Pondering Functionality

I've been thinking about how I would like an ideal camera to operate. My
first "real" camera was an aperture priority SLR, so I generally work that
way.

Now we can set the ISO on a per-shot basis, there's another immediate degree
of freedom to play with. Entry-level Nikon DSLRs frustrate me, because they
don't have a dedicated ISO button. Others, like the Canons suit me because
they do.

I use exposure compensation a lot. On the few DSLRs I have used, setting it
is a PITA - I can't think of many user interfaces more awkward than holding
down a tiny button near the shutter with my index finger, while turning a
wheel with the thumb of the same hand.

So, what would I do differently? I want to be able to control aperture,
shutter speed, ISO, and exposure compensation. Rather than going into the
menu system or rotating a dial to select from a range of a modes (e.g.
aperture or shutter priority), I'd like to be able to directly and
immediately change any one of those parameters, or have the camera set one
or more of them for me.

I'm not saying the following user interface is the best way to implement
that kind of idea, but just for the sake of having something to think
through, imagine a camera with four thumb wheels, one for each parameter.
(The settings are displayed in the perfect way for you, whatever that is.)

The aperture wheel would take you through all the apertures available on the
attached lens, plus "auto".

The shutter speed wheel would give you all the speeds the camera can do,
including "auto" and timed exposure.

The ISO wheel would take you through all the values the camera can do, plus
"auto".

The exposure compensation wheel would work just like they do now. Liveview
would allow "auto" modes to prevent over or under exposure.

With something like that I could emulate conventional full manual; program
auto; I could do a full auto with auto ISO as well; I could do aperture,
shutter speed, and ISO priority; and I could combine things like auto
shutter speed and ISO with manual aperture.

The camera would need some principles to guide it's choices in the auto
modes, like, "try to keep the shutter speed above the reciprocal of the
focal length", and, "keep the noise down".

You could incorporate multiple preset or custom auto modes for each
parameter to give greater control over behaviour. But that's kinda what I'm
trying to get away from - rather than having a bunch of fancy modes that you
have to remember what they do, just roll a wheel to where you want it for
the applicable parameter.

Thoughts? :-)

Wilba wrote:
I've been thinking about how I would like an ideal camera to operate. My
first "real" camera was an aperture priority SLR, so I generally work that
way.

Now we can set the ISO on a per-shot basis, there's another immediate degree
of freedom to play with. Entry-level Nikon DSLRs frustrate me, because they
don't have a dedicated ISO button. Others, like the Canons suit me because
they do.

I use exposure compensation a lot. On the few DSLRs I have used, setting it
is a PITA - I can't think of many user interfaces more awkward than holding
down a tiny button near the shutter with my index finger, while turning a
wheel with the thumb of the same hand.

So, what would I do differently? I want to be able to control aperture,
shutter speed, ISO, and exposure compensation. Rather than going into the
menu system or rotating a dial to select from a range of a modes (e.g.
aperture or shutter priority), I'd like to be able to directly and
immediately change any one of those parameters, or have the camera set one
or more of them for me.

I'm not saying the following user interface is the best way to implement
that kind of idea, but just for the sake of having something to think
through, imagine a camera with four thumb wheels, one for each parameter.
(The settings are displayed in the perfect way for you, whatever that is.)

The aperture wheel would take you through all the apertures available on the
attached lens, plus "auto".

The shutter speed wheel would give you all the speeds the camera can do,
including "auto" and timed exposure.

The ISO wheel would take you through all the values the camera can do, plus
"auto".

The exposure compensation wheel would work just like they do now. Liveview
would allow "auto" modes to prevent over or under exposure.

With something like that I could emulate conventional full manual; program
auto; I could do a full auto with auto ISO as well; I could do aperture,
shutter speed, and ISO priority; and I could combine things like auto
shutter speed and ISO with manual aperture.

The camera would need some principles to guide it's choices in the auto
modes, like, "try to keep the shutter speed above the reciprocal of the
focal length", and, "keep the noise down".

You could incorporate multiple preset or custom auto modes for each
parameter to give greater control over behaviour. But that's kinda what I'm
trying to get away from - rather than having a bunch of fancy modes that you
have to remember what they do, just roll a wheel to where you want it for
the applicable parameter.

Thoughts? :-)

Sounds good. So it goes into aperture priority mode when turning that
dial and shutter priority after changing that dial? Can I have a button
to zero out exposure compensation also?

Paul Furman wrote:
Wilba wrote:

I've been thinking about how I would like an ideal camera to operate. My
first "real" camera was an aperture priority SLR, so I generally work
that way.

Now we can set the ISO on a per-shot basis, there's another immediate
degree of freedom to play with. Entry-level Nikon DSLRs frustrate me,
because they don't have a dedicated ISO button. Others, like the Canons
suit me because they do.

I use exposure compensation a lot. On the few DSLRs I have used, setting
it is a PITA - I can't think of many user interfaces more awkward than
holding down a tiny button near the shutter with my index finger, while
turning a wheel with the thumb of the same hand.

So, what would I do differently? I want to be able to control aperture,
shutter speed, ISO, and exposure compensation. Rather than going into the
menu system or rotating a dial to select from a range of a modes (e.g.
aperture or shutter priority), I'd like to be able to directly and
immediately change any one of those parameters, or have the camera set
one or more of them for me.

I'm not saying the following user interface is the best way to implement
that kind of idea, but just for the sake of having something to think
through, imagine a camera with four thumb wheels, one for each parameter.
(The settings are displayed in the perfect way for you, whatever that
is.)

The aperture wheel would take you through all the apertures available on
the attached lens, plus "auto".

The shutter speed wheel would give you all the speeds the camera can do,
including "auto" and timed exposure.

The ISO wheel would take you through all the values the camera can do,
plus "auto".

The exposure compensation wheel would work just like they do now.
Liveview would allow "auto" modes to prevent over or under exposure.

With something like that I could emulate conventional full manual;
program auto; I could do a full auto with auto ISO as well; I could do
aperture, shutter speed, and ISO priority; and I could combine things
like auto shutter speed and ISO with manual aperture.

The camera would need some principles to guide it's choices in the auto
modes, like, "try to keep the shutter speed above the reciprocal of the
focal length", and, "keep the noise down".

You could incorporate multiple preset or custom auto modes for each
parameter to give greater control over behaviour. But that's kinda what
I'm trying to get away from - rather than having a bunch of fancy modes
that you have to remember what they do, just roll a wheel to where you
want it for the applicable parameter.

Thoughts? :-)

Sounds good. So it goes into aperture priority mode when turning that dial
and shutter priority after changing that dial?

The way I imagine it is like this ... You either set a specific value for
the parameters (e.g. f/8, 1/250th, ISO 100, -0.5ev), or you say to the
camera, choose it for me. It doesn't make any guesses about your intentions.

If you specify something like ISO 100, 1/250th, and auto aperture, you have
conventional shutter priority. If you then turn the aperture from auto to
f/8, you would be in full manual mode - the ISO and shutter speed settings
would only change when you moved their wheels.

Can I have a button to zero out exposure compensation also?

You can have whatever you want :-), but on my ideal camera, you would just
turn the wheel to zero. You could do something like push a wheel in to
zero/cancel that parameter.

On Feb 15, 3:01 am, "Wilba" wrote:
I've been thinking about how I would like an ideal camera to operate. My
first "real" camera was an aperture priority SLR, so I generally work that
way.

Now we can set the ISO on a per-shot basis, there's another immediate degree
of freedom to play with. Entry-level Nikon DSLRs frustrate me, because they
don't have a dedicated ISO button. Others, like the Canons suit me because
they do.

I use exposure compensation a lot. On the few DSLRs I have used, setting it
is a PITA - I can't think of many user interfaces more awkward than holding
down a tiny button near the shutter with my index finger, while turning a
wheel with the thumb of the same hand.

So, what would I do differently? I want to be able to control aperture,
shutter speed, ISO, and exposure compensation. Rather than going into the
menu system or rotating a dial to select from a range of a modes (e.g.
aperture or shutter priority), I'd like to be able to directly and
immediately change any one of those parameters, or have the camera set one
or more of them for me.

I'm not saying the following user interface is the best way to implement
that kind of idea, but just for the sake of having something to think
through, imagine a camera with four thumb wheels, one for each parameter.
(The settings are displayed in the perfect way for you, whatever that is.)

The aperture wheel would take you through all the apertures available on the
attached lens, plus "auto".

The shutter speed wheel would give you all the speeds the camera can do,
including "auto" and timed exposure.

The ISO wheel would take you through all the values the camera can do, plus
"auto".

The exposure compensation wheel would work just like they do now. Liveview
would allow "auto" modes to prevent over or under exposure.

With something like that I could emulate conventional full manual; program
auto; I could do a full auto with auto ISO as well; I could do aperture,
shutter speed, and ISO priority; and I could combine things like auto
shutter speed and ISO with manual aperture.

The camera would need some principles to guide it's choices in the auto
modes, like, "try to keep the shutter speed above the reciprocal of the
focal length", and, "keep the noise down".

You could incorporate multiple preset or custom auto modes for each
parameter to give greater control over behaviour. But that's kinda what I'm
trying to get away from - rather than having a bunch of fancy modes that you
have to remember what they do, just roll a wheel to where you want it for
the applicable parameter.

Thoughts? :-)

Change... that is the biggest issue it would require a fundamental
change in the way millions of people are already using their cameras
and thus make purchasing a "new" design less appealing even if it has
more megapixels. :-)

Rather than the wheels idea, frankly putting enough of them and in
positions and sizes that I would like would be difficult, I would
rather see program modes that I could really program with some fuzzy
logic, i.e. aperture in the 7.1-10 range weighted towards 8, shutter
speed no slower than 1/250th, and the ISO between 100 and 1250
weighted towards the lower numbers. This would be for shooting dog
sports outside with the 70-200. Now the problem with that is "who
would really use it?"

My feeling is that most consumer grade DSLR's (in my mind anything
under $4K) are shot in the P mode or the infamous "green box." You
know the type who just wants to take pictures and not think about what
the camera is really doing. Hasn't a clue about aperture or DOF and
doesn't want to learn. The manufacturers put just enough "extras" on
the camera so people feel "Wow I'll never be able to use all these
features; this must be a great camera."

Wilba wrote:
I've been thinking about how I would like an ideal camera to operate. My
first "real" camera was an aperture priority SLR, so I generally work that
way.

Now we can set the ISO on a per-shot basis, there's another immediate degree
of freedom to play with. Entry-level Nikon DSLRs frustrate me, because they
don't have a dedicated ISO button. Others, like the Canons suit me because
they do.

I use exposure compensation a lot. On the few DSLRs I have used, setting it
is a PITA - I can't think of many user interfaces more awkward than holding
down a tiny button near the shutter with my index finger, while turning a
wheel with the thumb of the same hand.

So, what would I do differently? I want to be able to control aperture,
shutter speed, ISO, and exposure compensation. Rather than going into the
menu system or rotating a dial to select from a range of a modes (e.g.
aperture or shutter priority), I'd like to be able to directly and
immediately change any one of those parameters, or have the camera set one
or more of them for me.

I'm not saying the following user interface is the best way to implement
that kind of idea, but just for the sake of having something to think
through, imagine a camera with four thumb wheels, one for each parameter.
(The settings are displayed in the perfect way for you, whatever that is.)

The aperture wheel would take you through all the apertures available on the
attached lens, plus "auto".

The shutter speed wheel would give you all the speeds the camera can do,
including "auto" and timed exposure.

The ISO wheel would take you through all the values the camera can do, plus
"auto".

The exposure compensation wheel would work just like they do now. Liveview
would allow "auto" modes to prevent over or under exposure.

With something like that I could emulate conventional full manual; program
auto; I could do a full auto with auto ISO as well; I could do aperture,
shutter speed, and ISO priority; and I could combine things like auto
shutter speed and ISO with manual aperture.

The camera would need some principles to guide it's choices in the auto
modes, like, "try to keep the shutter speed above the reciprocal of the
focal length", and, "keep the noise down".

You could incorporate multiple preset or custom auto modes for each
parameter to give greater control over behaviour. But that's kinda what I'm
trying to get away from - rather than having a bunch of fancy modes that you
have to remember what they do, just roll a wheel to where you want it for
the applicable parameter.

Thoughts? :-)

How about putting an aperture ring on the lens? And then
shutter speed on a dial on top of the camera. That means
that you only have to find space for the iso and the exposure
comp adjustments.

But you don't really need an exposure comp ring. The meter
reading needs to be shown in the viewfinder and you do the
exposure comp by either adjusting the aperture or the shutter
speed or the ISO dial.

So we are down to three controls: shutter speed, aperture,
and ISO number. The ISO control can be under your thumb on
the camera back.

Of course you understand that with the exception of the ISO
control, I've just re-invented the old manual film camera.
Lenses today don't come with aperture rings (though they could)
so perhaps it could be built into an extended lens mount done
so that the lens fits into the lens mount, not onto it.

That way only the body has to be changed.

Of course I'd want a full readout in the viewfinder.

As a byproduct, you could, with a suitable screen, also turn
off autofocus and do it manualy, but you can do that now with
most if not all lenses.

--
--- Paul J. Gans

Wilba wrote:

I use exposure compensation a lot. On the few DSLRs I have used, setting it
is a PITA - I can't think of many user interfaces more awkward than holding
down a tiny button near the shutter with my index finger, while turning a
wheel with the thumb of the same hand.

Thoughts? :-)

Try a camera with 2 wheels, like the xxD-series from Canon.
Mode finger wheel Thumb wheel
[] n/a n/a
P shift aperture vs. exposure exposure compensation
Tv exposure time exposure compensation
Av aperture exposure compensation
M exposure time aperture
A-DEP n/a exposure compensation

[] == green square aka full-auto non-technical grandmom compatible mode

-Wolfgang

JimKramer wrote:
Wilba wrote:

I've been thinking about how I would like an ideal camera to operate. My
first "real" camera was an aperture priority SLR, so I generally work
that
way.

Now we can set the ISO on a per-shot basis, there's another immediate
degree
of freedom to play with. Entry-level Nikon DSLRs frustrate me, because
they
don't have a dedicated ISO button. Others, like the Canons suit me
because
they do.

I use exposure compensation a lot. On the few DSLRs I have used, setting
it
is a PITA - I can't think of many user interfaces more awkward than
holding
down a tiny button near the shutter with my index finger, while turning a
wheel with the thumb of the same hand.

So, what would I do differently? I want to be able to control aperture,
shutter speed, ISO, and exposure compensation. Rather than going into the
menu system or rotating a dial to select from a range of a modes (e.g.
aperture or shutter priority), I'd like to be able to directly and
immediately change any one of those parameters, or have the camera set
one
or more of them for me.

I'm not saying the following user interface is the best way to implement
that kind of idea, but just for the sake of having something to think
through, imagine a camera with four thumb wheels, one for each parameter.
(The settings are displayed in the perfect way for you, whatever that
is.)

The aperture wheel would take you through all the apertures available on
the
attached lens, plus "auto".

The shutter speed wheel would give you all the speeds the camera can do,
including "auto" and timed exposure.

The ISO wheel would take you through all the values the camera can do,
plus
"auto".

The exposure compensation wheel would work just like they do now.
Liveview
would allow "auto" modes to prevent over or under exposure.

With something like that I could emulate conventional full manual;
program
auto; I could do a full auto with auto ISO as well; I could do aperture,
shutter speed, and ISO priority; and I could combine things like auto
shutter speed and ISO with manual aperture.

The camera would need some principles to guide it's choices in the auto
modes, like, "try to keep the shutter speed above the reciprocal of the
focal length", and, "keep the noise down".

You could incorporate multiple preset or custom auto modes for each
parameter to give greater control over behaviour. But that's kinda what
I'm
trying to get away from - rather than having a bunch of fancy modes that
you
have to remember what they do, just roll a wheel to where you want it for
the applicable parameter.

Thoughts? :-)

Change... that is the biggest issue it would require a fundamental
change in the way millions of people are already using their cameras
and thus make purchasing a "new" design less appealing even if it has
more megapixels. :-)

Oh, didn't I say ... it would have a reasonably low number of huge pixels,
for great, low-noise, low light performance. :-)

Rather than the wheels idea, frankly putting enough of them and in
positions and sizes that I would like would be difficult,

Yes, illustrating with wheels is just to give people the oportunity to think
it through with a familiar user interface mechanism. I'd probably use
up-and-down buttons or rockers. Rockers would be good because you can have a
press-in operation for things like zeroing exposure compensation.

I would
rather see program modes that I could really program with some fuzzy
logic, i.e. aperture in the 7.1-10 range weighted towards 8, shutter
speed no slower than 1/250th, and the ISO between 100 and 1250
weighted towards the lower numbers. This would be for shooting dog
sports outside with the 70-200. Now the problem with that is "who
would really use it?"

Exactly. :-) I generally (not just in photography), find myself going back
to simple or manual control modes because the designer of a fancy function
has the made the wrong assumptions about how I want the device to behave,
and I have to outsmart it to get what I want.

My feeling is that most consumer grade DSLR's (in my mind anything
under $4K) are shot in the P mode or the infamous "green box." You
know the type who just wants to take pictures and not think about what
the camera is really doing. Hasn't a clue about aperture or DOF and
doesn't want to learn. The manufacturers put just enough "extras" on
the camera so people feel "Wow I'll never be able to use all these
features; this must be a great camera."

Yeah, but I'm talking about what _I_ want, not what the camera manufacturers
or the ignorant want. :-)

Paul J Gans wrote:
Wilba wrote:

I've been thinking about how I would like an ideal camera to operate. My
first "real" camera was an aperture priority SLR, so I generally work that
way.

Now we can set the ISO on a per-shot basis, there's another immediate
degree
of freedom to play with. Entry-level Nikon DSLRs frustrate me, because
they
don't have a dedicated ISO button. Others, like the Canons suit me because
they do.

I use exposure compensation a lot. On the few DSLRs I have used, setting
it
is a PITA - I can't think of many user interfaces more awkward than
holding
down a tiny button near the shutter with my index finger, while turning a
wheel with the thumb of the same hand.

So, what would I do differently? I want to be able to control aperture,
shutter speed, ISO, and exposure compensation. Rather than going into the
menu system or rotating a dial to select from a range of a modes (e.g.
aperture or shutter priority), I'd like to be able to directly and
immediately change any one of those parameters, or have the camera set one
or more of them for me.

I'm not saying the following user interface is the best way to implement
that kind of idea, but just for the sake of having something to think
through, imagine a camera with four thumb wheels, one for each parameter.
(The settings are displayed in the perfect way for you, whatever that is.)

The aperture wheel would take you through all the apertures available on
the
attached lens, plus "auto".

The shutter speed wheel would give you all the speeds the camera can do,
including "auto" and timed exposure.

The ISO wheel would take you through all the values the camera can do,
plus
"auto".

The exposure compensation wheel would work just like they do now. Liveview
would allow "auto" modes to prevent over or under exposure.

With something like that I could emulate conventional full manual; program
auto; I could do a full auto with auto ISO as well; I could do aperture,
shutter speed, and ISO priority; and I could combine things like auto
shutter speed and ISO with manual aperture.

The camera would need some principles to guide it's choices in the auto
modes, like, "try to keep the shutter speed above the reciprocal of the
focal length", and, "keep the noise down".

You could incorporate multiple preset or custom auto modes for each
parameter to give greater control over behaviour. But that's kinda what
I'm
trying to get away from - rather than having a bunch of fancy modes that
you
have to remember what they do, just roll a wheel to where you want it for
the applicable parameter.

Thoughts? :-)

How about putting an aperture ring on the lens? And then
shutter speed on a dial on top of the camera. That means
that you only have to find space for the iso and the exposure
comp adjustments.

But you don't really need an exposure comp ring. The meter
reading needs to be shown in the viewfinder and you do the
exposure comp by either adjusting the aperture or the shutter
speed or the ISO dial.

That system doesn't incorporate the idea that I described. It's not about
the user interface, it's about the functionality.

So we are down to three controls: shutter speed, aperture,
and ISO number. The ISO control can be under your thumb on
the camera back.

Of course you understand that with the exception of the ISO
control, I've just re-invented the old manual film camera.
Lenses today don't come with aperture rings (though they could)
so perhaps it could be built into an extended lens mount done
so that the lens fits into the lens mount, not onto it.

That way only the body has to be changed.

Of course I'd want a full readout in the viewfinder.

As a byproduct, you could, with a suitable screen, also turn
off autofocus and do it manualy, but you can do that now with
most if not all lenses.

Wolfgang Weisselberg wrote:
Wilba wrote:

I use exposure compensation a lot. On the few DSLRs I have used, setting
it
is a PITA - I can't think of many user interfaces more awkward than
holding
down a tiny button near the shutter with my index finger, while turning a
wheel with the thumb of the same hand.

Thoughts? :-)

Try a camera with 2 wheels, like the xxD-series from Canon.
Mode finger wheel Thumb wheel
[] n/a n/a
P shift aperture vs. exposure exposure compensation
Tv exposure time exposure compensation
Av aperture exposure compensation
M exposure time aperture
A-DEP n/a exposure compensation

[] == green square aka full-auto non-technical grandmom compatible mode

Can you change the ISO with one touch? Do they do "auto ISO"?

It's not about the wheels. :-)

Wilba wrote:
Wolfgang Weisselberg wrote:
Wilba wrote:

I use exposure compensation a lot. On the few DSLRs I have used, setting
it
is a PITA - I can't think of many user interfaces more awkward than
holding
down a tiny button near the shutter with my index finger, while turning a
wheel with the thumb of the same hand.

Thoughts? :-)
Try a camera with 2 wheels, like the xxD-series from Canon.
Mode finger wheel Thumb wheel
[] n/a n/a
P shift aperture vs. exposure exposure compensation
Tv exposure time exposure compensation
Av aperture exposure compensation
M exposure time aperture
A-DEP n/a exposure compensation

[] == green square aka full-auto non-technical grandmom compatible mode

Can you change the ISO with one touch? Do they do "auto ISO"?

It's not about the wheels. :-)



On the Canon 40d, changing ISO is a two step process. The ISO button is
directly behind the finger wheel - tap it with your index finger. You
then use the finger wheel to change the ISO, same finger. Auto ISO is
directly below 100 ISO.

--

Len