Inca Trail and Battery Charging

nospam wrote:
In article ,
Whisky-dave wrote:

That would be one advantage that film has (and appropriate camera) is
that you can take pictures without any form of electrical power.

only if the camera has a mechanical shutter *and* the person guesses
the exposure correctly *and* the shutter is not out of adjustment.

Not difficult for someone that knows what they are doing, it's been done
for years in the past. Someone that knows what they are doing could take a
pretty good guess.

most people don't.

Then that's what seperate photographers from picture takers.

photographer means picture taker.


Actually it means “light drawer�





--
Regards,
Savageduck

On Sunday, October 29, 2017 at 2:28:30 PM UTC-4, sms wrote:
My wife and daughter are going on an Inca Trail trip to
Machu Pichu next year.

Nice! FYI, do get into good physical shape, particularly
if you're taking the classical trail (including altitude
acclimation work if possible).

What are some ways to manage the lack of any way to
charge devices along the way?

I looked into this very same question when we did the
(easier) "Sacred Valley Trail" a decade ago.

We ended up having 4 days/3 nights on the trail without
power. Since one does spend quite a bit of the day
just hiking, I found that much of the time spent taking
photos was after we hit camp each afternoon.

For how many pics to expend, my data's limited because
it was in the days of film/digital "carrying both", so
much of my stuff was on film ... nevertheless, I'd probably
today gage my expected consumption rate to be ~200 images
per day of hiking, and then potentially as many as 400
images on the day of arrival into Machu Pichu (since the
common itinerary doesn't get you back into a hotel until
after your first day at the site).

IIRC, the Inca Trail hikers had traditionally spent their
last day on the trail at the campground next to the building
(Youth Hostel? Pub?) that's above "Winay Wayna"; waking up
predawn to then be at the Gate of the Sun for sunrise. I
would have expected for there to probably some power at this
building, but with supply-vs-demand of all of the other hikers,
I'd not assume being able to get an outlet...and from a quick
web search, it sounds like it may be a moot point now, as it
appears that this business has since been shut down:

"This is why we can't have nice things on the Incan Trail."

https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/the-former-winay-wayna-pub


I can [various options] ...

Yes, you've pretty much covered all of the options. The only
thing that's really changed from when I did it is that
you're not also carrying film and that digital cameras have
become much more power-efficient.


Has anyone here come up with a good solution for trips of
several days where they will not have any access to electricity?

Yes, as you've concluded, a pile of spare batteries.

FYI, the one thing that you've possibly missed is to make sure
to have **redundant** battery chargers for your batteries. Not
only does this allow parallelism (time compression) for when
you do have access to power, but it eliminates a single point of
failure risk.

(BTW, also carry spare lens caps too).

The other suggestion I made is that we resurrect one of our
many old P&S film cameras and that they take a bunch of film.

I'd limit that option today to if you're going to be off the
grid for more than a week, and if you expect the quantity of
photos to be taken is manageably low. Even so, today's digital
camera battery "storage" life is quite good too, such that we've
been able to become lazy and not terribly concerned about
constantly keeping batteries topped up, etc.

----------

FWIW, I had a similar battery life concern & planning on
some of my African safari trips as well ... what would happen
if we hit a camp with zero power? My basic plan was to have
adequate batteries to be able to go through 3-4 days of normal
operation, which at ~400 pics/day works out to be a requirement
to have roughly 3 batteries per camera. FYI, having two
cameras which use the same battery can help out here too,
especially from the perspective of reducing the number of
(redundant) chargers you need to have along.


-hh

On 11/1/2017 9:09 AM, nospam wrote:

snip


meanwhile, those with digital cameras can shoot several thousand photos
on a memory card the size of a postage stamp, and in some cases, on a
single battery charge.


I suppose you know Which camera they use, and whether they shoot only in
RAW. Good quality high capacity cards are not cheap. I would find out at
which points there are provisions for back ups to the cloud. I would get
no higher capacity cards than they estimate will be shooting in one day,
+ a fudge factor of 25%. Bring as many cards, as days they will be away
from a place where they can backup to the cloud.

As I see it power for batteries is the biggest problem. Depending on
their camera's battery usage, figure battery usage per day, and bring
bring enough batteries to get them to the charging station furthest from
the preceding station. While there is a fair amount of planning
involved. it is worth doing so.

--
PeterN

In article , PeterN
wrote:


meanwhile, those with digital cameras can shoot several thousand photos
on a memory card the size of a postage stamp, and in some cases, on a
single battery charge.


I suppose you know Which camera they use, and whether they shoot only in
RAW.

absolutely. why would you think otherwise?

Good quality high capacity cards are not cheap.

compared to another trip, yes they are.

I would find out at
which points there are provisions for back ups to the cloud. I would get
no higher capacity cards than they estimate will be shooting in one day,
+ a fudge factor of 25%. Bring as many cards, as days they will be away
from a place where they can backup to the cloud.

i suppose you know how fast the internet service is, that it won't be
overloaded when you want to use it, what computer they have and what
version operating system is installed.

As I see it power for batteries is the biggest problem. Depending on
their camera's battery usage, figure battery usage per day, and bring
bring enough batteries to get them to the charging station furthest from
the preceding station. While there is a fair amount of planning
involved.

actually, very little planning.

it is worth doing so.

that's the whole point.

On Wed, 01 Nov 2017 14:11:05 -0400, nospam
wrote:

In article , PeterN
wrote:


meanwhile, those with digital cameras can shoot several thousand photos
on a memory card the size of a postage stamp, and in some cases, on a
single battery charge.


I suppose you know Which camera they use, and whether they shoot only in
RAW.

absolutely. why would you think otherwise?

Good quality high capacity cards are not cheap.

compared to another trip, yes they are.

I would find out at
which points there are provisions for back ups to the cloud. I would get
no higher capacity cards than they estimate will be shooting in one day,
+ a fudge factor of 25%. Bring as many cards, as days they will be away
from a place where they can backup to the cloud.

i suppose you know how fast the internet service is, that it won't be
overloaded when you want to use it, what computer they have and what
version operating system is installed.

As I see it power for batteries is the biggest problem. Depending on
their camera's battery usage, figure battery usage per day, and bring
bring enough batteries to get them to the charging station furthest from
the preceding station. While there is a fair amount of planning
involved.

actually, very little planning.

it is worth doing so.

that's the whole point.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

On Wednesday, November 1, 2017 at 1:31:00 PM UTC-4, PeterN wrote:
[...]Good quality high capacity cards are not cheap.

I guess this depends on what one considers 'cheap' or not.

For example, a random "good" CF card at B&H today is $80 for
a 64GB card, or $1.25/GB. That's downright cheap in comparison
to how much memory cards cost 5, 10 (or more) years ago.

And for this $80, at roughly 30MB per (RAW+JPG pair) image,
it represents 2000+ photos ... that's 10 days at 200 images/day
(or 5 days @ 400/day, etc).


I would find out at which points there are provisions for
back ups to the cloud.

YMMV. I've found that I can travel lighter (and without a
laptop) by simply "throwing money" to have more cards.
Specifically, enough to last the whole vacation so that
I don't need to carry the extra weight of a laptop or to
spend time finding an internet kiosk that I could upload.

For example, I got a new camera last year and caught a nice
sale at B&H: paid $100 for 192GB (2@32GB + 2@64GB). Lexar
800x UDMA CF Cards.


As I see it power for batteries is the biggest problem.

Yup...but again, when compared to the cost of an international
vacation, another 4 * $50 = $200 for batteries (or whatever)
that you'll be able to repeatedly use for the next ~5 years
worth of vacations is an expense that's an initial nuisance,
but not really a big deal when viewed in context of how many
such trips it will be an enabler. Ditto for buying a second
battery charger for redundancy (risk reduction) for $20:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/837451-REG/watson_c_1517_compact_charger_f_canon_lpe6.html


Depending on their camera's battery usage, figure battery
usage per day, and bring bring enough batteries to get them
to the charging station furthest from the preceding station.
While there is a fair amount of planning involved. it is
worth doing so.


Agreed, and the data requirements really aren't all that bad;
just need:

A = # of days away from next chance for power
B = # of days away from the next-after- of "A", above

C = expected # of photos per battery pack for camera A, B, (etc)
D = expected # of photos you expect to take on each day
E = risk management fudge factor (percentage)

Thus:

A*(D/C) = minimum number of battery packs expected to be used

(A*(D/C)*E) + (B*(D/C)*E) = "Risk management" practical upper limit

Applying some notional numbers for a single camera:

A=4
B=2
C=800 (Canon 7D's CIPA standard, w/Optical Viewfinder)
D=300
E=+50% margin

The minimum number of battery packs expected to be used:
= A*(D/C)
= (4 days)*(300pix per day/800pics per battery)
= 1.5 batteries ... so take two.

The "Risk management" practical upper limit:
= (A*(D/C)*E) + (B*(D/C)*E)
= (4*(300/800)*1.5)+(2*(300/800)*1.5)
= 2.25 + 1.225 = 3.375 batteries ... so take four.

Similarly for memory cards,

F = Camera's average # shots per 32GB card (or whatever)
(for a Canon 7D, assume ~1000 shots per 32GB card)

The minimum number of 32GB cards expected to be needed:
= A*(D/F) = (4 days)*(300 shots per day / 1000 per 32GB card)
= 1.2 cards ... so take 2 cards

The "Risk management" practical upper limit:
= (A*(D/F)*E)+(B*(D/F)*E)
= (4*(300/1000)*1.5)+(2*(300/1000)*1.5)
= 2.7 cards ... so take 3 cards

Alternatively:

G = total length of vacation
H = number of days in G where the shots/day rate from D applies
J = average # of shots/day for where H doesn't apply (such as in-transit)

Let:

G = 14 days
H = 4 days
J = 100/day

Total trip memory card "magazine depth" requirement estimate:

= (H*(D/F)*E)) + ((G-H)*(D/F)*E)
= (4*(100/1000)*1.5)+(14-4)*(300/1000)*1.5)
= (0.6) + (4.5)
= 5.1 cards ... so take six

(or cut it closer by refining to 5.1*32GB = 163GB required)


-hh

On 11/1/2017 2:11 PM, nospam wrote:
In article , PeterN
wrote:


meanwhile, those with digital cameras can shoot several thousand photos
on a memory card the size of a postage stamp, and in some cases, on a
single battery charge.


I suppose you know Which camera they use, and whether they shoot only in
RAW.

absolutely. why would you think otherwise?

Good quality high capacity cards are not cheap.

compared to another trip, yes they are.

I would find out at
which points there are provisions for back ups to the cloud. I would get
no higher capacity cards than they estimate will be shooting in one day,
+ a fudge factor of 25%. Bring as many cards, as days they will be away
from a place where they can backup to the cloud.

i suppose you know how fast the internet service is, that it won't be
overloaded when you want to use it, what computer they have and what
version operating system is installed.

As I see it power for batteries is the biggest problem. Depending on
their camera's battery usage, figure battery usage per day, and bring
bring enough batteries to get them to the charging station furthest from
the preceding station. While there is a fair amount of planning
involved.

actually, very little planning.

it is worth doing so.

that's the whole point.


Your creative snipping does not make it clear that you made the
statement I responded to.
Our other comments are obviously intended to start an argument. Sorry I
won't bite.

--
PeterN

On 11/1/2017 5:38 PM, -hh wrote:
On Wednesday, November 1, 2017 at 1:31:00 PM UTC-4, PeterN wrote:
[...]Good quality high capacity cards are not cheap.

I guess this depends on what one considers 'cheap' or not.

For example, a random "good" CF card at B&H today is $80 for
a 64GB card, or $1.25/GB. That's downright cheap in comparison
to how much memory cards cost 5, 10 (or more) years ago.

And for this $80, at roughly 30MB per (RAW+JPG pair) image,
it represents 2000+ photos ... that's 10 days at 200 images/day
(or 5 days @ 400/day, etc).


I would find out at which points there are provisions for
back ups to the cloud.

YMMV. I've found that I can travel lighter (and without a
laptop) by simply "throwing money" to have more cards.
Specifically, enough to last the whole vacation so that
I don't need to carry the extra weight of a laptop or to
spend time finding an internet kiosk that I could upload.

For example, I got a new camera last year and caught a nice
sale at B&H: paid $100 for 192GB (2@32GB + 2@64GB). Lexar
800x UDMA CF Cards.


As I see it power for batteries is the biggest problem.

Yup...but again, when compared to the cost of an international
vacation, another 4 * $50 = $200 for batteries (or whatever)
that you'll be able to repeatedly use for the next ~5 years
worth of vacations is an expense that's an initial nuisance,
but not really a big deal when viewed in context of how many
such trips it will be an enabler. Ditto for buying a second
battery charger for redundancy (risk reduction) for $20:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/837451-REG/watson_c_1517_compact_charger_f_canon_lpe6.html


Depending on their camera's battery usage, figure battery
usage per day, and bring bring enough batteries to get them
to the charging station furthest from the preceding station.
While there is a fair amount of planning involved. it is
worth doing so.


Agreed, and the data requirements really aren't all that bad;
just need:

A = # of days away from next chance for power
B = # of days away from the next-after- of "A", above

C = expected # of photos per battery pack for camera A, B, (etc)
D = expected # of photos you expect to take on each day
E = risk management fudge factor (percentage)

Thus:

A*(D/C) = minimum number of battery packs expected to be used

(A*(D/C)*E) + (B*(D/C)*E) = "Risk management" practical upper limit

Applying some notional numbers for a single camera:

A=4
B=2
C=800 (Canon 7D's CIPA standard, w/Optical Viewfinder)
D=300
E=+50% margin

The minimum number of battery packs expected to be used:
= A*(D/C)
= (4 days)*(300pix per day/800pics per battery)
= 1.5 batteries ... so take two.

The "Risk management" practical upper limit:
= (A*(D/C)*E) + (B*(D/C)*E)
= (4*(300/800)*1.5)+(2*(300/800)*1.5)
= 2.25 + 1.225 = 3.375 batteries ... so take four.

Similarly for memory cards,

F = Camera's average # shots per 32GB card (or whatever)
(for a Canon 7D, assume ~1000 shots per 32GB card)

The minimum number of 32GB cards expected to be needed:
= A*(D/F) = (4 days)*(300 shots per day / 1000 per 32GB card)
= 1.2 cards ... so take 2 cards

The "Risk management" practical upper limit:
= (A*(D/F)*E)+(B*(D/F)*E)
= (4*(300/1000)*1.5)+(2*(300/1000)*1.5)
= 2.7 cards ... so take 3 cards

Alternatively:

G = total length of vacation
H = number of days in G where the shots/day rate from D applies
J = average # of shots/day for where H doesn't apply (such as in-transit)

Let:

G = 14 days
H = 4 days
J = 100/day

Total trip memory card "magazine depth" requirement estimate:

= (H*(D/F)*E)) + ((G-H)*(D/F)*E)
= (4*(100/1000)*1.5)+(14-4)*(300/1000)*1.5)
= (0.6) + (4.5)
= 5.1 cards ... so take six

(or cut it closer by refining to 5.1*32GB = 163GB required)

Depends on the camera, and file settings.
D800 shooting at 14bit uncompressed RAW is 74.4 MB.
D500 shooting at 14bit uncompressed RAW is 25.0 MB.

Other modes have considerably less. Basic arithmetic will tell you that
you cannot get thousands of images when shooting at 14 bit uncompressed
NEF.
That is why I said it depends on the camera and shooting mode. I
typically shoot at 14 bit RAW. Others may not, and there are times when
I don't. (I will not get into a debate about bit depth, I like to do
tings that way, have done lots of reading and testing.)




--
PeterN

On 11/2/2017 6:50 AM, Whisky-dave wrote:
On Wednesday, 1 November 2017 17:31:00 UTC, PeterN wrote:
On 11/1/2017 9:09 AM, nospam wrote:

snip


meanwhile, those with digital cameras can shoot several thousand photos
on a memory card the size of a postage stamp, and in some cases, on a
single battery charge.


I suppose you know Which camera they use, and whether they shoot only in
RAW. Good quality high capacity cards are not cheap. I would find out at
which points there are provisions for back ups to the cloud. I would get
no higher capacity cards than they estimate will be shooting in one day,
+ a fudge factor of 25%. Bring as many cards, as days they will be away
from a place where they can backup to the cloud.

But there isn't a card on the market that will record if there's no power to them or the camera. So even buying a billion 256GB cards wonlt get you any photos without power, which is why the OP was asking about charging.
No power no photos it's a simple as that.

Places to upload to the cloud prescriptively have power to recharge the
batteries.



As I see it power for batteries is the biggest problem.

Yep the OP realised that too.

Depending on
their camera's battery usage, figure battery usage per day, and bring
bring enough batteries to get them to the charging station furthest from
the preceding station. While there is a fair amount of planning
involved. it is worth doing so.

Yep which is why the OP was asking about charging and not about how many and what size memory cards to take.

This is one of the very few advantages of having a camera that takes common size batteries such as AA AAA, not only are you more likely to find a local shop selling AAs than the lastest DLSR decidated battery there's also the chance that someone might have a spare set to lend you.

I remmeber taking the batteris (AA) out of my motor drive to power the flash once.





--
PeterN

In article , PeterN
wrote:

Our other comments are obviously intended to start an argument. Sorry I
won't bite.

too late for that. you already bit.