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Histogram and highlight clipping in DSLR's



 
 
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  #1  
Old December 17th 06, 09:57 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
Mueen Nawaz
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 66
Default Histogram and highlight clipping in DSLR's

Hi,

I did an experiment yesterday. I took a photo, and my set my camera to
show clipped highlights. About half of the image was blinking as being
clipped.

I then opened the resulting file in software, and asked it. Almost none
of it was clipped. Now the software will only mark it clipped if it's
254 or above (my setting). I then changed the setting to about 245, and
then it really matched what my camera LCD was showing me. This was a
rough estimate - I didn't try other numbers to really pin it down.

This bothers me. My purpose of looking at clipped highlights is just to
know if detail has been lost - and my camera is a bit conservative about
this. I'm losing some flexibility in increasing the exposure because I
don't _really_ know if too much is being exposed. It was somewhat of a
shock to realize that only a very tiny portion of the image was "really"
clipped, while the camera was showing it as half of the image (which
would normally force me to reduce the exposure somewhat unnecessarily at
times).

I don't really have that good a feel for the numbers. Is 254 brightness
that much more than 245?

I'm otherwise happy with my camera (Olympus E-500). I'm just curious if
people have tried figuring this out in other DSLR's (at least the ones
that show clipped highlights). Is this a common issue?

--
Don't drink and park, accidents cause people.


/\ /\ /\ /
/ \/ \ u e e n / \/ a w a z

anl

  #2  
Old December 17th 06, 10:31 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
Paul Mitchum
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Posts: 478
Default Histogram and highlight clipping in DSLR's

Mueen Nawaz wrote:

Hi,

I did an experiment yesterday. I took a photo, and my set my camera
to show clipped highlights. About half of the image was blinking as being
clipped.

I then opened the resulting file in software, and asked it. Almost
none of it was clipped. Now the software will only mark it clipped if it's
254 or above (my setting). I then changed the setting to about 245, and
then it really matched what my camera LCD was showing me. This was a rough
estimate - I didn't try other numbers to really pin it down.

This bothers me. My purpose of looking at clipped highlights is just
to know if detail has been lost - and my camera is a bit conservative
about this.


The difference between 254 and 245 is not all that conservative.

I'm losing some flexibility in increasing the exposure because I don't
_really_ know if too much is being exposed.


So meter it. :-)

It was somewhat of a shock to realize that only a very tiny portion of the
image was "really" clipped, while the camera was showing it as half of the
image (which would normally force me to reduce the exposure somewhat
unnecessarily at times).

I don't really have that good a feel for the numbers. Is 254 brightness
that much more than 245?


That depends on why you need it. You might try opening up a worrisome
image in something like Photoshop and asking it to show you only the
parts with a value over 245 to see how much detail is available. In PS,
you'd do Image - Adjustments - Levels, make sure the Channel is set to
RGB, and then drag the black Output slider to 245.

I'm otherwise happy with my camera (Olympus E-500). I'm just curious if
people have tried figuring this out in other DSLR's (at least the ones
that show clipped highlights). Is this a common issue?


  #3  
Old December 18th 06, 11:55 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
Digital Photography Now
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 99
Default Histogram and highlight clipping in DSLR's


"Mueen Nawaz" wrote in message
...
Hi,

I did an experiment yesterday. I took a photo, and my set my camera to
show clipped highlights. About half of the image was blinking as being
clipped.

I then opened the resulting file in software, and asked it. Almost none of
it was clipped. Now the software will only mark it clipped if it's 254 or
above (my setting). I then changed the setting to about 245, and then it
really matched what my camera LCD was showing me. This was a rough
estimate - I didn't try other numbers to really pin it down.

This bothers me. My purpose of looking at clipped highlights is just to
know if detail has been lost - and my camera is a bit conservative about
this. I'm losing some flexibility in increasing the exposure because I
don't _really_ know if too much is being exposed. It was somewhat of a
shock to realize that only a very tiny portion of the image was "really"
clipped, while the camera was showing it as half of the image (which would
normally force me to reduce the exposure somewhat unnecessarily at times).

I don't really have that good a feel for the numbers. Is 254 brightness
that much more than 245?

I'm otherwise happy with my camera (Olympus E-500). I'm just curious if
people have tried figuring this out in other DSLR's (at least the ones
that show clipped highlights). Is this a common issue?

--
Don't drink and park, accidents cause people.


/\ /\ /\ /
/ \/ \ u e e n / \/ a w a z

anl


What an interesting subject you have raised! I'm gonna replicate what you
did later today.

Your camera is playing safe and there is nothing wrong with that. DSLRs do,
on the whole, I find, err on the side of caution when assessing exposure
compared to a point and shoot camera. This is because a) DSLR users
(traditionally) have been more inclined to post process their pictures and
b) because the larger sensors in DSLRs have more dynamic range so shadow
detail can be recovered very successfully.

Ian

Digital Photography Now
The online magazine and community for anyone interested in taking digital
pictures!
http://dpnow.com
DPNow forum and users photo gallery: http://forum.dpnow.com
Win an Olympys E-330 Live View DSLR during December:
http://dpnow.com/3241.html


  #4  
Old December 18th 06, 12:07 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
ASAAR
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,057
Default Histogram and highlight clipping in DSLR's

On Sun, 17 Dec 2006 14:57:51 -0600, Mueen Nawaz wrote:

I did an experiment yesterday. I took a photo, and my set my camera to
show clipped highlights. About half of the image was blinking as being
clipped.

I then opened the resulting file in software, and asked it. Almost none
of it was clipped. Now the software will only mark it clipped if it's
254 or above (my setting). I then changed the setting to about 245, and
then it really matched what my camera LCD was showing me. This was a
rough estimate - I didn't try other numbers to really pin it down.

This bothers me. My purpose of looking at clipped highlights is just to
know if detail has been lost - and my camera is a bit conservative about
this. I'm losing some flexibility in increasing the exposure because I
don't _really_ know if too much is being exposed. It was somewhat of a
shock to realize that only a very tiny portion of the image was "really"
clipped, while the camera was showing it as half of the image (which
would normally force me to reduce the exposure somewhat unnecessarily at
times).

I don't really have that good a feel for the numbers. Is 254 brightness
that much more than 245?

I'm otherwise happy with my camera (Olympus E-500). I'm just curious if
people have tried figuring this out in other DSLR's (at least the ones
that show clipped highlights). Is this a common issue?


I can't answer your question, partly because my camera doesn't
show clipped highlights, but I have a question for you. The display
that shows clipped highlights has *much* lower resolution than the
sensor, so how many display points are used to indicate clipping?
Does each one have to light up even if only a single pixel has
reached 254 (or 245)? Or only if, say, 5% of the pixels (under its
jurisdiction, as it were) have clipped? If Olympus lights up any of
these points used to show where clipping has occurred, even if only
a single pixel has saturated, then it's possible for the clipping
histogram to indicate half of the image has clipped, when it might
actually be only 1% of the total number of pixels. But if that 1%
is randomly distributed across the sensor, due to the way that the
saturated pixels are monitored, the camera could indicate that half
of the regions it's monitoring have one or more saturated pixels.
That might not be the way the average photographer would want the
camera to warn about clipping, but it might be what some finicky
pros would want.

  #5  
Old December 19th 06, 06:09 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
Mueen Nawaz
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 66
Default Histogram and highlight clipping in DSLR's

ASAAR wrote:
I can't answer your question, partly because my camera doesn't
show clipped highlights, but I have a question for you. The display
that shows clipped highlights has *much* lower resolution than the
sensor, so how many display points are used to indicate clipping?
Does each one have to light up even if only a single pixel has
reached 254 (or 245)? Or only if, say, 5% of the pixels (under its
jurisdiction, as it were) have clipped? If Olympus lights up any of
these points used to show where clipping has occurred, even if only
a single pixel has saturated, then it's possible for the clipping
histogram to indicate half of the image has clipped, when it might
actually be only 1% of the total number of pixels. But if that 1%
is randomly distributed across the sensor, due to the way that the
saturated pixels are monitored, the camera could indicate that half
of the regions it's monitoring have one or more saturated pixels.
That might not be the way the average photographer would want the
camera to warn about clipping, but it might be what some finicky
pros would want.


Interesting way to look at it. In this particular case, the truly
clipped area was just a tiny area - not spread around, and well within
the resolution of the camera LCD. But I perhaps should check with a
number like 250 and see if the "clipped" areas are scattered across the
image - in which case your explanation may make sense, and the 245
number may be off.

(Anyway, even if what you say is true, I think the lesson is the same:
Not to overrely on the histogram/clipped highlight indicators).

--
"Class, please! If you don't learn Roman numerals, you'll never know the
dates certain motion pictures were copyrighted." -- Mrs. Krabappel in
The Simpsons.


/\ /\ /\ /
/ \/ \ u e e n / \/ a w a z

anl

  #6  
Old December 19th 06, 04:57 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3
Default Histogram and highlight clipping in DSLR's


I tend to be a result person. What the camera or software
believed was clipped is only a tool to get to and end product. It is
all about what the end product looks like.

I did not see any comments from you about what the end product
looked like. If you don't see the difference in the end product, then
I suggest that you are getting far too hung up on the technical aspects
of photography and missing the real real core of the subject the art of
photography. You are letting the tools dictate the results not your
heart.



On Dec 17, 3:57 pm, Mueen Nawaz wrote:
Hi,

I did an experiment yesterday. I took a photo, and my set my camera to
show clipped highlights. About half of the image was blinking as being
clipped.

I then opened the resulting file in software, and asked it. Almost none
of it was clipped. Now the software will only mark it clipped if it's
254 or above (my setting). I then changed the setting to about 245, and
then it really matched what my camera LCD was showing me. This was a
rough estimate - I didn't try other numbers to really pin it down.

This bothers me. My purpose of looking at clipped highlights is just to
know if detail has been lost - and my camera is a bit conservative about
this. I'm losing some flexibility in increasing the exposure because I
don't _really_ know if too much is being exposed. It was somewhat of a
shock to realize that only a very tiny portion of the image was "really"
clipped, while the camera was showing it as half of the image (which
would normally force me to reduce the exposure somewhat unnecessarily at
times).

I don't really have that good a feel for the numbers. Is 254 brightness
that much more than 245?

I'm otherwise happy with my camera (Olympus E-500). I'm just curious if
people have tried figuring this out in other DSLR's (at least the ones
that show clipped highlights). Is this a common issue?

--
Don't drink and park, accidents cause people.

/\ /\ /\ /
/ \/ \ u e e n / \/ a w a z

anl


  #7  
Old December 20th 06, 06:48 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
Mueen Nawaz
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 66
Default Histogram and highlight clipping in DSLR's

wrote:
I did not see any comments from you about what the end product
looked like. If you don't see the difference in the end product, then
I suggest that you are getting far too hung up on the technical aspects
of photography and missing the real real core of the subject the art of
photography. You are letting the tools dictate the results not your
heart.


Well, it wasn't a controlled experiment. And I didn't take the picture
- I was just observing all this long after the fact.

A better test along the lines of what you say is my taking two pictures
- one where it seems half of the image is clipped, and one where I
reduce the exposure until none of what I care for is clipped, and see if
the latter kept the detail as well as the former.

In this case, BTW, there was a lot of detail in the photo that was
captured where the camera indicated clipped highlights. Fortunately for
the one who took the picture, the detail was irrelevant, which is why he
didn't bother taking another one after seeing the fake clipped highlights.

I can see why a camera manufacturer may have included it just to point
out to users that "this area is very, very bright". I just hope that in
future, cameras make this configurable, so that I can select what I
consider to be "too bright".

--
"I'm a lawyer." "Honest?" "No, the usual kind."


/\ /\ /\ /
/ \/ \ u e e n / \/ a w a z

anl

  #8  
Old December 20th 06, 06:54 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
Mueen Nawaz
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 66
Default Histogram and highlight clipping in DSLR's

Ed Ruf Ed Ruf (REPLY to E-MAIL IN SIG!) wrote:
Does your camera have individual channel histogram/cluipping warning,
or is it just combined luminance. In software I'll bet you looking at
individual channel levels, not the combined luminance value.


The camera only warns on the overall luminescence - although it does
show individual channel's histograms. The software was showing the
warning for overall luminescence - not for an individual channel. As I
said in another post, there was quite a bit of detail that I managed to
extract from the area the camera thought was clipped.


--
"I'm a lawyer." "Honest?" "No, the usual kind."


/\ /\ /\ /
/ \/ \ u e e n / \/ a w a z

anl

  #9  
Old December 22nd 06, 11:17 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
Mueen Nawaz
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 66
Default Figured it out


I should have guessed it earlier. The camera shows clipped highlights
based on the JPEG it creates (I shoot in RAW + JPG). I was looking at
the RAW file on the computer. When I loaded up the JPEG and compared the
highlights, it matched up really well.

Now if I'm ever in the mood, I'll set the contrast setting on the
camera to a minimum and then compare what it says and what the software
says.

When I think about it, I almost always shoot raw, and I'll check with
the RAW software folks to see if they make use of my contrast,
saturation, etc settings in the camera. If not, I might as well set it
low on the camera anyway.


--
Youthful Figu What you get when you ask a woman her age.


/\ /\ /\ /
/ \/ \ u e e n / \/ a w a z

anl

 




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