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Sigma highlights another problem with plastics, thermal change



 
 
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  #11  
Old June 26th 12, 11:19 PM posted to rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
PeterN
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Posts: 3,039
Default Sigma highlights another problem with plastics, thermal change

On 6/26/2012 5:04 PM, nospam wrote:
In article , Robert Coe
wrote:

: : Doesn't say much about problems with QC. You two 'lucked out'
: : and got a good copy. Noone says Sigma cannot build good lenses
: : --- only that they don't do that consistently enough for comfort.
:
: How many Sigma lenses have you ever owned, Wolfgang? How good
: were they?
:
: I shall refer you to lensrentals.com, who have owned *many* dozen.
:
: Another 1 or 3 or 10 lenses from me doesn't make a difference
: to statistics. Just as one lottery winner doesn't mean every
: ticket wins the main price.

In other words, none. I thought as much.

Since I suppose you'll ask, or assume, my wife and I own four of them. Are
they the best lenses we own? No. But all have been a very good value for the
money.


four lenses is nothing.

lensrentals has *hundreds* of sigma lenses. dozens *each* of nearly
every model sigma lens made.

well they used to, until they found out that sigma lenses had horrific
failure rates, as high as 90% (really). many of them failed out of the
box, before they were even rented to anyone. worse, sigma gave the a
runaround to get them fixed, blaming lensrentals for breaking them.
there was a lengthy blog on their website about it.

now they only carry sigma lenses if there's no alternative from another
manufacturer.


I once tried a Sigma lens, and I think I posted the result. the short of
the story is that Sigma tried to convince me that the lens mount on my
Nikon, was out of spec. A bad lens can happen to any manufacturer, but
the indifference to reality turned me off Sigma. I later tried other
Sigma lenses without issue, except a strong reluctance to trust them.

--
Peter


  #12  
Old June 26th 12, 11:40 PM posted to rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
Robert Coe
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Posts: 4,901
Default Sigma highlights another problem with plastics, thermal change

On Tue, 26 Jun 2012 17:04:13 -0400, nospam wrote:
: In article , Robert Coe
: wrote:
:
: : : Doesn't say much about problems with QC. You two 'lucked out'
: : : and got a good copy. Noone says Sigma cannot build good lenses
: : : --- only that they don't do that consistently enough for comfort.
: :
: : How many Sigma lenses have you ever owned, Wolfgang? How good
: : were they?
: :
: : I shall refer you to lensrentals.com, who have owned *many* dozen.
: :
: : Another 1 or 3 or 10 lenses from me doesn't make a difference
: : to statistics. Just as one lottery winner doesn't mean every
: : ticket wins the main price.
:
: In other words, none. I thought as much.
:
: Since I suppose you'll ask, or assume, my wife and I own four of them. Are
: they the best lenses we own? No. But all have been a very good value for the
: money.
:
: four lenses is nothing.

No, zero (the number of Sigma lenses Wolfgang has owned) is nothing.

: lensrentals has *hundreds* of sigma lenses. dozens *each* of nearly
: every model sigma lens made.
:
: well they used to, until they found out that sigma lenses had horrific
: failure rates, as high as 90% (really). many of them failed out of the
: box, before they were even rented to anyone. worse, sigma gave the a
: runaround to get them fixed, blaming lensrentals for breaking them.
: there was a lengthy blog on their website about it.

I've read it. I have no way of knowing how accurate it is. (And I haven't read
Sigma's rebuttal, if any.) All I can say is that our experience, gained over
several years, doesn't support Lensrentals' conclusions.

: now they only carry sigma lenses if there's no alternative from another
: manufacturer.

So what's been your first-hand experience with Sigma lenses, "Nospam"?

Bob
  #13  
Old June 27th 12, 08:16 PM posted to rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
nospam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 24,165
Default Sigma highlights another problem with plastics, thermal change

In article , PeterN
wrote:

I once tried a Sigma lens, and I think I posted the result. the short of
the story is that Sigma tried to convince me that the lens mount on my
Nikon, was out of spec. A bad lens can happen to any manufacturer, but
the indifference to reality turned me off Sigma. I later tried other
Sigma lenses without issue, except a strong reluctance to trust them.


they're repeatedly shown they can't be trusted.
  #14  
Old June 27th 12, 08:17 PM posted to rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
nospam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 24,165
Default Sigma highlights another problem with plastics, thermal change

In article , Robert Coe
wrote:

: : : Doesn't say much about problems with QC. You two 'lucked out'
: : : and got a good copy. Noone says Sigma cannot build good lenses
: : : --- only that they don't do that consistently enough for comfort.
: :
: : How many Sigma lenses have you ever owned, Wolfgang? How good
: : were they?
: :
: : I shall refer you to lensrentals.com, who have owned *many* dozen.
: :
: : Another 1 or 3 or 10 lenses from me doesn't make a difference
: : to statistics. Just as one lottery winner doesn't mean every
: : ticket wins the main price.
:
: In other words, none. I thought as much.
:
: Since I suppose you'll ask, or assume, my wife and I own four of them. Are
: they the best lenses we own? No. But all have been a very good value for
: the money.
:
: four lenses is nothing.

No, zero (the number of Sigma lenses Wolfgang has owned) is nothing.


that's an assumption on your part since he gave no number on how many
he's owned. it could be zero or it could be many. not that it matters.

how many he or anyone else personally owns is not significant. you've
owned four, but four lenses out of the millions that sigma makes, is
*nothing*. it's meaningless.

lensrentals has purchased *thousands* of sigma lenses, as well as
thousands of lenses from other companies, including nikon, canon,
tokina, tamron and others. they are in the *best* position to comment
on sigma's quality (or lack thereof).

other lens rental companies could comment as well, as could repair
shops on which lenses frequently come in for repair.

it's well known that sigma lenses have a huge quality control problem.
some even say the name sigma stands for significant malfunction. there
are countless threads on dpreview where people have had to go through
several copies to get one that works. many people will not consider
sigma because they've been burned before, often more than just once.

: lensrentals has *hundreds* of sigma lenses. dozens *each* of nearly
: every model sigma lens made.
:
: well they used to, until they found out that sigma lenses had horrific
: failure rates, as high as 90% (really). many of them failed out of the
: box, before they were even rented to anyone. worse, sigma gave the a
: runaround to get them fixed, blaming lensrentals for breaking them.
: there was a lengthy blog on their website about it.

I've read it. I have no way of knowing how accurate it is. (And I haven't read
Sigma's rebuttal, if any.)


sigma's rebuttal was to force lensrentals to pull their sigma saga
page, where they described the runaround that sigma gave them about
repairing lenses that were doa. sigma blamed lensrentals for damage,
which is absolute nonsense since the lenses were *new*, dead out of the
box, never rented to anyone. sigma didn't want the truth to be known so
forced the issue.

All I can say is that our experience, gained over
several years, doesn't support Lensrentals' conclusions.


you are either extremely lucky or aren't fussy. buy a lottery ticket.

: now they only carry sigma lenses if there's no alternative from another
: manufacturer.

So what's been your first-hand experience with Sigma lenses, "Nospam"?


once again, personal experience for me or anyone else makes no
difference in the grand scheme of things. sigma makes millions of
lenses. buying a couple of lenses is *not* significant. it means
nothing.

what *is* significant are things such as lensrental's repair rates.
also, sigma reusing lens id chips, which means that if you put a
particular lens on your camera, the *wrong* lens id is written to the
exif. or that nikon sued sigma for stealing nikon's intellectual
property on image stabilization. they totally ripped off canon for
their own sigma mount lenses. and if that's not enough, sigma used to
make lenses that were held together with cellophane tape, which not
surprisingly, failed and lens elements fell out.
  #15  
Old June 28th 12, 11:37 AM posted to rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
Chris Malcolm[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,142
Default Sigma highlights another problem with plastics, thermal change

nospam wrote:
In article , Robert Coe
wrote:


: : Doesn't say much about problems with QC. You two 'lucked out'
: : and got a good copy. Noone says Sigma cannot build good lenses
: : --- only that they don't do that consistently enough for comfort.
:
: How many Sigma lenses have you ever owned, Wolfgang? How good
: were they?
:
: I shall refer you to lensrentals.com, who have owned *many* dozen.
:
: Another 1 or 3 or 10 lenses from me doesn't make a difference
: to statistics. Just as one lottery winner doesn't mean every
: ticket wins the main price.

In other words, none. I thought as much.

Since I suppose you'll ask, or assume, my wife and I own four of them. Are
they the best lenses we own? No. But all have been a very good value for the
money.


four lenses is nothing.


lensrentals has *hundreds* of sigma lenses. dozens *each* of nearly
every model sigma lens made.


well they used to, until they found out that sigma lenses had horrific
failure rates, as high as 90% (really). many of them failed out of the
box, before they were even rented to anyone. worse, sigma gave the a
runaround to get them fixed, blaming lensrentals for breaking them.
there was a lengthy blog on their website about it.


now they only carry sigma lenses if there's no alternative from another
manufacturer.


If Sigma lenses are as bad as they say, I'm surprised that none of the
Sigma lenses I have or are owned and much appreciated by several of my
local photographer friends have given us any problems. That good luck
should have stretched so far if most Sigmas are crap seems stretching
luck and probability rather far. I note when reading lens reviews that
some Sigma lenses seem to have been notoriously troublesome, while
some others seem to be well regarded for build, optical quality, and
consistency.

I wonder, could it possibly be the case that some Sigma lenses are
good and some are bad, and you can find out which are which by
checking reviews etc? Could it possibly be that lensrentals have
fallen out with Sigma over some service issues and are trying to get
their own back? What other lens rental agencies report similar
problems?

--
Chris Malcolm




  #16  
Old June 28th 12, 02:51 PM posted to rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
nospam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 24,165
Default Sigma highlights another problem with plastics, thermal change

In article , Chris Malcolm
wrote:

If Sigma lenses are as bad as they say, I'm surprised that none of the
Sigma lenses I have or are owned and much appreciated by several of my
local photographer friends have given us any problems. That good luck
should have stretched so far if most Sigmas are crap seems stretching
luck and probability rather far. I note when reading lens reviews that
some Sigma lenses seem to have been notoriously troublesome, while
some others seem to be well regarded for build, optical quality, and
consistency.

I wonder, could it possibly be the case that some Sigma lenses are
good and some are bad, and you can find out which are which by
checking reviews etc? Could it possibly be that lensrentals have
fallen out with Sigma over some service issues and are trying to get
their own back? What other lens rental agencies report similar
problems?


sometimes you can get a decent sigma lens but it's a crap shoot.

the reality is that most people don't care. they buy sigma because it's
cheap and they're happy.

very, very few people pixel peep or take pictures of test charts to see
if their lens is functioning properly. if their photos look reasonably
good, then as far as they're concerned, the lens works fine.
  #17  
Old June 29th 12, 02:47 AM posted to rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
David Dyer-Bennet
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,814
Default Sigma highlights another problem with plastics, thermal change

Wolfgang Weisselberg writes:

Alan Browne wrote:
On 2012-06-17 14:55 , nospam wrote:
In article , Alan Browne



Sigma does produce a few very good lenses.


if you luck out and get a good one, yes, but unfortunately, their
quality control is all over the map and it might take several copies to
do that.


In particular the FF 180mm f/3.5 (1:1) macro gives stellar results while


the tamron 180mm is a far more reliable choice than the sigma 180,


Since I have DIRECT knowledge of the Sigma in question I know there are
no doubts as to its quality - build and esp. in light of the images it
produces. A friend (who photographs more than most people) has had the
"film era" f/3.5 version for over 10 years and continues to put it to
great use. I'll take his experience and photos over net lore.


Doesn't say much about problems with QC. You two 'lucked out'
and got a good copy. Noone says Sigma cannot build good lenses
--- only that they don't do that consistently enough for comfort.


My three Sigma lenses have all been good copies as well.

--
David Dyer-Bennet, ; http://dd-b.net/
Snapshots: http://dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/
Photos: http://dd-b.net/photography/gallery/
Dragaera: http://dragaera.info
  #18  
Old June 29th 12, 02:49 AM posted to rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
David Dyer-Bennet
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,814
Default Sigma highlights another problem with plastics, thermal change

nospam writes:

four lenses is nothing.

lensrentals has *hundreds* of sigma lenses. dozens *each* of nearly
every model sigma lens made.

well they used to, until they found out that sigma lenses had horrific
failure rates, as high as 90% (really). many of them failed out of the
box, before they were even rented to anyone. worse, sigma gave the a
runaround to get them fixed, blaming lensrentals for breaking them.
there was a lengthy blog on their website about it.


Yeah, but those claims of hugely high failure rates ring false -- and
four lenses is getting to the point where "90% failure" should probably
show up.

I strongly suspect people who rent lenses are much harder on them than I
am on lenses I'm using.
--
David Dyer-Bennet, ; http://dd-b.net/
Snapshots: http://dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/
Photos: http://dd-b.net/photography/gallery/
Dragaera: http://dragaera.info
  #19  
Old June 29th 12, 02:51 AM posted to rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
Robert Coe
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,901
Default Sigma highlights another problem with plastics, thermal change

On Tue, 26 Jun 2012 13:37:49 +0200, Wolfgang Weisselberg
wrote:
: Robert Coe wrote:
: On Sun, 24 Jun 2012 02:37:11 +0200, Wolfgang Weisselberg
: : Robert Coe wrote:
: : On Wed, 20 Jun 2012 11:27:56 +0200, Wolfgang Weisselberg
:
: : : Doesn't say much about problems with QC. You two 'lucked out'
: : : and got a good copy. Noone says Sigma cannot build good lenses
: : : --- only that they don't do that consistently enough for comfort.
:
: : How many Sigma lenses have you ever owned, Wolfgang? How good
: : were they?
:
: : I shall refer you to lensrentals.com, who have owned *many* dozen.
:
: : Another 1 or 3 or 10 lenses from me doesn't make a difference
: : to statistics. Just as one lottery winner doesn't mean every
: : ticket wins the main price.
:
: In other words, none. I thought as much.
:
: Looks like you try to invent facts.

The only fact I've "invented" is that you've never owned any Sigma lenses. If
I'm wrong about that, please set me straight.

: Since I suppose you'll ask, or assume, my wife and I own four of them. Are
: they the best lenses we own? No. But all have been a very good value for the
: money.
:
: Ok. You own *F*O*U*R* Sigma lenses. Probably bought over
: several years. How many percent of Sigma's lenses are they?
:
: Consider: their annual turnover is 36 billion yen (that's roughly
: 450 million USD).
:
: See the point why 4 so-so-but-real-cheap lenses just don't say much?
: We get many more 1 million EUR lottery winners per year ...
: from a single lottery.

I didn't say that my ownership of four Sigma lenses says anything. I only
mentioned it so that when I pointed out that you don't own any, you couldn't
say that I don't either.

You, not I, are the one making claims about the poor quality of Sigma lenses.
And those claims are based on *no* first-hand experience. Right?

Bob
  #20  
Old June 29th 12, 02:57 AM posted to rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
Robert Coe
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,901
Default Sigma highlights another problem with plastics, thermal change

On Wed, 27 Jun 2012 15:17:03 -0400, nospam wrote:
: In article , Robert Coe
: wrote:
:
: : : : Doesn't say much about problems with QC. You two 'lucked out'
: : : : and got a good copy. Noone says Sigma cannot build good lenses
: : : : --- only that they don't do that consistently enough for comfort.
: : :
: : : How many Sigma lenses have you ever owned, Wolfgang? How good
: : : were they?
: : :
: : : I shall refer you to lensrentals.com, who have owned *many* dozen.
: : :
: : : Another 1 or 3 or 10 lenses from me doesn't make a difference
: : : to statistics. Just as one lottery winner doesn't mean every
: : : ticket wins the main price.
: :
: : In other words, none. I thought as much.
: :
: : Since I suppose you'll ask, or assume, my wife and I own four of them. Are
: : they the best lenses we own? No. But all have been a very good value for
: : the money.
: :
: : four lenses is nothing.
:
: No, zero (the number of Sigma lenses Wolfgang has owned) is nothing.
:
: that's an assumption on your part since he gave no number on how many
: he's owned. it could be zero or it could be many. not that it matters.
:
: how many he or anyone else personally owns is not significant. you've
: owned four, but four lenses out of the millions that sigma makes, is
: *nothing*. it's meaningless.
:
: lensrentals has purchased *thousands* of sigma lenses, as well as
: thousands of lenses from other companies, including nikon, canon,
: tokina, tamron and others. they are in the *best* position to comment
: on sigma's quality (or lack thereof).
:
: other lens rental companies could comment as well, as could repair
: shops on which lenses frequently come in for repair.
:
: it's well known that sigma lenses have a huge quality control problem.
: some even say the name sigma stands for significant malfunction. there
: are countless threads on dpreview where people have had to go through
: several copies to get one that works. many people will not consider
: sigma because they've been burned before, often more than just once.
:
: : lensrentals has *hundreds* of sigma lenses. dozens *each* of nearly
: : every model sigma lens made.
: :
: : well they used to, until they found out that sigma lenses had horrific
: : failure rates, as high as 90% (really). many of them failed out of the
: : box, before they were even rented to anyone. worse, sigma gave the a
: : runaround to get them fixed, blaming lensrentals for breaking them.
: : there was a lengthy blog on their website about it.
:
: I've read it. I have no way of knowing how accurate it is. (And I haven't read
: Sigma's rebuttal, if any.)
:
: sigma's rebuttal was to force lensrentals to pull their sigma saga
: page, where they described the runaround that sigma gave them about
: repairing lenses that were doa. sigma blamed lensrentals for damage,
: which is absolute nonsense since the lenses were *new*, dead out of the
: box, never rented to anyone. sigma didn't want the truth to be known so
: forced the issue.
:
: All I can say is that our experience, gained over
: several years, doesn't support Lensrentals' conclusions.
:
: you are either extremely lucky or aren't fussy. buy a lottery ticket.
:
: : now they only carry sigma lenses if there's no alternative from another
: : manufacturer.
:
: So what's been your first-hand experience with Sigma lenses, "Nospam"?
:
: once again, personal experience for me or anyone else makes no
: difference in the grand scheme of things. sigma makes millions of
: lenses. buying a couple of lenses is *not* significant. it means
: nothing.
:
: what *is* significant are things such as lensrental's repair rates.
: also, sigma reusing lens id chips, which means that if you put a
: particular lens on your camera, the *wrong* lens id is written to the
: exif. or that nikon sued sigma for stealing nikon's intellectual
: property on image stabilization. they totally ripped off canon for
: their own sigma mount lenses. and if that's not enough, sigma used to
: make lenses that were held together with cellophane tape, which not
: surprisingly, failed and lens elements fell out.

Translation of the above: "Nospam", like Wolfgang, has never owned any Sigma
lenses.

Bob
 




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