Friend is looking for a really good P&S

SMS wrote:
Ron Hunter wrote:

I consider them a definite advantage, and I am sure you will find many
others that agree. Unless battery companies come up with a 'standard'
Lithium ion battery type I can readily buy at the local convenience
store, I will continue to buy cameras that use AA batteries.

That's a large part of the problem, with Li-Ion batteries you're not
going to have to be stopping at a 7-11 and paying $8 for two Lithium AA
batteries. The whole "ITMON" (in the middle of nowhere) argument is bogus.

Not at all. I have, on at least two occasions stopped at local stores
for batteries/memory cards. Try that with Lithium ion batteries.

David J Taylor wrote:
Ron Hunter wrote:
[]
I consider them a definite advantage, and I am sure you will find many
others that agree. Unless battery companies come up with a 'standard'
Lithium ion battery type I can readily buy at the local convenience
store, I will continue to buy cameras that use AA batteries.

That's a little like cutting of your nose to spite your face! If the
cameras are otherwise equal, or if you need to use multiple AA cells, fair
enough. But otherwise, I would choose on the features and performance of
the camera. Most cameras these days use Li-ion batteries, and it seems a
shame to cut yourself off from using these cameras.

Cheers,
David


Not so much a shame as running out of juice with no alternative than
waiting for the battery to charge.

SMS wrote:
Rich wrote:

snip

Only if you plan on using disposable batteries, what kind of retard
would do that?

That's a bit harsh, since there are some advantages of AA batteries that
go beyond that.

In fact being able to buy AA disposable batteries at a convenience
store if all your rechargeables are dead and you have no way to charge
them from AC or from a vehicle charger is such an unlikely event that it
really can't be considered an advantage at all, especially since with AA
cells you're far more likely to get into this situation in the first place.

Still, the advantages of Li-Ion rechargeables are so overwhelming that
it's definitely a negative when they can't be used.

For you, maybe. Not for a lot of others. It may be more in how you use
your camera, than what type of battery you choose. Certainly the
Lithium ion batteries have many advantages, but easily availability
certainly is NOT one of them.

ASAAR wrote:

You *really* are becoming another SMS style Li-Ion chauvinist.
Li-Ion batteries have some advantages, but so do AA batteries,

It is however annoying that the Li Ion batteries are not used in
standard sizes like AA. To the best of my knowledge, there is nothing in
the technology of Li ion which prevents them being put into a standard
size. Perhaps better if its not AA due to the risk of damage to
equipment. But every item having its own side and shape of battery is
not very good for consumers.

On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 09:36:07 +0100, Dave wrote:

It is however annoying that the Li Ion batteries are not used in
standard sizes like AA. To the best of my knowledge, there is nothing in
the technology of Li ion which prevents them being put into a standard
size. Perhaps better if its not AA due to the risk of damage to
equipment. But every item having its own side and shape of battery is
not very good for consumers.

Yes. That's a point that both David and I have agreed upon from
time to time, that it would be desirable for manufacturers to make
standard a reasonable number of different sized Li-Ion batteries.
The same standardization could also be brought to the chargers.

ASAAR wrote:
[]
You *really* are becoming another SMS style Li-Ion chauvinist.
Li-Ion batteries have some advantages, but so do AA batteries,
something that you are becoming more and more unable to admit. Can
you think of any advantages that come with the use of AA batteries?
Don't try too hard, because if you can show a few of them, you will
also have shown that "cutting of(sic) your nose to spite your face"
was a nothing more than a clueless, ignorant statement, what we
might expect from the poison pen of SMS.

ASAAR,

I consider the position to /only/ buy AA-cell powered cameras -
irrespective of what other cameras might have to offer - an unwise one,
unless there are very good reasons for that choice. It would rule out
most DSLR bodies, for example. Ron probably means strong preference,
rather than completely ignoring other cameras, and I hope he will clarify
that.


I already commented that for my GPS I bought it even though it had
multiple AA cells rather than my preferred single-package battery (NiMH,
Li-ion, or whatever). Hardly the action of a "Li-Ion chauvinist."

Cheers,
David

Ron Hunter wrote:
David J Taylor wrote:
Ron Hunter wrote:
[]
I consider them a definite advantage, and I am sure you will find
many others that agree. Unless battery companies come up with a
'standard' Lithium ion battery type I can readily buy at the local
convenience store, I will continue to buy cameras that use AA
batteries.

That's a little like cutting of your nose to spite your face! If the
cameras are otherwise equal, or if you need to use multiple AA
cells, fair enough. But otherwise, I would choose on the features
and performance of the camera. Most cameras these days use Li-ion
batteries, and it seems a shame to cut yourself off from using these
cameras. Cheers,
David


Not so much a shame as running out of juice with no alternative than
waiting for the battery to charge.

OK, I do buy more than one Li-ion battery for my cameras, but I've not had
that happen in recent times. I ensure that my spares are with me.

Cheers,
David

David J Taylor wrote:
ASAAR wrote:
[]
You *really* are becoming another SMS style Li-Ion chauvinist.
Li-Ion batteries have some advantages, but so do AA batteries,
something that you are becoming more and more unable to admit. Can
you think of any advantages that come with the use of AA batteries?
Don't try too hard, because if you can show a few of them, you will
also have shown that "cutting of(sic) your nose to spite your face"
was a nothing more than a clueless, ignorant statement, what we
might expect from the poison pen of SMS.

ASAAR,

I consider the position to /only/ buy AA-cell powered cameras -
irrespective of what other cameras might have to offer - an unwise one,
unless there are very good reasons for that choice. It would rule out
most DSLR bodies, for example. Ron probably means strong preference,
rather than completely ignoring other cameras, and I hope he will clarify
that.


I already commented that for my GPS I bought it even though it had
multiple AA cells rather than my preferred single-package battery (NiMH,
Li-ion, or whatever). Hardly the action of a "Li-Ion chauvinist."

Despite the vitriol by the individual above, of course I too have many
AA powered devices, including some cameras.

What some of us are able to do is to honestly look at the big picture
when selecting electronic products, and not obsess over the battery type
in cases when it makes little difference, but consider the battery type
as part of the whole package.

I point out _eight_ advantages of AA batteries over Li-Ion batteries on
the web site. Alas, those advantages tend to be rather minor, while many
of the advantages of Li-Ion batteries over AA batteries are quite major.

It truly is "cutting off your nose to spite your face" to choose camera
equipment based primarily on it using AA batteries. Not only do you end
up with much poorer equipment in most cases, but the whole premise is
based on ignorance. In D-SLRs, you'd limit yourself to one Pentax model.
In sub-compacts you're totally out of luck.

A few people tend to get tunnel vision on the subject of AA batteries,
obsessing over the fact that they can't run into a 7-11 while on a
backpacking trip through the back country of Africa to buy some Duracell
batteries that will give them the ability to take a few more photographs
for every dollar they spend. They don't understand (or they understand,
but don't want to admit) that they've put themselves into this very
situation by not understanding the technology.

Steve
"http://batterydata.com"

[Simply type "Li-Ion versus NiMH" into the Google search box and click
on "I'm feeling Lucky". This site is now the most visited site on the
web for battery comparison data.]

"Ron Hunter" wrote in message
...
SMS wrote:
Rich wrote:

snip

Only if you plan on using disposable batteries, what kind of retard
would do that?

That's a bit harsh, since there are some advantages of AA batteries that
go beyond that.

In fact being able to buy AA disposable batteries at a convenience store
if all your rechargeables are dead and you have no way to charge them
from AC or from a vehicle charger is such an unlikely event that it
really can't be considered an advantage at all, especially since with AA
cells you're far more likely to get into this situation in the first
place.

Still, the advantages of Li-Ion rechargeables are so overwhelming that
it's definitely a negative when they can't be used.

For you, maybe. Not for a lot of others. It may be more in how you use
your camera, than what type of battery you choose. Certainly the Lithium
ion batteries have many advantages, but easily availability certainly is
NOT one of them.



Hi.

These arguments about Li-ion versus AA are totally irrelevant.

How many DSLRs use AA - not a lot.
How many Flashguns use Li-ion - not a lot.

So anyone with a DSLR and a Flash will almost certainly need both.

Perhaps the protagonists are willing to do without, if a piece of gear
happens to use the "wrong" kind of battery, but most of us have more sense.

Roy G

Dave wrote:
ASAAR wrote:

You *really* are becoming another SMS style Li-Ion chauvinist.
Li-Ion batteries have some advantages, but so do AA batteries,

It is however annoying that the Li Ion batteries are not used in
standard sizes like AA.

There are several standard size Li-Ion batteries available. The issue is
that the cells must be assembled into packs that contain the protection
circuitry. The proprietary packs are simply some Li-Ion cells packaged
into molded plastic case with the charge protection circuitry included.

For industrial use there are some Li-Ion battery packs that have become
a standard.

For cameras, there are also Li-Ion rechargeable versions of the standard
camera battery sizes, RCR-V3 for CR-V3, and RCR-123 for the CR-123.
They're rather low capacity compared to the proprietary packs, or to AA
cells. Paradoxically, they're also much more expensive than the
after-market proprietary Li-Ion packs.

To the best of my knowledge, there is nothing in
the technology of Li ion which prevents them being put into a standard
size.

Which is why this has already happened.

Perhaps better if its not AA due to the risk of damage to
equipment. But every item having its own side and shape of battery is
not very good for consumers.

Not great, but not a huge problem either. There are less proprietary
Li-Ion camera batteries than there are types of "standard" button and
coin cell batteries. A booming after-market in Li-Ion packs has brought
the prices of replacements down to about the same level as NiMH cells,
at least the low self-discharge and good high-capacity NiMH cells.

Steve
"http://batterydata.com"

[Simply type "Li-Ion versus NiMH" into the Google search box and click
on "I'm feeling Lucky". This site is now the most visited site on the
web for battery comparison data.]