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How to get good black & white from digital?



 
 
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  #61  
Old October 22nd 07, 08:44 PM posted to rec.photo.equipment.35mm,aus.photo
Harry Lockwood
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Posts: 158
Default How to get good black & white from digital?

In article . com,
UC wrote:

On Oct 14, 4:18 am, wrote:
1 -
2 -
3 -
4 -
?

Oh, you were expecting *me* to supply some tips..? No, I'm a no-talent
loser in this area!

I was hoping to hear from those who have tried, successfully or
otherwise, to get high quality black and white results from a digital
workflow. I think it's a given that the printer is a big issue, and
that you need a lot of resolution (eg 200 ppi is probably not going to
suffice!). But I would like to concentrate on the *capture stage* -
what is it that makes a superb b&w image?

A great b&w has a 'look' to it that is often referred to, but rarely
is an attempt made to explain *what gives it that quality* - is it the
tone curve, the dynamic range, the nature of the media, ... I'm a bit
sick of hearing "you just can't do quality b&w with digital" - while I
agree that seems to be mostly true, I want to know *exactly why*...!!!

Seems to me that if the issues can be defined, then maybe there are
some workarounds and techniques that will help to let us digital-geeks
begin to explore the final frontier... If the issues *can't* be
defined, then that also tells me something.. (O;

If I've missed a good site on this topic, *please* enlighten me!!

PS - The answer "use film" - while technically correct - is not quite
the answer I seek...
PPS - Any attempts to answer this thread concentrating specifically on
the issues while avoiding personality clashes, will be greatly
appreciated. (O:


For the original poster: there is an active thread on this subject at
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/D...WhiteThePrint/

It is recommended there that you look at,

http://www.imagenomic.com/products.aspx

for adding the grain common to a number of films.

HFL

--
www.pbase.com/hlockwood
Change hlockwood to hflockwood in email address
  #62  
Old October 23rd 07, 04:51 AM posted to rec.photo.equipment.35mm,aus.photo
Ken Hart
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Posts: 154
Default How to get good black & white from digital?

On Oct 14, 4:18 am, wrote:
1 -
2 -
3 -
4 -
?

Oh, you were expecting *me* to supply some tips..? No, I'm a no-talent
loser in this area!

I was hoping to hear from those who have tried, successfully or
otherwise, to get high quality black and white results from a digital
workflow. I think it's a given that the printer is a big issue, and
that you need a lot of resolution (eg 200 ppi is probably not going to
suffice!). But I would like to concentrate on the *capture stage* -
what is it that makes a superb b&w image?

A great b&w has a 'look' to it that is often referred to, but rarely
is an attempt made to explain *what gives it that quality* - is it the
tone curve, the dynamic range, the nature of the media, ... I'm a bit
sick of hearing "you just can't do quality b&w with digital" - while I
agree that seems to be mostly true, I want to know *exactly why*...!!!

Seems to me that if the issues can be defined, then maybe there are
some workarounds and techniques that will help to let us digital-geeks
begin to explore the final frontier... If the issues *can't* be
defined, then that also tells me something.. (O;

If I've missed a good site on this topic, *please* enlighten me!!

PS - The answer "use film" - while technically correct - is not quite
the answer I seek...
PPS - Any attempts to answer this thread concentrating specifically on
the issues while avoiding personality clashes, will be greatly
appreciated. (O:



It may be possible to duplicate the "tone curve" and dynamic range of B&W
film in the digital workflow. IMHO, the difference is the final print. A B&W
'silver' print has a certain look to it that an inkjet or thermal type
printer can't match. I had an instance where a customer brought me an old
photo that was damaged. I scanned it, did the artwork and printed it on the
inkjet. I didn't like it. I reversed it, printed it on transparency media on
the inkjet, making a negative, took that into the darkroom and contact
printed it. It looked good.

Personally, I like the answer "use film"!


  #63  
Old October 23rd 07, 07:52 AM posted to rec.photo.equipment.35mm,aus.photo
Mr.T
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Posts: 889
Default How to get good black & white from digital?


"Wilba" wrote in message
...
that you have more options working with the source
(the light in the scene), than you do working with a derivative image.


How so?
(polarising filters excepted)


You talkin' to me? :-) I'll have a go, but I don't really know what I'm
talking about.


OK, I will accept that disclaimer.

It makes sense to me via the general principle that the closer you get to
the source of any signal, and the fewer times you transform it, the

greater
the fidelity.


So adding glass filters is less harmful than manipulating pixels in your
opinion?
I doubt many would agree with you, and certainly not with any proof.


In my limited experience, trying to enhance the contrast between clouds

and
sky via the channel mixer can only go so far - eventually I start to get
visible artefacts, posterisation(?), whatever it is.


Well a polarising filter is often the best choice there.


Yes, I know that there are many other ways to get B&W, and that it's
different with RAW, bla bla bla, but when I hit that limit, I'd like to

have
more contrast in the original image to start with.
Does that make sense to you? :-)


No, but feel free to do whatever suits you regardless :-)

MrT.


  #64  
Old October 23rd 07, 07:57 AM posted to rec.photo.equipment.35mm,aus.photo
Mr.T
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Posts: 889
Default How to get good black & white from digital?


"UC" wrote in message
ups.com...
You can't. Use B&W film and a darkroom, DAMMIT!


I'd have to agree, but only because printing digital B&W comes nowhere near
real B&W photographic papers.

MrT.


  #65  
Old October 23rd 07, 01:14 PM posted to rec.photo.equipment.35mm,aus.photo
Wilba[_2_]
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Posts: 360
Default How to get good black & white from digital?

Mr.T wrote:
Wilba wrote:
Mr.T wrote:
Wilba wrote:


that you have more options working with the source
(the light in the scene), than you do working with a derivative image.

How so?
(polarising filters excepted)


You talkin' to me? :-) I'll have a go, but I don't really know what I'm
talking about.


OK, I will accept that disclaimer.

It makes sense to me via the general principle that the closer you get to
the source of any signal, and the fewer times you transform it, the
greater the fidelity.


So adding glass filters is less harmful than manipulating pixels in your
opinion?


Depends what you mean by harmful, and how much harm you are willing to
tolerate to get what you want.

I doubt many would agree with you, and certainly not with any proof.


It's your claim so it's not for me to seek others agreement. :-)

In my limited experience, trying to enhance the contrast between
clouds and sky via the channel mixer can only go so far - eventually
I start to get visible artefacts, posterisation(?), whatever it is.


Well a polarising filter is often the best choice there.


So adding glass filters is less harmful than manipulating pixels in your
opinion?

Yes, I know that there are many other ways to get B&W, and that it's
different with RAW, bla bla bla, but when I hit that limit, I'd like to
have more contrast in the original image to start with.
Does that make sense to you? :-)


No, but feel free to do whatever suits you regardless :-)


Thanks very much. If you disagree with Ken Hart, or don't understand what he
said, you'd be better off addressing your comments to him.


  #66  
Old October 23rd 07, 02:31 PM posted to rec.photo.equipment.35mm,aus.photo
Mr.T
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 889
Default How to get good black & white from digital?


"Wilba" wrote in message
...
You talkin' to me? :-) I'll have a go, but I don't really know what

I'm
talking about.


OK, I will accept that disclaimer.


In my limited experience, trying to enhance the contrast between
clouds and sky via the channel mixer can only go so far - eventually
I start to get visible artefacts, posterisation(?), whatever it is.


Well a polarising filter is often the best choice there.


So adding glass filters is less harmful than manipulating pixels in your
opinion?


I said I accept your disclaimer, no need to prove it.


MrT.


  #67  
Old October 24th 07, 01:05 AM posted to rec.photo.equipment.35mm,aus.photo
Wilba[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 360
Default How to get good black & white from digital?

Mr.T wrote:
Wilba wrote:


You talkin' to me? :-) I'll have a go, but I don't really know what
I'm talking about.

OK, I will accept that disclaimer.


In my limited experience, trying to enhance the contrast between
clouds and sky via the channel mixer can only go so far - eventually
I start to get visible artefacts, posterisation(?), whatever it is.

Well a polarising filter is often the best choice there.


So adding glass filters is less harmful than manipulating pixels in your
opinion?


I said I accept your disclaimer, no need to prove it.


LOL. Good one. I thought that's what this was about. I'm still happy to hear
anything you have to add to the real discussion.


  #68  
Old October 24th 07, 05:43 AM posted to rec.photo.equipment.35mm,aus.photo
Mr.T
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 889
Default How to get good black & white from digital?


"Wilba" wrote in message
...
LOL. Good one. I thought that's what this was about. I'm still happy to

hear
anything you have to add to the real discussion.


If you don't understand why I excluded polarising filters from the start,
and why they are the only real exceptions, then further discussion is
pointless.
However do feel free to provide any *proof* you have that filters, other
than polarisers, are better used on camera.

MrT.


  #69  
Old October 24th 07, 09:36 AM posted to rec.photo.equipment.35mm,aus.photo
Matthew Winn
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Posts: 175
Default How to get good black & white from digital?

On Wed, 24 Oct 2007 14:43:03 +1000, "Mr.T" MrT@home wrote:

If you don't understand why I excluded polarising filters from the start,
and why they are the only real exceptions, then further discussion is
pointless.
However do feel free to provide any *proof* you have that filters, other
than polarisers, are better used on camera.


The original scene has far more chromatic information than the
recorded image. When using filters you are manipulating the entire
spectrum. If you try to manipulate the image you're working with
three spikes.

Sometimes that may not matter, but other times it might. A tri-colour
image may look similar to the original scene, but it's _not_ the
original scene and it can't respond to digital filtration in the way
that the original scene could. An orange filter, for example, doesn't
do the same thing as cutting out the blue channel, reducing the green
and boosting the red.

That's not to say that there's no place for digital filtering, but a
discerning photographer should be able to work out the right choice
for each image and know _why_ it's the right choice. Sometimes the
right choice is to filter the light before it's recorded.

--
Matthew Winn
[If replying by mail remove the "r" from "urk"]
  #70  
Old October 24th 07, 10:43 AM posted to rec.photo.equipment.35mm,aus.photo
Wilba[_2_]
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Posts: 360
Default How to get good black & white from digital?

Mr.T wrote:
Wilba wrote:

I'm still happy to hear anything you have to add to
the real discussion.


If you don't understand why I excluded polarising filters from
the start, and why they are the only real exceptions, then further
discussion is pointless.


OK. We'll not discuss it further. If you ever feel like helping me
understand, you know where to find me.

However do feel free to provide any *proof* you have that filters,
other than polarisers, are better used on camera.


That's not my position, so I don't need to prove anything. What are you
trying to prove? :-)


 




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