Pondering Functionality

Match-needle metering, center weighted or spot switchable.

Viewfinder good enough that accurate manual focusing was possible.

dial for ISO.

l v wrote:
Wilba wrote:
Wolfgang Weisselberg wrote:
Wilba wrote:

I use exposure compensation a lot. On the few DSLRs I have used,
setting it
is a PITA - I can't think of many user interfaces more awkward than
holding
down a tiny button near the shutter with my index finger, while turning
a
wheel with the thumb of the same hand.

Thoughts? :-)
Try a camera with 2 wheels, like the xxD-series from Canon.
Mode finger wheel Thumb wheel
[] n/a n/a
P shift aperture vs. exposure exposure compensation
Tv exposure time exposure compensation
Av aperture exposure compensation
M exposure time aperture
A-DEP n/a exposure compensation

[] == green square aka full-auto non-technical grandmom compatible mode

Can you change the ISO with one touch? Do they do "auto ISO"?

It's not about the wheels. :-)

On the Canon 40d, changing ISO is a two step process. The ISO button is
directly behind the finger wheel - tap it with your index finger. You
then use the finger wheel to change the ISO, same finger. Auto ISO is
directly below 100 ISO.

Ah, thanks, I see it now. If instead of the three buttons to the left of the
ISO button there were an aperture button, a shutter speed button, and an
exposure compensation button, that would be a suitable user interface to
provide the functionality I want.

Wilba wrote:
Wolfgang Weisselberg wrote:
Wilba wrote:

I use exposure compensation a lot. On the few DSLRs I have used,
setting it is a PITA - I can't think of many user interfaces more
awkward than holding down a tiny button near the shutter with my
index finger, while turning a wheel with the thumb of the same hand.

Try a camera with 2 wheels, like the xxD-series from Canon.
Mode finger wheel Thumb wheel
[] n/a n/a
P shift aperture vs. exposure exposure compensation
Tv exposure time exposure compensation
Av aperture exposure compensation
M exposure time aperture
A-DEP n/a exposure compensation

[] == green square aka full-auto non-technical grandmom compatible mode

Can you change the ISO with one touch?

Define "one touch".
Explain why "one touch" is more important to ISO than
aperture/exposure/shift/comp. Explain how analog photographers
survived.

Do they do "auto ISO"?

[] does.

It's not about the wheels. :-)

It's about interface. And what you described up there isn't.
An interface, that is.

-Wolfgang

On Feb 15, 6:46*pm, "Wilba" wrote:
Snip

Yeah, but I'm talking about what _I_ want, not what the camera manufacturers
or the ignorant want. :-)

Well that simplifies everything. They just need to spend more in
marketing to convince you that they already offer everything you could
ever want in a camera. :-)

Wolfgang Weisselberg wrote:
Wilba wrote:
Wolfgang Weisselberg wrote:
Wilba wrote:

I use exposure compensation a lot. On the few DSLRs I have used,
setting it is a PITA - I can't think of many user interfaces more
awkward than holding down a tiny button near the shutter with my
index finger, while turning a wheel with the thumb of the same hand.

Try a camera with 2 wheels, like the xxD-series from Canon.
Mode finger wheel Thumb wheel
[] n/a n/a
P shift aperture vs. exposure exposure compensation
Tv exposure time exposure compensation
Av aperture exposure compensation
M exposure time aperture
A-DEP n/a exposure compensation

[] == green square aka full-auto non-technical grandmom compatible mode

Can you change the ISO with one touch?

Define "one touch".
Explain why "one touch" is more important to ISO than
aperture/exposure/shift/comp.

Sometimes when the opportunity for a fast action shot turns up
unexpectedly while you were carefully shooting low ISO high-quality
images, you want to be able to change as fast as possible to a high
ISO and shutter priority before the opportunity has gone.

Explain how analogue photographers survived.

To switch rapidly from high quality tripod landscape to fast action
capture they carried two cameras loaded with different films.

--
Chris Malcolm DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

Wilba wrote:
l v wrote:
Wilba wrote:
Wolfgang Weisselberg wrote:
Wilba wrote:
I use exposure compensation a lot. On the few DSLRs I have used,
setting it
is a PITA - I can't think of many user interfaces more awkward than
holding
down a tiny button near the shutter with my index finger, while turning
a
wheel with the thumb of the same hand.
Thoughts? :-)
Try a camera with 2 wheels, like the xxD-series from Canon.
Mode finger wheel Thumb wheel
[] n/a n/a
P shift aperture vs. exposure exposure compensation
Tv exposure time exposure compensation
Av aperture exposure compensation
M exposure time aperture
A-DEP n/a exposure compensation

[] == green square aka full-auto non-technical grandmom compatible mode
Can you change the ISO with one touch? Do they do "auto ISO"?

It's not about the wheels. :-)
On the Canon 40d, changing ISO is a two step process. The ISO button is
directly behind the finger wheel - tap it with your index finger. You
then use the finger wheel to change the ISO, same finger. Auto ISO is
directly below 100 ISO.

Ah, thanks, I see it now. If instead of the three buttons to the left of the
ISO button there were an aperture button, a shutter speed button, and an
exposure compensation button, that would be a suitable user interface to
provide the functionality I want.



I think you are missing the point of what Wolfgang posted. I think
you'll find that Canon did a better design than what you are suggesting.

Exposure comp button is the same button as ISO, use the thumb wheel vs
the finger wheel.

Depending on the camera's mode (manual, shutter priority, aperture
priority, etc) the finger wheel and thumb wheel make all of the
necessary changes you are wanting do do with individual buttons.

When in Av (aperture mode), the finger wheel adjusts the aperture
setting and the thumb wheel adjusts the exposure comp - letting the
camera calculate the shutter speed.

When in Tv (shutter mode), the finger wheel adjusts the shutter speed
and the thumb wheel adjusts the exposure comp - letting the camera
calculate the aperture.

When in P (program mode), the finger wheel shifts the exposure (both
shutter and aperture) keeping the exposure the same.

When in M (manual mode), the finger wheel adjusts the shutter speed and
the thumb wheel adjusts the aperture.

Tap the shutter without taking a photo and your settings are set.

--

Len

Wolfgang Weisselberg wrote:
Wilba wrote:
Wolfgang Weisselberg wrote:
Wilba wrote:

I use exposure compensation a lot. On the few DSLRs I have used,
setting it is a PITA - I can't think of many user interfaces more
awkward than holding down a tiny button near the shutter with my
index finger, while turning a wheel with the thumb of the same hand.

Try a camera with 2 wheels, like the xxD-series from Canon.
Mode finger wheel Thumb wheel
[] n/a n/a
P shift aperture vs. exposure exposure compensation
Tv exposure time exposure compensation
Av aperture exposure compensation
M exposure time aperture
A-DEP n/a exposure compensation

[] == green square aka full-auto non-technical grandmom compatible mode

Can you change the ISO with one touch?

Define "one touch".

Touching one control once to effect a change. Contrast with "two touch", for
instance, holding down a button while turning a wheel.

Explain why "one touch" is more important to ISO than
aperture/exposure/shift/comp. Explain how analog photographers
survived.

The functionality I described in the original post is best supported by a
user interface with one touch controls.

Do they do "auto ISO"?

[] does.

Good.

It's not about the wheels. :-)

It's about interface. And what you described up there isn't.
An interface, that is.

We're not talking about the same "it". (And I'm not interested in yours.)
:-)

JimKramer wrote:
Wilba wrote:
Snip

Yeah, but I'm talking about what _I_ want, not what the camera
manufacturers or the ignorant want. :-)

Well that simplifies everything. They just need to spend more in
marketing to convince you that they already offer everything you
could ever want in a camera. :-)

I have a better idea. Give me my share of the marketting budget to spend on
a new camera. :-)

l v wrote:
Wilba wrote:
l v wrote:
Wilba wrote:

Can you change the ISO with one touch [on a 40D]?
Do they [40Ds] do "auto ISO"?

It's not about the wheels. :-)

On the Canon 40d, changing ISO is a two step process. The ISO
button is directly behind the finger wheel - tap it with your index
finger.
You then use the finger wheel to change the ISO, same finger. Auto
ISO is directly below 100 ISO.

Ah, thanks, I see it now. If instead of the three buttons to the left of
the ISO button there were an aperture button, a shutter speed button, and
an exposure compensation button, that would be a suitable user interface
to provide the functionality I want.

I think you are missing the point of what Wolfgang posted.

I think Wolfgang is missing the point of what I posted. :-)

I think you'll find that Canon did a better design than what you are
suggesting.

OK, let's acknowledge that we disagree and see if something interesting
comes of it ...

Exposure comp button is the same button as ISO, use the thumb wheel vs the
finger wheel.

Depending on the camera's mode (manual, shutter priority, aperture
priority, etc) the finger wheel and thumb wheel make all of the necessary
changes you are wanting do do with individual buttons.

When in Av (aperture mode), the finger wheel adjusts the aperture setting
and the thumb wheel adjusts the exposure comp - letting the camera
calculate the shutter speed.

When in Tv (shutter mode), the finger wheel adjusts the shutter speed and
the thumb wheel adjusts the exposure comp - letting the camera calculate
the aperture.

When in P (program mode), the finger wheel shifts the exposure (both
shutter and aperture) keeping the exposure the same.

When in M (manual mode), the finger wheel adjusts the shutter speed and
the thumb wheel adjusts the aperture.

Tap the shutter without taking a photo and your settings are set.

I don't dispute that a 40D and my fantasy camera can be set up to operate
the same way. The difference that makes a difference is how you get there.

The key thing in what you said is, "Depending on the camera's mode". I'm
suggesting in effect abandoning the conventional modes, and directly
controlling the four parameters independently at the user interface level.
The four parameters are only in any sense dependent when any one or more are
set to "auto", and the camera is given the responsibility for chosing the
parameter's value.

I don't want to have to remember and think my way through all the
information contained in your preceding seven paragraphs. I want to change
the four parameters directly according to my whim.

In many cases doing that won't be more or less efficient than achieving the
same effect with conventional modes. For instance, if you want to go from
aperture priority to shutter priority (without any change to ISO and
compensation), on a conventional camera you would turn the mode dial to
shutter priority and set the desired shutter speed, and on mine you would
set the aperture to auto and set the desired shutter speed. In both cases
you need two touches.

I see current DSLR user interface design as being stuck on an evolutionary
path. With manual cameras, you set the shutter speed and aperture to suit
the fixed film sensitivity, and made exposure compensations by fudging the
shutter speed or aperture.

With built-in meters came the ability to have a mode in which the shutter
speed or aperture was chosen by the camera. Exposure compensation could be
achieved by fudging the film sensitivity.

With more electronic control came the ability to have the camera choose
either shutter speed, aperture, or both. It made sense to label each of
those options as a "mode".

Now that sensitivity is as flexible as shutter speed or aperture, you need
to define and operate 2x2x2 = 8 distinct modes (manual or automatic for
three parameters). Rather than remember a three-dimensional matrix of modes,
and which user interface control does what in each mode, I want to simply
set the desired value for each of the four parameters, via dedicated
controls.

Wilba wrote:
Wolfgang Weisselberg wrote:
Wilba wrote:
Wolfgang Weisselberg wrote:
Wilba wrote:

Can you change the ISO with one touch?

Define "one touch".

Touching one control once to effect a change. Contrast with "two touch", for
instance, holding down a button while turning a wheel.

Then it's one touch: you press the iso-botton once, twirl the
back wheel and there you go. No need to hold down any button.

I guess you want to rework/expand your one-touch/two-touch with
things like "modal control".

Explain why "one touch" is more important to ISO than
aperture/exposure/shift/comp. Explain how analog photographers
survived.

The functionality I described in the original post is best supported by a
user interface with one touch controls.

Proof?

-Wolfgang