ON THE GRIDIRON WITH THE 20D !!!

Dallas wrote:

On Sat, 02 Oct 2004 14:23:08 +0000, Annika1980 had this to say:

From: Alan Browne

http://www.pbase.com/bret/image/34504445

Good potential there with the stadium lights providing light... did you
consider shooting that slower (same ISO, smaller aperture) with
rear-curtain
sync?

No, I confess that after the ball was snapped I didn't really have a lot
of time to think about it.

I've tried shooting using the flash as the primary light, but the results
are much less pleasing without some ambient light. You end up with the
foreground players nicely exposed amongst a sea of black. Of course, if I
did this I'd use much lower ISOs.

You're lucky that player didn't come over and smack you upside the head
for using flash at a sporting event. What happened to the noiseless
1600ISO? Why flash?

Precisely my question! I think that flash does make sense
in a stadium with all this flood light and at such distance!

Thomas

On Sat, 02 Oct 2004 17:55:52 +0000, Annika1980 had this to say:

From: Dallas

You're lucky that player didn't come over and smack you upside the head
for using flash at a sporting event. What happened to the noiseless
1600ISO? Why flash?

You really don't understand a lot about this stuff, do ya?

Maybe this little tutorial will help splain it to you. Here are two
consecutive frames, one with flash, and one without.

http://members.aol.com/annika1980/dumbdallas.jpg

Flash is a no-no in professional sports photography. You are supposed to
use fast lenses and fast ISO. You did the latter, but not the former,
which is why your shot looks gloomy. But what do I know? I'm just a dumb
Nikon user with no professional sports shooting experience.

BTW, I got accredited to do some soccer last weekend. Lost my cherry, so
to speak.

--
DD™
"And that's all I got to say about that" ~ FG

quote who=Dallas date=03/10/2004 05:31/

Flash is a no-no in professional sports photography. You are supposed to
use fast lenses and fast ISO. You did the latter, but not the former,
which is why your shot looks gloomy. But what do I know? I'm just a dumb
Nikon user with no professional sports shooting experience.

I really depends on the sport and on the venue. In football there is
no flash mostly because a flash can't cover the distance.. same for
soccer. In basketball, flash is the norm. The photogs put strobes up in
the rafters before the game and remote fire. It's the difference between
an average shot and a great shot often.

I'm not sure about hockey though. Something tells me they don't use
strobes.

http://www.siphoto.com/?FinalFourRules.inc

J



--
Justin F. Knotzke

http://www.shampoo.ca

Dallas wrote:


Flash is a no-no in professional sports photography.

You better tell all those professional photogs at NBA and NHL games then.



--
"There is no such thing as inaccuracy in a photograph.
All photographs are accurate. None of them is the truth."
-Richard Avedon
-- rec.photo.equipment.35mm user resource:
-- http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
-- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.--

Justin F. Knotzke wrote:

quote who=Dallas date=03/10/2004 05:31/

Flash is a no-no in professional sports photography. You are supposed to
use fast lenses and fast ISO. You did the latter, but not the former,
which is why your shot looks gloomy. But what do I know? I'm just a dumb
Nikon user with no professional sports shooting experience.


I really depends on the sport and on the venue. In football there is
no flash mostly because a flash can't cover the distance.. same for
soccer. In basketball, flash is the norm. The photogs put strobes up in
the rafters before the game and remote fire. It's the difference between
an average shot and a great shot often.

I'm not sure about hockey though. Something tells me they don't use
strobes.

The pj's I've met who shoot at the Montreal Canadiens games don't use strobe,
but they shoot at high ISO. The team photogs shoot at lower ISO and DO use the
strobes (which are permanently installed and use pocket wizards to trigger).
The PJ's have access to the same strobes, but since each photog is allocated a
rotating time slot to use them, it is too inconvenient. They need to shoot at
will and hence go for the higher ISO which is fine given the end use of the images.


http://www.siphoto.com/?FinalFourRules.inc

That's NCAA, but I would guess that there is a similar guideline/rule for the NBA.

Cheers,
Alan.


--
"There is no such thing as inaccuracy in a photograph.
All photographs are accurate. None of them is the truth."
-Richard Avedon
-- rec.photo.equipment.35mm user resource:
-- http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
-- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.--

quote who=Alan Browne date=03/10/2004 12:09/

The pj's I've met who shoot at the Montreal Canadiens games don't use
strobe, but they shoot at high ISO. The team photogs shoot at lower ISO
and DO use the strobes (which are permanently installed and use pocket
wizards to trigger). The PJ's have access to the same strobes, but since
each photog is allocated a rotating time slot to use them, it is too
inconvenient. They need to shoot at will and hence go for the higher
ISO which is fine given the end use of the images.

The reason why I didn't think they used strobes is I've never really
seen a hockey photo that 'pops'. There are great shots, but rarely that
have great contrast that a flash will give you (if used correctly of
course). Contrast that (pun intended) with NBA where all the shots have
great pop and I figured strobes weren't allowed or not used for whatever
reason.

It's bizaare that they aren't allowed to setup their own strobes. I
wonder why..

I have a buddy who coaches a local high school hockey team. He asked
the school if I could shoot some film using a couple of alien bees. The
school had no idea since no one has ever tried. They suggested I try a
practice before a game. Not sure I want to go to the hassle of setting
up the strobes, the wizards only to get no facial expressions since they
all wear helmets and full cages..

I have been thinking about doing something with multiple flashes for
bike racing. I have all winter to think about it..


That's NCAA, but I would guess that there is a similar guideline/rule
for the NBA.

Probably. That's SI's website for photogs. It explains what are
suggested settings for nearly everything. I just did a quick Google for it.

J



--
Justin F. Knotzke

http://www.shampoo.ca

quote who=Alan Browne date=03/10/2004 12:09/

The pj's I've met who shoot at the Montreal Canadiens games don't use
strobe, but they shoot at high ISO. The team photogs shoot at lower ISO
and DO use the strobes (which are permanently installed and use pocket
wizards to trigger). The PJ's have access to the same strobes, but since
each photog is allocated a rotating time slot to use them, it is too
inconvenient. They need to shoot at will and hence go for the higher
ISO which is fine given the end use of the images.

The reason why I didn't think they used strobes is I've never really
seen a hockey photo that 'pops'. There are great shots, but rarely that
have great contrast that a flash will give you (if used correctly of
course). Contrast that (pun intended) with NBA where all the shots have
great pop and I figured strobes weren't allowed or not used for whatever
reason.

It's bizaare that they aren't allowed to setup their own strobes. I
wonder why..

I have a buddy who coaches a local high school hockey team. He asked
the school if I could shoot some film using a couple of alien bees. The
school had no idea since no one has ever tried. They suggested I try a
practice before a game. Not sure I want to go to the hassle of setting
up the strobes, the wizards only to get no facial expressions since they
all wear helmets and full cages..

I have been thinking about doing something with multiple flashes for
bike racing. I have all winter to think about it..


That's NCAA, but I would guess that there is a similar guideline/rule
for the NBA.

Probably. That's SI's website for photogs. It explains what are
suggested settings for nearly everything. I just did a quick Google for it.

J



--
Justin F. Knotzke

http://www.shampoo.ca

Justin F. Knotzke wrote:


The reason why I didn't think they used strobes is I've never really
seen a hockey photo that 'pops'. There are great shots, but rarely that
have great contrast that a flash will give you (if used correctly of
course). Contrast that (pun intended) with NBA where all the shots have
great pop and I figured strobes weren't allowed or not used for whatever
reason.

It's bizaare that they aren't allowed to setup their own strobes. I
wonder why..

It's presented the other way around, "we've put some big strobes up there boys,
please enjoy. Share now..." ...also assures that the lights are not in anyway
going to interfere.

As to 'pop' a lot of basketball shots have a fairly dark background when shot
from the ends and crowd is in the back. With hockey, the ice is white and
borads are white (where they're not covered in adverts) and so the background
contrast is not as great).

I have a buddy who coaches a local high school hockey team. He asked
the school if I could shoot some film using a couple of alien bees. The
school had no idea since no one has ever tried. They suggested I try a
practice before a game. Not sure I want to go to the hassle of setting
up the strobes, the wizards only to get no facial expressions since they
all wear helmets and full cages..

Try it, you'll like it! The pro I did 1st communions for does exacty that, the
only probelm being that the slaves fire whenever any Mom/Dad takes a snap. Can
screw you up. You can use Pocket Wizards of course...


I have been thinking about doing something with multiple flashes for
bike racing. I have all winter to think about it..

Do you mean multiple strobes per image (multiple flash exposure), or just
several lights? I've shot volleyball with two strobes in place balanced with
ambient about 1 stop below... a little green cast but good ball trails at 1/15
to 1/30.

Cheers,
Alan

--
"There is no such thing as inaccuracy in a photograph.
All photographs are accurate. None of them is the truth."
-Richard Avedon
-- rec.photo.equipment.35mm user resource:
-- http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
-- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.--

Great image Annika,
It looks like you did in fact use rear-curtain flash with this shot - the
mixture of flash light and ambient light gives a really intense feeling of
movement.

But... Is that noise reduction I see in the background? The grass looks
like it's been put in a blender and then seasoned with salt and pepper.
Sorry to keep pestering you about these technical things (especially as you
do seem to love your 20D) - but I can't help noticing it. What might
explain it is if this is a major crop? I guess it probably is, since you
only used a 75mm lens. If you find this annoying, then I'm sure shooting
full-frame will get rid of the problem (that is if there is one, or it's
just me imagining one). If it's not a big crop, but you reduced the size,
then I doubt it can be noise reduction algorithms, and that's actually how
it looks.

Duncan.



"Annika1980" wrote in message
...
http://www.pbase.com/bret/image/34504445

Justin F. Knotzke wrote:

quote who=Alan Browne date=03/10/2004 17:09/

As to 'pop' a lot of basketball shots have a fairly dark background
when shot from the ends and crowd is in the back. With hockey, the
ice is white and borads are white (where they're not covered in
adverts) and so the background contrast is not as great).


Hmm, I hadn't thought about that. You are right. The pop wouldn't be
as great. I suppose then that's why photogs aren't trying as hard to use
strobes in arenas.

Try it, you'll like it! The pro I did 1st communions for does exacty
that, the only probelm being that the slaves fire whenever any Mom/Dad
takes a snap. Can screw you up. You can use Pocket Wizards of course...


Which is what I am thinking of doing.. After some insane overtime I
have some extra cash to blow. I still need a 80-200 and I'm thinking
used AFS or a new Sigma or Wizards. The wizards are pretty far down the
list though. I'd probably rent the whole mess.

Go used on the Nikkor, IMO, though the Tokina 80-200 f/2.8 is highly rated. I
ended up not buyin a used Tokina as the "internet" told me that some have
trouble with lubricant migration. (Bought a new Minolta instead).

They're $25/day at Photo Service. (+15 for additional receivers).

Did you use flashes or strobes?

Interchangeable term. "Strobe" is by definition not really correct, but is the
term one hears the most in the photography industry. Not sure why, but people
seem to call the 'attachment' type "Flash" and the studio type "strobe".


Do you mean multiple strobes per image (multiple flash exposure), or
just several lights? I've shot volleyball with two strobes in place
balanced with ambient about 1 stop below... a little green cast but
good ball trails at 1/15 to 1/30.


Several lights. I was thinking of setting up 2 or 3 SB-80's on the
corner of the race course and fire them all from below pointing up. One
on one side of the road, two others on the other side.

I heard volleyball is a biatch to shoot. Tough to focus and nail
the shot.. That true?

Believe me I took the easy way out and shot pretty wide with the 80-200 or the
28-70 (And a few with the camera and 20mm above the net post at the end of my
monopod, pre-focused (f/11) and remote cable release), but the flashes were in
the wrong position to make that really work ... I'll try again this year ...
maybe). I tried a few from the back, focus on the net and click on action.
Works but not great. Catching a good defensive dig after a smash, closeup, has
not been in my cards. (I only try this about once every couple years with my gang).

Cheers,
Alan

--
"There is no such thing as inaccuracy in a photograph.
All photographs are accurate. None of them is the truth."
-Richard Avedon
-- rec.photo.equipment.35mm user resource:
-- http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
-- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.--