stevens
wrote:

--- snip ---

From the NR point of view it performed quite well. Did you have the
High ISO NR turned on in-camera?

No.

Anyway, here it is after 30 secs in Lightroom
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...2--7501956.jpg

There is something about that rendition which makes me think of over
cooked NR. I am thinking particularly of the smoothing and loss of
detail in the shadows.

Yes. It looks waxy, doesn't it.

I've never really had to concern myself with noise in the D750
previously so this is bit of an experiment. I've worked on this one a
little more, trying to get rid of the overcooked NR look and so far, I
have ended up he

Previous example
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...-7501956-2.jpg

Second try
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...R--7501956.jpg

I'm still not entirely happy. I don't seem to be able to strike a
balance between still visible noise and a slightly waxy appearance.
This latest one still has noise.

I agree. The image still has an over-cooked NR look to it.

Did you have High ISO, or Low speed NR turned on in the menu?

High Iso NR was turned off. Long Exposure NR was turned off but I
doubt that 1/400 sec it would have been called on at all. :-)

I checked the full EXIF including the XMP and found the following:
Sharpness - 102
Luminance Smoothing - 100
Color Noise Reduction - 20

Sharpen Radius - +1.0
Sharpen Detail - 100
Sharpen Edge Masking - 33

Luminance Noise Reduction Detail - 67
Color Noise Reduction Detail - 46
Luminance Noise Reduction Contrast - 82
Color Noise Reduction Smoothness - 48

Given those numbers, my question is, was there any color noise to be
corrected in the RAW file?

Quite a lot but it was easily dealt with.

Just how bad was the noise in the RAW file?

Go on. Why dont you just come right out and ask? :-)
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...3/_7501956.NEF

Using the LR *Detail Panel* what were your actual settings?

Sharpening
Amount 102
Radius 1.0
Detail 100 (Don't know how that got there)
Masking 33

Noise Reduction
Luminance 100
Detail 67
Contrast 82

Color 20
Detail 46
Smoothness 48

That 100 detail setting in sharpness doesn't seem to have affected the
noise problem.

...and finally would you care to share the NEF (either out in the open
here or via email) so I could see if a different approach might help.

OK. You did come outright and ask.

Please remember (1) I wasn't trying to take high quality shots (2) I
wasn't systematically exploring High ISO (3) I was taking a random
variety of quite difficult shots to see what the camera made of them.

I tried the Prime NR in DXO, and it does no better than LR, and might
be a bit worse. Waxy is the word again.

In LR, with Color NR set to only 20, that goes away, and with
Luminance NR at 40, it's not bad. But you're right, that's a lot of
noise.

On Sat, 6 Feb 2016 18:38:55 -0800, Savageduck
wrote:

Odd? I only found luminance noise and very little to no color noise.

I thought the same thing until I noticed that LR had automatically
added color NR, along with luminance NR. When I moved it back to zero,
the color noise was extreme.

In article 2016020618385515879-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom, Savageduck wrote:

Eric Stevens:
Anyway, here it is after 30 secs in Lightroom
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...2--7501956.jpg

The first rendition:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1295663/FileChute/_7501956-E1.jpg

http://jonaseklundh.se/files/ericscape.jpg

--
Sandman

In article , Bill W wrote:

Eric Stevens:
OK. You did come outright and ask.

Please remember (1) I wasn't trying to take high quality shots (2)
I wasn't systematically exploring High ISO (3) I was taking a
random variety of quite difficult shots to see what the camera
made of them.

I tried the Prime NR in DXO, and it does no better than LR, and
might be a bit worse. Waxy is the word again.

In LR, with Color NR set to only 20, that goes away, and with
Luminance NR at 40, it's not bad. But you're right, that's a lot of
noise.

Hmmm, this sounds odd. DxO optics Prime noise reduction second to none, when
loading this image and turning on prime, pretty much all noise just vanishes.
Not sure what you guys mean by "waxy" though, but what I get looks like a very
natural rendition of the scene.


--
Sandman

On 7 Feb 2016 10:17:06 GMT, Sandman wrote:

In article , Bill W wrote:

Eric Stevens:
OK. You did come outright and ask.

Please remember (1) I wasn't trying to take high quality shots (2)
I wasn't systematically exploring High ISO (3) I was taking a
random variety of quite difficult shots to see what the camera
made of them.

I tried the Prime NR in DXO, and it does no better than LR, and
might be a bit worse. Waxy is the word again.

In LR, with Color NR set to only 20, that goes away, and with
Luminance NR at 40, it's not bad. But you're right, that's a lot of
noise.

Hmmm, this sounds odd. DxO optics Prime noise reduction second to none, when
loading this image and turning on prime, pretty much all noise just vanishes.
Not sure what you guys mean by "waxy" though, but what I get looks like a very
natural rendition of the scene.

I won't argue about it being second to none - you certainly have far
more experience with this stuff. But I have never been able to get
better results with DXO than with LR, and it was the same with this
photo. I could not remove the noise without wiping out the detail in
certain areas, and that was with either one of them.

I do prefer LR because it's just much faster in this area, and the
masking is much easier when using the alt key. At least to me, it is.

At the same time, the version you posted in another response looks
better than the ones I did. Did you use the auto settings, or did you
fiddle with the advanced settings in Prime? I tried everything, and
couldn't get a good result.

On 2016-02-07 17:29:00 +0000, Bill W said:

On 7 Feb 2016 10:17:06 GMT, Sandman wrote:

In article , Bill W wrote:

Eric Stevens:
OK. You did come outright and ask.

Please remember (1) I wasn't trying to take high quality shots (2)
I wasn't systematically exploring High ISO (3) I was taking a
random variety of quite difficult shots to see what the camera
made of them.

I tried the Prime NR in DXO, and it does no better than LR, and
might be a bit worse. Waxy is the word again.

In LR, with Color NR set to only 20, that goes away, and with
Luminance NR at 40, it's not bad. But you're right, that's a lot of
noise.

Hmmm, this sounds odd. DxO optics Prime noise reduction second to none, when
loading this image and turning on prime, pretty much all noise just vanishes.
Not sure what you guys mean by "waxy" though, but what I get looks like a very
natural rendition of the scene.

I won't argue about it being second to none - you certainly have far
more experience with this stuff. But I have never been able to get
better results with DXO than with LR, and it was the same with this
photo. I could not remove the noise without wiping out the detail in
certain areas, and that was with either one of them.

I do prefer LR because it's just much faster in this area, and the
masking is much easier when using the alt key. At least to me, it is.

At the same time, the version you posted in another response looks
better than the ones I did. Did you use the auto settings, or did you
fiddle with the advanced settings in Prime? I tried everything, and
couldn't get a good result.

I made a second attempt, but this time I left the NR to NIK Define.
BTW: Eric, I have no doubt that you have quit a few dirt spots on your
sensor. A sensor cleaning is in order.

Rendition #2:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1295663/FileChute/_7501956-E2.jpg

--
Regards,

Savageduck

On 2/7/2016 1:48 PM, Savageduck wrote:



I made a second attempt, but this time I left the NR to NIK Define.
BTW: Eric, I have no doubt that you have quit a few dirt spots on your
sensor. A sensor cleaning is in order.

Rendition #2:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1295663/FileChute/_7501956-E2.jpg


Why would Eric quit dirt spots?

--
PeterN