Newbie question about field cameras that accept 120 rolls

Hello to you all!
I've lurked around for a while, and now I'm here to ask my first
question...

I have some MF gear, and would like to go larger. I'm evaluating some
6x9 MF gear, but I'm intrigued by camera movements! I'm not ready for
4x5": no labs around here process it anymore (I should mail the film),
plus I'd like to "step in" with a simpler 120-compatible camera.
So the question: I know there are some field cameras that work with 120
roll film (6x9cm frames), but I don't know what to look for, so I'm
asking for advice... I'd like to go for a 2nd hand setup, with let's say
$1000 for a "complete" set (camera, plates, back and, initially, a
single wideangle lens). I'd like to get a good quality glass (I'd use it
mainly for landscapes and urbanscapes).

Any advice (complete with "buyer beware" notes, if you mind)? :-)

Many thanks!!

Fernando

So the question: I know there are some field cameras that work with 120
roll film (6x9cm frames), but I don't know what to look for, so I'm
asking for advice..

There are cameras with movements that are dedicated to 120 roll film
(usually referred to as 2x3 cameras) and there are 4x5 cameras, all of
which (AFAIK) will accept some type of roll film holder in various 120 film
formats (6x6, 6x7, 6x9 etc.). Some people (I'm one) think there's no
particular advantage to buying a 2x3 camera for use in the field because
they aren't all that much smaller or lighter than a comparable 4x5 field
camera and the latter gives you the option of moving up to 4x5 some day if
you ever get the urge. Others of course disagree.

So your choices are a 2x3 camera or a 4x5 camera with roll film holder. 4x5
cameras come with two types of backs, those with spring backs and those with
"Graflok" or "international" backs. Cameras with a spring back limit your
choice of roll film holders to the type that slide into the camera
underneath the ground glass. Calumet makes such holders in various 120
formats. Cameras with Graflok backs give you a wider selection of roll film
holder brands. OTOH, the type that slide under the ground glass are more
convenient to use since you don't need to remove and replace the ground
glass frame every time you make a photograph.

All of this is a slight oversimplification but I think it's sufficiently
accurate for your purposes. I've deliberately not used the term "field
camera" because there are quite a few cameras small and light enough to be
taken into the field that aren't "field" cameras in the traditional sense of
that term..

If you're looking for information about specific brands, I'd suggest going
to www.largeformatphotography.info and scrolling down to the sections that
contain information and reviews of numerous cameras. Then post questions
here or there about specific brands that interest you.


"Fernando" wrote in message
...
Hello to you all!
I've lurked around for a while, and now I'm here to ask my first
question...

I have some MF gear, and would like to go larger. I'm evaluating some
6x9 MF gear, but I'm intrigued by camera movements! I'm not ready for
4x5": no labs around here process it anymore (I should mail the film),
plus I'd like to "step in" with a simpler 120-compatible camera.
So the question: I know there are some field cameras that work with 120
roll film (6x9cm frames), but I don't know what to look for, so I'm
asking for advice... I'd like to go for a 2nd hand setup, with let's say
$1000 for a "complete" set (camera, plates, back and, initially, a
single wideangle lens). I'd like to get a good quality glass (I'd use it
mainly for landscapes and urbanscapes).

Any advice (complete with "buyer beware" notes, if you mind)? :-)

Many thanks!!

Fernando

"Fernando" wrote in message
...
[...]

I'm afraid I might have to contradict Joseph Burke's suggestion to use a 6x9
back on a Linhof Technika 4x5 because you specified a _wide angle_ lens.
IMHO the Technika's particular shortcoming is the way one has to wrestle it
into a configuration that works with lenses wide enough for 6x9, and then
you are left with few movements.

Fernando,
I own a Linhof Technicka 4x5 that is terrific but they aren't cheap and
several 4x5 thru 11x14 inch cameras. I mention the Linhof 4x5 as I have a
6x9 Roll film back for it though never use it. I would suggest you look for
a 4x5 (I'm not suggesting the Linhof in particular !!) that accepts a 6x9
roll film back so you can try 4x5 as well. Black
and White 4x5 sheet film is so very easy to process yourself and the results
are fabulous. Consider this just one opinion but consider buying a camera
that can shoot both 6x9 roll AND 4x5 sheets so if you wish to try 4x5 you'll
need nothing else as opposed to trying 6x9 and always wishing to try 4x5 but
having to buy another camera and the extra expense associated with that.
Joseph Burke
Linhof Master Tech 4x5 w 6x9 rollfilm back

"Fernando" wrote in message
...
Hello to you all!
I've lurked around for a while, and now I'm here to ask my first
question...

I have some MF gear, and would like to go larger. I'm evaluating some
6x9 MF gear, but I'm intrigued by camera movements! I'm not ready for
4x5": no labs around here process it anymore (I should mail the film),
plus I'd like to "step in" with a simpler 120-compatible camera.
So the question: I know there are some field cameras that work with 120
roll film (6x9cm frames), but I don't know what to look for, so I'm
asking for advice... I'd like to go for a 2nd hand setup, with let's say
$1000 for a "complete" set (camera, plates, back and, initially, a
single wideangle lens). I'd like to get a good quality glass (I'd use it
mainly for landscapes and urbanscapes).

Any advice (complete with "buyer beware" notes, if you mind)? :-)

Many thanks!!

Fernando

Look at the Horseman "technical" cameras...ebay may be a good place to start
getting an idea of their capabilities and prices. They seem reasonable right
now.
I own a Horseman 980 and it's been one of the most versatile and handy pieces
of equipment that I've ever owned. I also have 4X5 equipment and, while I can
see the logic of buying a 4X5 sysytem with the idea that you can always "shoot
down" by getting medium format backs for it, it seems that having two seperate
(sort of...I'll qualify that later) systems isn't as bad or as expensive as it
might seem.
Who knows...you may want to stop at medium format and not venture into a larger
format. It's no secret that it's easier and more economical to shoot roll film
and I'll leave it to you (and the usual group of LF pundits) to decide if the
increase in film area has that much of an effect on the quality of the final
product. Good medium format technique can yield results as good as (or better
than) a lot of LF work that I've seen. I have heard the argument that the only
real reason to shoot sheet film is that you retain the ability to process each
sheet individually in order to take full advantage of the Zone System or any
similar such system of exposure and development.
Roll film is easier to obtain, available in every emulsion that LF film is
available in (and a few more) and can be processed in a tank and reels...no
need to set up to process sheet film in your darkroom and that can run the
gamut from simply sloshing them around in a tray in the dark to purchasing a
Jobo system (think more $$$). Consider the price difference and availability
between an enlarger capable of MF vs LF. It just doesn't stop with the
camera...there are more costs involved; you have to decide if it's worth it.
In all fairness, many people do come down on the side of LF and, as they say on
Seinfeld, "Not that that's a bad thing." I shoot LF myself when I feel that
it's appropriate but i've been doing this for a while and have a couple of
systems at my disposal and thus the luxury (and I do consider it a luxury) of
being able to make the choice.
I do move the lenses that were bought for LF (a 150mm and a 210mm) over to the
Horseman once and a while. I've been told that the 65mm and the 90mm that I
got with the Horseman will just about cover 4X5 (they did make a 4X5 adapter
back for the Horseman) with no movements but I haven't had the need to try
this. I actually find that the longer lenses are better for landscape
photography because their field of view is more like what the human eye
selectively sees...just my opinion.
All of this is a longwinded way of suggesting looking at the Horseman and
suggesting that you take a critical look at your needs and your bank account.
You can always aquire a 4X5 camera when you have become rich and successful
from the sales of your work (don't quit your day job, kid!) and if you're
making a go at making this a business, you'll have the comforting thought that
any new equipment that you buy is tax-deductible (a fact that has comforted my
wife and has allowed me to buy my gear with somewhat less criticism from the
homefront).

Heresy! Blasphemer! Just an reasoned, personal opinion. Lets keep it
respectful and on topic, please.

best,

argon

incidentally, (I love telling this story) I bought the Horseman with a 65, a 90
and two 6X7 backs when I had originally gone to the camera store to buy a shift
Nikkor lens. The Nikkor was something like $700 bucks new and the Horseman
system (which had been just traded in by a large midwest university) was
$500...guess what I went home with? Such a deal!

a

"Argon3" wrote in message
...
[...] Good medium format technique can yield results as good as (or
better
than) a lot of LF work that I've seen. [...]

Meticulous technique and a modest print size can make that true.

Another clear advantage to roll-film is portability. It's so much easier to
carry a pocket full of film than 10 4x5 film holders, and with three backs,
you can still do adequate adjusted development. Unfortunately, quality
rollfilm backs are spendy.

On 11 Nov 2004 14:24:17 GMT, (Argon3) wrote:

Thank you all!

Very interesting answers, you are an amazingly helpful group of
people! :-)
Please keep the advices coming!

A reply to Argon:

Look at the Horseman "technical" cameras...ebay may be a good place to start
getting an idea of their capabilities and prices. They seem reasonable right
now.

I'll look into that. I had the idea that Horseman cameras were very
expensive even used, but it's about time that I check on eBay.

Who knows...you may want to stop at medium format and not venture into a larger
format.

Yes, I have reasons to stick with 120 roll film at the moment. I may
expose them to better qualify my position:

1) I love shooting slides (Velvia 100F, Kodak E100G expecially) and BW
(TMax 100 and 400 expecially). I have my 120 slide rolls processed by
a reliable pro lab that even manages push processing with good success
(a rarity here in Rome). I process BW at home (have done it for the
last 20 years or so), I have a 120 tank.

2) I don't print chemically: I print digitally (via a lab equipped
with Lightjet machines), after scanning my 120 film with a Polaroid
SS120 filmscanner, that reads up to 6x9. I know, I'm not a purist :-(
but I love the control this workflow brings me too much!

3) I think I've understood (but I may very well be wrong!) that
shooting 6x9 helps with a larger choice of lenses, for the cover
circle is so small that many lenses have good cover even with ample
movements. That is, having considered the different "FOV cropping
factor" that the smaller frame imposes (so I'll have to do with
shorter focals in order to get my beloved wide FOV).

That said, of course I cannot exclude that I'd like to try the "real"
Large Format one day. On the contrary, I feel very inclined to do so!!
:-D

You can always aquire a 4X5 camera when you have become rich and successful
from the sales of your work (don't quit your day job, kid!) and if you're
making a go at making this a business, you'll have the comforting thought that
any new equipment that you buy is tax-deductible (a fact that has comforted my
wife and has allowed me to buy my gear with somewhat less criticism from the
homefront).

Eheh! Well, my days as a pro photographer are unfortunately over (as
for now, I only cover some rock concert with a DSLR and occasionally
do some business events), after having been in the commercial (mainly
interiors: hotels, gyms, shops and the likes) photo business for a
while I'm now in the IT industry (sadly... but it's a long story). But
who knows! :-)

Thanks to all of you!

Fernando

Calumet sells Cambo rollfilm backs that will fit in any 4X5 camera.
They just are inserted like a regular sheet film holder. They come in
either 6X7 or 6X9, or perhaps even 6X12 formats and cost under $300.
I've got the 6X7 model and it works very well when I want to lighten my
load and yet have my view camera. With 180, 90, and 65 lenses, it's a
good three-lens kit that fits in a compact backpack case. It is very
important to follow the directions inside the rollfilm back with regard
to loading the film correctly. May take some practice with a junk roll,
but once you get the hang of it, it's fine.

Jos. Burke wrote:

Fernando,
I own a Linhof Technicka 4x5 that is terrific but they aren't cheap and
several 4x5 thru 11x14 inch cameras. I mention the Linhof 4x5 as I have a
6x9 Roll film back for it though never use it. I would suggest you look for
a 4x5 (I'm not suggesting the Linhof in particular !!) that accepts a 6x9
roll film back so you can try 4x5 as well. Black
and White 4x5 sheet film is so very easy to process yourself and the results
are fabulous. Consider this just one opinion but consider buying a camera
that can shoot both 6x9 roll AND 4x5 sheets so if you wish to try 4x5 you'll
need nothing else as opposed to trying 6x9 and always wishing to try 4x5 but
having to buy another camera and the extra expense associated with that.
Joseph Burke
Linhof Master Tech 4x5 w 6x9 rollfilm back

"Fernando" wrote in message
. ..


Hello to you all!
I've lurked around for a while, and now I'm here to ask my first
question...

I have some MF gear, and would like to go larger. I'm evaluating some
6x9 MF gear, but I'm intrigued by camera movements! I'm not ready for
4x5": no labs around here process it anymore (I should mail the film),
plus I'd like to "step in" with a simpler 120-compatible camera.
So the question: I know there are some field cameras that work with 120
roll film (6x9cm frames), but I don't know what to look for, so I'm
asking for advice... I'd like to go for a 2nd hand setup, with let's say
$1000 for a "complete" set (camera, plates, back and, initially, a
single wideangle lens). I'd like to get a good quality glass (I'd use it
mainly for landscapes and urbanscapes).

Any advice (complete with "buyer beware" notes, if you mind)? :-)

Many thanks!!

Fernando

"LR Kalajainen" wrote in message
...
Calumet sells Cambo rollfilm backs that will fit in any 4X5 camera. They
just are inserted like a regular sheet film holder. They come in either
6X7 or 6X9, or perhaps even 6X12 formats and cost under $300.

You must mean the price for used backs. The least expensive rollfilm back at
Calumet is the Cambo at $399.99US, and the least expensive at B&H is the
Wista at $370US (special order only at B&H)

Or is there some special hidden discount at Calumet?

"Jos. Burke" wrote in message
...

snipped
Black
and White 4x5 sheet film is so very easy to process yourself and the
results
are fabulous.

Having developed much 35mm over the years, and recently some 4x5 sheet film
(Tri-X & FP4+) I'm intrigued by your use of the word "fabulous" with regard
to the 4x5 process. To me, processing the 4x5 was just another B&W process
where if necessary I could develop each exposure individually. What am I
missing?

--
M Stewart
Milton Keynes, UK
http://www.megalith.freeserve.co.uk/oddimage.htm