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#11
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First time owner of a 35mm Camera
"Geoffrey S. Mendelson" writes:
David Dyer-Bennet wrote: I believe all the Nikkormats had vertical shutters. The Ft, which was quite early, is described as having a vertical shutter and 1/125 sec flash sync in multiple online sources, for example. I remember the FTN as having 1/125 sync as well, and I believe that was always a sign of a vertical shutter. Yes. I think the Ft was the first. It's predecssor was the Nikkorex F, which was made by Mamiya for Nikon. I believe the shutter was made by Copal. The Nikkormat Ftn, was an Ft with center weighted metering. This matched the metering of the Photomic Ftn finder on the F. The same shutter was used in all the Nikkormats (Ft, FTn, Ft2, Ft3) and an electronicaly timed version was used in the EL and EL2. If not the same, very similar shutters were used in the FM and FE. They did move faster; sync at 1/200 and then 1/250th. The cameras with curtain shutters (F/F2/F3) had a top flash sync of 1/90th. The F at least was 1/60, which was the common standard on all the horizontal cloth-curtain bodies I've owned (Miranda Sensorex, Leica M3, Pentax Spotmatic) and many I've read up on or examined. The F3 had 1/80 sync speed according to multiple online references (I never owned one). I think the F2 initiated the 1/80 sync speed, but I never owned one of those, either, and online references aren't quite as clear to my eyes (photos of F3 shutter speed dials are pretty clear). -- David Dyer-Bennet, ; http://dd-b.net/ Snapshots: http://dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/ Photos: http://dd-b.net/photography/gallery/ Dragaera: http://dragaera.info |
#12
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First time owner of a 35mm Camera
"David Dyer-Bennet" wrote in message ... "Geoffrey S. Mendelson" writes: David Dyer-Bennet wrote: I believe all the Nikkormats had vertical shutters. The Ft, which was quite early, is described as having a vertical shutter and 1/125 sec flash sync in multiple online sources, for example. I remember the FTN as having 1/125 sync as well, and I believe that was always a sign of a vertical shutter. Yes. I think the Ft was the first. It's predecssor was the Nikkorex F, which was made by Mamiya for Nikon. I believe the shutter was made by Copal. The Nikkormat Ftn, was an Ft with center weighted metering. This matched the metering of the Photomic Ftn finder on the F. The same shutter was used in all the Nikkormats (Ft, FTn, Ft2, Ft3) and an electronicaly timed version was used in the EL and EL2. If not the same, very similar shutters were used in the FM and FE. They did move faster; sync at 1/200 and then 1/250th. The cameras with curtain shutters (F/F2/F3) had a top flash sync of 1/90th. The F at least was 1/60, which was the common standard on all the horizontal cloth-curtain bodies I've owned (Miranda Sensorex, Leica M3, Pentax Spotmatic) and many I've read up on or examined. The F3 had 1/80 sync speed according to multiple online references (I never owned one). I think the F2 initiated the 1/80 sync speed, but I never owned one of those, either, and online references aren't quite as clear to my eyes (photos of F3 shutter speed dials are pretty clear). -- David Dyer-Bennet, ; http://dd-b.net/ Snapshots: http://dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/ Photos: http://dd-b.net/photography/gallery/ Dragaera: http://dragaera.info Other than the faster sync speed, does anyone feel there is an advantage for horizontal or vertical focal plane shutters? Most of my experience is with horizontal shutters in the Canon FX camera. I have a vertical shutter camera, the Kiev 88, but I really can't compare a 35mm SLR to a 6x6 SLR. From a mechanical perspective, it seems to me that a horizontal shutter in a 35mm SLR would be simpler to build: the action that winds the shutter- the film advance- is turning parallel to the shutter drums. For a vertical shutter, that motion has to be translated ninety degrees. Similarly, the 6x6 SLR has the film advance on the side- the film runs vertically- so the film winding motion is the same direction as the shutter motion. So is there a particular advantage to one shutter direction over the other? Ken Hart |
#13
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First time owner of a 35mm Camera
David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
The F at least was 1/60, which was the common standard on all the horizontal cloth-curtain bodies I've owned (Miranda Sensorex, Leica M3, Pentax Spotmatic) and many I've read up on or examined. On pre-Spotmatic Pentaxes such as my S3, the X speed is in between the 30 and 60. On my Praktica F.X3 (around 1958), the X speed looks to be just a little under 1/50 second. (much closer the 50 than 25 on a rotating shutter speed dial)t Peter. -- |
#14
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First time owner of a 35mm Camera
Bruce wrote:
"K W Hart" wrote: Absolutely. The fastest shutter speed of a horizontal travel shutter is 1/2000 sec with the titanium foil shutter of the Nikon F3, but most other cameras with horizontal travel shutters can only manage a fastest shutter speed of 1/1000 sec, and may not even manage that unless they have recently been serviced. That's a design issue. The maximum shutter speed of a focal plane shutter is a combination of how fast it travels and how wide the gap is between the first and second curtain. The travel time is noted by the maximum sync speed, how fast the curtains travel, one frame width apart, so that the film is uncovered entirely during exposure. Bear in mind that a horizontal shutter has to cover 36mm, while a vertical one only has to cover 24m. So our 100th of a second horizontal shutter has to run at 3.6mm/ms while our vertical one has to run at 2.4mm/ms. Using that notion, the usual 1/250th flash sync shutter runs at 24mm/4ms or 6mm/ms. At 6mm/ms, that would make our horizontal shutter have a top speed of 6ms or 1/166th second flash sync speed. For easy arithmetic, let's round down to 1/150th. So if we cut the frame in half (second curtain follows first 18mm behind) that would be 1/300th top speed, 1/4 (9mm) 1/600th, 1/8 (4.5mm) 1/1200th, 1/16th (2.25mm) 1/2400th, 1/32 (1.25mm) 1/4800, 1/64th (.612mm) 1/8800th. The limitations of doing this is, you can't keep reducing the size forever, eventually it becomes too small to be a shutter, and becomes a long pinhole. The other is that no shutter is perfect, there will be small variations in angles of the curtains, smoothness of travel, speed, etc. The wider the gap between curtains, the less these things affect the photograph. The horizontal curtains are much bigger, they are several that cover a vertical frame, each 36mm wide, but much shorter in height. A horizontal shutter needs to have each curtain be at least 24mm high and 36mm wide, probably much wider. Bigger curtains mean more weight, which means more inertia, which means more force to move. The advantage of them is that you have all that room to work. A vertical shutter has to sit between the viewfinder and the bottom of the camera, a horizontal one has to fit between the casette and the take up spool, and they can be easily moved farther apart if needed. I think it is all accademic, as I doubt that anyone is going to design a totally new film camera for a long, long time. They more likely are going to take an existing design and modify it, such as all of those variations of the Chinon SLR, which also includes the Voightlander rangefinder cameras. As for digital cameras, I really am not sure why one actually needs a shutter. Geoff. -- Geoffrey S. Mendelson, N3OWJ/4X1GM My high blood pressure medicine reduces my midichlorian count. :-( |
#15
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First time owner of a 35mm Camera
"K W Hart" writes:
"David Dyer-Bennet" wrote in message ... "Geoffrey S. Mendelson" writes: David Dyer-Bennet wrote: I believe all the Nikkormats had vertical shutters. The Ft, which was quite early, is described as having a vertical shutter and 1/125 sec flash sync in multiple online sources, for example. I remember the FTN as having 1/125 sync as well, and I believe that was always a sign of a vertical shutter. Yes. I think the Ft was the first. It's predecssor was the Nikkorex F, which was made by Mamiya for Nikon. I believe the shutter was made by Copal. The Nikkormat Ftn, was an Ft with center weighted metering. This matched the metering of the Photomic Ftn finder on the F. The same shutter was used in all the Nikkormats (Ft, FTn, Ft2, Ft3) and an electronicaly timed version was used in the EL and EL2. If not the same, very similar shutters were used in the FM and FE. They did move faster; sync at 1/200 and then 1/250th. The cameras with curtain shutters (F/F2/F3) had a top flash sync of 1/90th. The F at least was 1/60, which was the common standard on all the horizontal cloth-curtain bodies I've owned (Miranda Sensorex, Leica M3, Pentax Spotmatic) and many I've read up on or examined. The F3 had 1/80 sync speed according to multiple online references (I never owned one). I think the F2 initiated the 1/80 sync speed, but I never owned one of those, either, and online references aren't quite as clear to my eyes (photos of F3 shutter speed dials are pretty clear). -- David Dyer-Bennet, ; http://dd-b.net/ Snapshots: http://dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/ Photos: http://dd-b.net/photography/gallery/ Dragaera: http://dragaera.info Other than the faster sync speed, does anyone feel there is an advantage for horizontal or vertical focal plane shutters? Most of my experience is with horizontal shutters in the Canon FX camera. I have a vertical shutter camera, the Kiev 88, but I really can't compare a 35mm SLR to a 6x6 SLR. For a square frame, what's the difference? (Because the important thing is the shutters run the short way across the frame rather than the long way; that's why you get faster flash-sync speeds.) From a mechanical perspective, it seems to me that a horizontal shutter in a 35mm SLR would be simpler to build: the action that winds the shutter- the film advance- is turning parallel to the shutter drums. For a vertical shutter, that motion has to be translated ninety degrees. Similarly, the 6x6 SLR has the film advance on the side- the film runs vertically- so the film winding motion is the same direction as the shutter motion. There's much more difference than that; vertical shutters are metal blades, whereas horizontal ones are cloth curtains. Completely different designs. I don't think the angle issues you're raising have any relevance at all to why different shutters are chosen for various cameras. So is there a particular advantage to one shutter direction over the other? Yes, the shorter direction lets you have faster flash sync at any given "curtain" (or blade) speed. -- David Dyer-Bennet, ; http://dd-b.net/ Snapshots: http://dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/ Photos: http://dd-b.net/photography/gallery/ Dragaera: http://dragaera.info |
#16
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First time owner of a 35mm Camera
On 2012-03-15 16:24 , Bruce wrote:
"K W wrote: Other than the faster sync speed, does anyone feel there is an advantage for horizontal or vertical focal plane shutters? Absolutely. The fastest shutter speed of a horizontal travel shutter is 1/2000 sec with the titanium foil shutter of the Nikon F3, but most other cameras with horizontal travel shutters can only manage a fastest shutter speed of 1/1000 sec, and may not even manage that unless they have recently been serviced. Vertical travel focal plane shutters offer speeds of up to 1/4000, 1/8000 or even 1/12000 sec. That's a huge difference. This does not mean horizontal travel shutters cannot go faster than 1/2000 it just means camera makers abandoned horizontal travel and gravitated towards the shortest path. The Minolta Maxxum 9/9xi achieves 1/12,000 vertically. The same technology could reasonably be expected to achieve 1/8000 horizontally. The sync speed of the Maxxum 9 was 1/300. So a sync of 1/200 (horizontally) should also be attainable. -- "I was gratified to be able to answer promptly, and I did. I said I didn't know." -Samuel Clemens. |
#17
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First time owner of a 35mm Camera
Alex Monro wrote:
Paul Furman wrote: K W Hart wrote: You don't specify the focal length of the zoom lens. I would guess something like 75-150mm f/4 based on the vintage. At the teleconverter to this for 150-300mm f/6.3. f/8 surely with a 2x teleconverter? Right, 2 stops. |
#18
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First time owner of a 35mm Camera
David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
There's much more difference than that; vertical shutters are metal blades, whereas horizontal ones are cloth curtains. Completely different designs. I don't think the angle issues you're raising have any relevance at all to why different shutters are chosen for various cameras. The shutters in the F2 and F3 were a titanium foil alloy, not cloth. I don' know what was in an F. Geoff. -- Geoffrey S. Mendelson, N3OWJ/4X1GM My high blood pressure medicine reduces my midichlorian count. :-( |
#19
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First time owner of a 35mm Camera
"Geoffrey S. Mendelson" writes:
David Dyer-Bennet wrote: There's much more difference than that; vertical shutters are metal blades, whereas horizontal ones are cloth curtains. Completely different designs. I don't think the angle issues you're raising have any relevance at all to why different shutters are chosen for various cameras. The shutters in the F2 and F3 were a titanium foil alloy, not cloth. I don' know what was in an F. Oops, that's right. (And now I'm not sure about the F, either; I only owned one of those briefly, and only when it was quite old technology. Horizontal, I'm sure, but material I'm not. Okay, if I'm reading this right, this says Nikon switched the F to titanium curtains early in its life. http://imaging.nikon.com/history/legendary/rhnc12ti-e/index.htm -- David Dyer-Bennet, ; http://dd-b.net/ Snapshots: http://dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/ Photos: http://dd-b.net/photography/gallery/ Dragaera: http://dragaera.info |
#20
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First time owner of a 35mm Camera
"Noons" wrote in message
... On Mar 16, 6:28 am, "K W Hart" wrote: "Vertical shutters can cause a type of vibration in the camera body that is hard to stop with just handholding alone. The pro models dampen that very well, to the point where it's almost not noticeable in the F4 (huge mass) and F6 (superb dampening). "Horizontal shutters vibrate a lot less and in a direction that counters the natural handholding of the camera body. As such they cause a lot less "shaken" shots. Leica's horizontal shutter is a perfect example of an almost vibration free horizontal shutter: you can easily drop the speed to below 1/30 and still get a reasonably steady image assuming you use your head as well as hands to steady the camera." Hello. I used both types of shutter and found that the vertical shutter was less liable to shake at slow shutter speeds than the horizontal one. I think (it was a long time ago) that I compared the Canon A1 (horizontal shutter) and T90 (vertical shutter). Using a 50mm lens, the slowest shakefree speed with the horizontal shutter was 1/30 or 1/60 and the slowest shakefree speed with the vertical shutter was 1/8 or 1/15. Regards, Ian. |
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