A Photography forum. PhotoBanter.com

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » PhotoBanter.com forum » General Photography » In The Darkroom
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Road ruts with Jobo



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old January 25th 04, 02:10 AM
Brian Kosoff
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Road ruts with Jobo

On 1/24/04 7:37 PM, in article kens, "David
Nebenzahl" wrote:

On 1/24/2004 9:04 AM Jean-David Beyer spake thus:

David Nebenzahl wrote:

On 1/23/2004 8:03 PM Jean-David Beyer spake thus:
I'm guessing that the problems associated with constant, invariant
agitation in this device (Jobo) must have something to do with the
interior geometry, topology or hydrology of the gizmo, as I never
have problems with my rotary processor, which is the Beseler Unidrum
(for 4x5 and 9x12). There must be something inside the Jobo--some
baffle or something else in the flow stream--that causes
standing-wave patterns, eddies if you will, that lead to these "road
ruts".

I disagree. If there were an _inherent_ problem to the Jobo processor
(more precisely, its tanks and | or reels), then _everyone_ would get
these problems, and I do not. Many people use them successfully, and
some even use their fancier reel-less tanks for negative processing with
success. [...]

The _only_ time I got what I might call road ruts was the stripe
parallel to the 5" edge when using the obsolete pre-2509N sheet film
reels. These have been discontinued a decade or two ago. By now, I would
have supposed people would have either upgraded their tanks and reels or
given up rotary negative processing.


So you're saying that anyone who experiences problems such as those described
by the OP must be using these old reels? Do we know what kind of reels he's
using?




I'm using # 2502 reels with 120 film, an unmodified CPP-2 with a lift arm,
and the 250x series drums. I also have uneven development on 8x10 with the
8x10 size 300x expert drums.

  #22  
Old January 25th 04, 03:24 AM
Jean-David Beyer
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Road ruts with Jobo

David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 1/24/2004 9:04 AM Jean-David Beyer spake thus:

David Nebenzahl wrote:




On 1/23/2004 8:03 PM Jean-David Beyer spake thus: I'm guessing
that the problems associated with constant, invariant agitation
in this device (Jobo) must have something to do with the interior
geometry, topology or hydrology of the gizmo, as I never have
problems with my rotary processor, which is the Beseler Unidrum
(for 4x5 and 9x12). There must be something inside the Jobo--some
baffle or something else in the flow stream--that causes
standing-wave patterns, eddies if you will, that lead to these
"road ruts".

I disagree. If there were an _inherent_ problem to the Jobo
processor (more precisely, its tanks and | or reels), then
_everyone_ would get these problems, and I do not. Many people use
them successfully, and some even use their fancier reel-less tanks
for negative processing with success. [...]

The _only_ time I got what I might call road ruts was the stripe
parallel to the 5" edge when using the obsolete pre-2509N sheet
film reels. These have been discontinued a decade or two ago. By
now, I would have supposed people would have either upgraded their
tanks and reels or given up rotary negative processing.



So you're saying that anyone who experiences problems such as those
described by the OP must be using these old reels? Do we know what
kind of reels he's using?


I am not saying that, because I know enough about making dogmatic
statements: the most important of which is that the more dogmatic I get,
the more likely I am to be in error. (Be careful: do not step in the dogma.)

What I am saying is the problems are _not inherent_ in the Jobo system,
since I, among others, get no road ruts (even if carefully measured),
and without heroic measures to ensure their absense.

So it must be something the others are doing. While it is possible that
all those people (however many that may be) are either very sloppy
processors using too little chemistry, people who are trying to develop
negatives in print drums, using old reels, _or something else_, but I
have no clue what the something else might be, and I doubt it can all be
attributed to sloppy processing.

I mistrust those who say to rotate the processor 90 degrees to change
the magnetic fields though. They are either joking, or egregeously
ignorant. It happens that my processor is usually lined up along an
East-West axis (roughly; i.e., parallel to White Street in Shrewsbury,
NJ, but I have used it at 90 degrees to that and it matters not).

--
.~. Jean-David Beyer Registered Linux User 85642.
/V\ Registered Machine 73926.
/( )\ Shrewsbury, New Jersey http://counter.li.org
^^-^^ 9:50pm up 18 days, 9:15, 5 users, load average: 2.24, 2.13, 2.10

  #23  
Old January 25th 04, 04:17 AM
Jean-David Beyer
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Road ruts with Jobo

Jean-David Beyer wrote (in part):

The _only_ time I got what I might call road ruts was the stripe
parallel to the 5" edge when using the obsolete pre-2509N sheet film
reels. These have been discontinued a decade or two ago. By now, I
would have supposed people would have either upgraded their tanks and
reels or given up rotary negative processing.

Here is part of a very old post I made. It identifies the parts from the
_obsolete_ OLD Jobo system. This was posted to marketplace back then.
This is not an offer to sell or a request to buy.

I am replacing my old Jobo Sheet film system with newer equipment.
Therefore, I have the following items for sale at a price I hope
low enough to promote a quick sale.

1 #4323 tank: accepts 2 4x5 reels; requires 1 quart of solution.
Magnet drive (fits CPE2 processor).
2 #2023 "6-sheet" reels for above tank. While you can get 6
sheets of film in each reel, it is only fair to point out
that if you load more than 4 sheets in each, unacceptably
uneven development usually results
1 #2025 loader.

The #4323 tank is somewhat like the present #2551 tank. The #2023
reels are obsolete versions of the #2509N reels, and the #2025
loader is something like the current #2508 and #2512 base and guide.
However, while they are compatible with each other, they are incompatible
with the current equipment supplied by Jobo. They do fit the CPE2
processor, and I imagine they fit the CPA and CPP as well.

[posted 1997/04/06, which gives an upper bound to when the new system
came out]


--
.~. Jean-David Beyer Registered Linux User 85642.
/V\ Registered Machine 73926.
/( )\ Shrewsbury, New Jersey http://counter.li.org
^^-^^ 11:10pm up 18 days, 10:35, 7 users, load average: 2.04, 2.11, 2.14

  #24  
Old January 25th 04, 05:10 AM
David Nebenzahl
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Road ruts with Jobo

On 1/24/2004 7:24 PM Jean-David Beyer spake thus:

I am not saying that, because I know enough about making dogmatic
statements: the most important of which is that the more dogmatic I get,
the more likely I am to be in error. (Be careful: do not step in the dogma.)


Like they used to say, sorry: my karma just ran over your dogma.


--
Focus: A very overrated feature.

- From Marcy Merrill's lexicon at Junk Store Cameras
(http://merrillphoto.com/JunkStoreCameras.htm)

  #26  
Old January 25th 04, 05:22 AM
Michael Scarpitti
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Road ruts with Jobo

Jean-David Beyer wrote in message ...
Randy Stewart wrote:
"Tom Thackrey" wrote in message
om...

On 23-Jan-2004, (Michael Scarpitti) wrote:


Mechanical agitation that is invarying inevitably will be harder to
control than manual agitation using inversion in a standard tank. The
allure of mechanization is obvious, but I process exclusively by hand,
and never have uneven development.

Gee and I thought consistancy was the objective. I didn't realize that
varying agitation was part of the creative process. ;-

--
Tom Thackrey



Gee Tom, I don't think that agistation methods, apart from some extremes,
have anything to do with "the creative process" either, but then mechanical
drum processing of your film doesn't guarantee "consistency" which is worth
achieving, as this thread as demonstrated.

Mr. Sccarpitti's style does get very far with me, so I find it stange to
take his side on this point. However the inherent problems of constant
agistation of the type provided by Jobo,


What _are_ the _inherent problems_ of constant agitation?


Lack of randomness.

AFAIK, the
only problem is the contrast is higher, and that is completely
controlled by decreasing the development time or increasing the dilution
of the developer.

or which I dealt with for more
than a decade using a similar processer, are well documented and discussed
in The Film Developing Cookbook.


Why do I _never_ get uniformity problems with my Jobo CPE-2? If I were
getting uniformity problems, surely I could measure them with the
TD-901, and I do not see that.

Hand done, intermitant agitation is not as
convenient as a drum processor, but it does avoid the problems discussed in
this thread, and should yield marginally better negatives for most people.
It's just a question of whether your drum processor result are okay for you
and you put a premium on the convenience, in which case, keep on "rolling".

Randy Stewart


  #27  
Old January 25th 04, 05:33 AM
Michael Scarpitti
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Road ruts with Jobo

"Randy Stewart" wrote in message ...
"Tom Thackrey" wrote in message
om...

On 23-Jan-2004, (Michael Scarpitti) wrote:

Mechanical agitation that is invarying inevitably will be harder to
control than manual agitation using inversion in a standard tank. The
allure of mechanization is obvious, but I process exclusively by hand,
and never have uneven development.


Gee and I thought consistancy was the objective. I didn't realize that
varying agitation was part of the creative process. ;-

--
Tom Thackrey


Gee Tom, I don't think that agistation methods, apart from some extremes,
have anything to do with "the creative process" either, but then mechanical
drum processing of your film doesn't guarantee "consistency" which is worth
achieving, as this thread as demonstrated.

Mr. Sccarpitti's style does get very far with me, so I find it stange to
take his side on this point. However the inherent problems of constant
agistation of the type provided by Jobo, or which I dealt with for more
than a decade using a similar processer, are well documented and discussed
in The Film Developing Cookbook. Hand done, intermitant agitation is not as
convenient as a drum processor, but it does avoid the problems discussed in
this thread, and should yield marginally better negatives for most people.
It's just a question of whether your drum processor result are okay for you
and you put a premium on the convenience, in which case, keep on "rolling".

Randy Stewart




Constant agitation in a Jobo-type machine suppresses adjacency
effects, increases contrast, and is not as even as hand processing
using inversion and rotation.
  #28  
Old January 25th 04, 06:38 AM
Tom Phillips
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Road ruts with Jobo



Jean-David Beyer wrote:

David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 1/24/2004 9:04 AM Jean-David Beyer spake thus:

David Nebenzahl wrote:
I'm guessing
that the problems associated with constant, invariant agitation
in this device (Jobo) must have something to do with the interior
geometry, topology or hydrology of the gizmo, as I never have
problems with my rotary processor, which is the Beseler Unidrum
(for 4x5 and 9x12). There must be something inside the Jobo--some
baffle or something else in the flow stream--that causes
standing-wave patterns, eddies if you will, that lead to these
"road ruts".

I disagree. If there were an _inherent_ problem to the Jobo
processor (more precisely, its tanks and | or reels), then
_everyone_ would get these problems, and I do not. Many people use
them successfully, and some even use their fancier reel-less tanks
for negative processing with success. [...]


So you're saying that anyone who experiences problems such as those
described by the OP must be using these old reels? Do we know what
kind of reels he's using?


What I am saying is the problems are _not inherent_ in the Jobo system,
since I, among others, get no road ruts (even if carefully measured),
and without heroic measures to ensure their absense.


I've use a jobo for over 20 years and never had any problems that were
processor related.

So it must be something the others are doing.


Yes.

While it is possible that
all those people (however many that may be) are either very sloppy
processors using too little chemistry, people who are trying to develop
negatives in print drums, using old reels, _or something else_, but I
have no clue what the something else might be, and I doubt it can all be
attributed to sloppy processing.

I mistrust those who say to rotate the processor 90 degrees to change
the magnetic fields though. They are either joking, or egregeously
ignorant.


The something must be they're processing by astrology charts instead of the
Jobo manual...

  #29  
Old January 25th 04, 07:04 AM
Tom Phillips
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Road ruts with Jobo



Brian Kosoff wrote:

Jean-David,

Here is a copy of an email that I sent to Jobo. But first a few facts
not listed in the email as I thought they were so obvious as to not need
listing. I am using the 2500 series FILM drums, with the proper inner cores
and with 2502 reels for 120 film. For my 4x5 and 8x10 films, I have the
3005 and 3010 expert drums. Maybe you have not seen uneveness in your film
because you do not shoot on totally even, studio lit, white backgrounds.
I do not need to measure the uneveness on my densitometer as it is so
blatantly evident to the eye.


I can't imagine shooting with strobe in a studio setting against any background
(wall, floor, or light table) and getting "even" illumination on the background.
The whole point is to light the subject, not the background, and if you try to
use flat lighting) no way is the light ever going to be 100% even on a
background. Not in my experience.

As for the "magnetic field" comments, they came from 2 different Jobo
techs and as far as I can tell were said in all seriousness. Here is my
email to Jobo:


Someone will have to explain the theoretical physics involved with magnetic
field-processor rotation solution. It should be good.

All I can say is I've been processing sheet film in a Jobo 3000 series drum for
20 odd years and never had any unevenness.


I have processed everything from 35mm to 8x102 film, using methods

ranging from small tank (inversion), tray, large tank dip and dunk, large
tank nitrogen burst and now rotary processing. I can say with absolute
confidence that I have not gotten decent, even sheet film processing since I
switched from nitrogen burst to a Jobo rotary. I can also state that I have
not gotten even roll film development since I switched from small tank
inversion to a jobo rotary. I shoot landscapes and still lifes that have
large, extremely even, white backgrounds. The uneveness of development is
quite obvious in that environment.
I have experimented countless times in order to correct these

inadequacies. I have had a back and forth dialog with various members of
your technical assistance dept for several years, and have made alterations
to my methodology, as well as many experiments based on their advice. In
spite of all of these efforts, I still have, what your people describe as
3road ruts, on my roll film, and a combination of 3road ruts2 and an effect
that can only be described as pouring a blob of developer onto the center of
un-agitated film and letting it sit there for a minute or two prior to
agitation. These results come from film exposed in my Rolleis, mamiyas and
Fujis. As well as readyloads, 4x5 and 8x10 sheet film in lisco holders, and
8x10 film exposed under the enlarger. I have been told by your tech people
that using kodak film with kodak developers is problematic. I have also
been told ( by 2 different techs) that I should turn the machine 90 degrees
to the earth1s magentic field!!!!
Upon the further advice of your technical assistance people I have

measured the rpm of the processor and have processed roll film at 75rpm, 65
rpm and 50 rpm. I have used distilled water in my developers, distilled
water or tap water for my presoak when d-76 was the dev, no pre soak when
x-tol was the dev. My drums are perfectly level when in operation. I have
used chemical quantities at the recommended amounts, and at more and less
than the recommended amounts. I never process more than 4 rolls of 120
film at a time in a 2563 tank, using 4 reels. I use as much as 1000ml of
developer to do this. I have used d-76 1:1 (1000ml for 4 ?1201s), Xtol
(straight 1000ml for 4 rolls 120), xtol 1:1 (1000ml for 4 rolls of 120). On
the advice of your tech people I do not use stop bath, but use 4 rinses
prior to a 5 minute fix in kodak rapid fix. I have done all of this with
Tmax100, Ilford fp-4plus and Delta 100. I have done all of this with sheet
film, in 300x series tanks. The only difference being that your tech people
recommended 50 rpm as the speed for the 300x expert drums. I use distilled
water for presoaks, for developer and for photo flo. The photo flo is done
after the film is removed from the reels or drum and placed in a glass
beaker filled with the photo flo working solution.
All of my tanks and reels are completely clean, no contaminants

anywhere, as all of my prints are for sale in galleries, I run an archivally
oriented darkroom. There are no, sources of light in my darkroom save the
red light emitted from the jobo itself and the green glow from some gralab
timers. The entrance to the darkroom consists of entering a light tight room
first, with a light trap door, and then passing through a second light trap
door into the darkroom.
As a means of protecting my negatives I have what is probably the most

experienced B&W digital lab in the country, Bow Haus, produce 8x10 tmax100
copy negatives for me. They too have a jobo, they too can not get evenly
processed 8x10 film with it. They have tried sending their film to outside
labs who also use jobo, and they too have had the same problems. They have
not been able to find a single lab that processes 8x10 properly in a jobo.
They now process my 8x10 copy negs by hand in a tray. That has given them
the best results so far.

On 1/24/04 10:24 PM, in article , "Jean-David Beyer"
wrote:


I am not saying that, because I know enough about making dogmatic
statements: the most important of which is that the more dogmatic I get,
the more likely I am to be in error. (Be careful: do not step in the dogma.)

What I am saying is the problems are _not inherent_ in the Jobo system,
since I, among others, get no road ruts (even if carefully measured),
and without heroic measures to ensure their absense.

So it must be something the others are doing. While it is possible that
all those people (however many that may be) are either very sloppy
processors using too little chemistry, people who are trying to develop
negatives in print drums, using old reels, _or something else_, but I
have no clue what the something else might be, and I doubt it can all be
attributed to sloppy processing.

I mistrust those who say to rotate the processor 90 degrees to change
the magnetic fields though. They are either joking, or egregeously
ignorant. It happens that my processor is usually lined up along an
East-West axis (roughly; i.e., parallel to White Street in Shrewsbury,
NJ, but I have used it at 90 degrees to that and it matters not).


  #30  
Old January 25th 04, 07:10 AM
Tom Phillips
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Road ruts with Jobo

BTW, I've even shot stills against a flat background outside using diffuse midday
light Still did not get even density on the background. HAd nothing to do with the
film processing.

Tom Phillips wrote:

Brian Kosoff wrote:

Jean-David,

Here is a copy of an email that I sent to Jobo. But first a few facts
not listed in the email as I thought they were so obvious as to not need
listing. I am using the 2500 series FILM drums, with the proper inner cores
and with 2502 reels for 120 film. For my 4x5 and 8x10 films, I have the
3005 and 3010 expert drums. Maybe you have not seen uneveness in your film
because you do not shoot on totally even, studio lit, white backgrounds.
I do not need to measure the uneveness on my densitometer as it is so
blatantly evident to the eye.


I can't imagine shooting with strobe in a studio setting against any background
(wall, floor, or light table) and getting "even" illumination on the background.
The whole point is to light the subject, not the background, and if you try to
use flat lighting) no way is the light ever going to be 100% even on a
background. Not in my experience.

As for the "magnetic field" comments, they came from 2 different Jobo
techs and as far as I can tell were said in all seriousness. Here is my
email to Jobo:


Someone will have to explain the theoretical physics involved with magnetic
field-processor rotation solution. It should be good.

All I can say is I've been processing sheet film in a Jobo 3000 series drum for
20 odd years and never had any unevenness.


I have processed everything from 35mm to 8x102 film, using methods

ranging from small tank (inversion), tray, large tank dip and dunk, large
tank nitrogen burst and now rotary processing. I can say with absolute
confidence that I have not gotten decent, even sheet film processing since I
switched from nitrogen burst to a Jobo rotary. I can also state that I have
not gotten even roll film development since I switched from small tank
inversion to a jobo rotary. I shoot landscapes and still lifes that have
large, extremely even, white backgrounds. The uneveness of development is
quite obvious in that environment.
I have experimented countless times in order to correct these

inadequacies. I have had a back and forth dialog with various members of
your technical assistance dept for several years, and have made alterations
to my methodology, as well as many experiments based on their advice. In
spite of all of these efforts, I still have, what your people describe as
3road ruts, on my roll film, and a combination of 3road ruts2 and an effect
that can only be described as pouring a blob of developer onto the center of
un-agitated film and letting it sit there for a minute or two prior to
agitation. These results come from film exposed in my Rolleis, mamiyas and
Fujis. As well as readyloads, 4x5 and 8x10 sheet film in lisco holders, and
8x10 film exposed under the enlarger. I have been told by your tech people
that using kodak film with kodak developers is problematic. I have also
been told ( by 2 different techs) that I should turn the machine 90 degrees
to the earth1s magentic field!!!!
Upon the further advice of your technical assistance people I have

measured the rpm of the processor and have processed roll film at 75rpm, 65
rpm and 50 rpm. I have used distilled water in my developers, distilled
water or tap water for my presoak when d-76 was the dev, no pre soak when
x-tol was the dev. My drums are perfectly level when in operation. I have
used chemical quantities at the recommended amounts, and at more and less
than the recommended amounts. I never process more than 4 rolls of 120
film at a time in a 2563 tank, using 4 reels. I use as much as 1000ml of
developer to do this. I have used d-76 1:1 (1000ml for 4 ?1201s), Xtol
(straight 1000ml for 4 rolls 120), xtol 1:1 (1000ml for 4 rolls of 120). On
the advice of your tech people I do not use stop bath, but use 4 rinses
prior to a 5 minute fix in kodak rapid fix. I have done all of this with
Tmax100, Ilford fp-4plus and Delta 100. I have done all of this with sheet
film, in 300x series tanks. The only difference being that your tech people
recommended 50 rpm as the speed for the 300x expert drums. I use distilled
water for presoaks, for developer and for photo flo. The photo flo is done
after the film is removed from the reels or drum and placed in a glass
beaker filled with the photo flo working solution.
All of my tanks and reels are completely clean, no contaminants

anywhere, as all of my prints are for sale in galleries, I run an archivally
oriented darkroom. There are no, sources of light in my darkroom save the
red light emitted from the jobo itself and the green glow from some gralab
timers. The entrance to the darkroom consists of entering a light tight room
first, with a light trap door, and then passing through a second light trap
door into the darkroom.
As a means of protecting my negatives I have what is probably the most

experienced B&W digital lab in the country, Bow Haus, produce 8x10 tmax100
copy negatives for me. They too have a jobo, they too can not get evenly
processed 8x10 film with it. They have tried sending their film to outside
labs who also use jobo, and they too have had the same problems. They have
not been able to find a single lab that processes 8x10 properly in a jobo.
They now process my 8x10 copy negs by hand in a tray. That has given them
the best results so far.

On 1/24/04 10:24 PM, in article , "Jean-David Beyer"
wrote:


I am not saying that, because I know enough about making dogmatic
statements: the most important of which is that the more dogmatic I get,
the more likely I am to be in error. (Be careful: do not step in the dogma.)

What I am saying is the problems are _not inherent_ in the Jobo system,
since I, among others, get no road ruts (even if carefully measured),
and without heroic measures to ensure their absense.

So it must be something the others are doing. While it is possible that
all those people (however many that may be) are either very sloppy
processors using too little chemistry, people who are trying to develop
negatives in print drums, using old reels, _or something else_, but I
have no clue what the something else might be, and I doubt it can all be
attributed to sloppy processing.

I mistrust those who say to rotate the processor 90 degrees to change
the magnetic fields though. They are either joking, or egregeously
ignorant. It happens that my processor is usually lined up along an
East-West axis (roughly; i.e., parallel to White Street in Shrewsbury,
NJ, but I have used it at 90 degrees to that and it matters not).


 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:59 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004-2018 PhotoBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.