Nikon D80 - Buy Body Only or Body with Kit Lens?

Hello All, I have read many of the articles posted in this forum
regarding the new Nikon D80, thank you for all the information, as well
as the many links to reviews, provided.

I have been a photo enthusiast for many years and purchased my first
Nikon F in 1972. Over the next few years I added a Nikon FM with a
motor drive and a Nikkormat as well as different lenses to my
collection. Admittedly I have been very slow to migrate to digital SLR,
as I truly LOVE my Nikon film cameras and equipment.

Well it's finally time for the leap to digital and it's just in time for
Christmas too!! I have decided to buy the Nikon D80. My experience
with film cameras was to purchase the body only as I already had a
selection of lenses to use with that body.

My preferred style in photography has always been to use "manual" mode,
manually selecting aperture and shutter speed. If I made an error in
settings, I tried to correct it in the film and/or print development.
I'm not sure how I'll adapt to the new "auto everything" mode, and I
suspect that trial and error will tell. The good thing is that with
digital is that there is no additional costs associated with trial and
error as compared to film.

Sorry for being long winded, but my question is very simple. Do I but
the Nikon D80 body only and buy X? lens or do I buy the Nikon D80 with
the lens (18-135) kit?

It should be noted that as this is my first purchase in digital I don't
have a lens to use with the camera.

Thank you for your consideration.

Bill

Bill Gillespie wrote:

...
I have been a photo enthusiast for many years and purchased my first
Nikon F in 1972. Over the next few years I added a Nikon FM with a
motor drive and a Nikkormat as well as different lenses to my
collection. Admittedly I have been very slow to migrate to digital SLR,
as I truly LOVE my Nikon film cameras and equipment.

Well it's finally time for the leap to digital and it's just in time for
Christmas too!! I have decided to buy the Nikon D80. My experience
with film cameras was to purchase the body only as I already had a
selection of lenses to use with that body.

My preferred style in photography has always been to use "manual" mode,
manually selecting aperture and shutter speed. If I made an error in
settings, I tried to correct it in the film and/or print development.
I'm not sure how I'll adapt to the new "auto everything" mode, and I
suspect that trial and error will tell. The good thing is that with
digital is that there is no additional costs associated with trial and
error as compared to film.

Sorry for being long winded, but my question is very simple. Do I but
the Nikon D80 body only and buy X? lens or do I buy the Nikon D80 with
the lens (18-135) kit?

It should be noted that as this is my first purchase in digital I don't
have a lens to use with the camera.

Your old lenses should work, the only thing missing is probably a wider
angle walkaround lens. It seems the 18-135 is designed as an
'everything' lens (28-200 equivalent) so maybe that's good for you to
have AF at such a wide range or maybe better to get an 18-70 or a 12-24
or nothing for now & save up for an 18-55/2.8 DX or 17-35/2.8

Ummm, hmm 1972 so I think that's pre-AI and you won't be able to meter
without having the lenses chipped or get a D200... I'm not certain,
something to investigate... Tell us exactly which lenses do you have and
folks can comment on whether the 18-135 is good for you. And what type
of photography you want to pursue; low light indoor family shots,
wildlife, architecture, closeups, etc.

--
Paul Furman
http://www.edgehill.net/1
Bay Natives
http://www.baynatives.com

"Bill Gillespie" wrote in message
news:mcM5h.300901$R63.155497@pd7urf1no...

Sorry for being long winded, but my question is very simple. Do I
but the Nikon D80 body only and buy X? lens or do I buy the Nikon
D80 with the lens (18-135) kit?

The D80 has a smaller sensor, so the images will appear cropped using
regular 35mm lenses. All your lenses should work as though they're a
bit longer, so you may need a new wide angle to cover the reduced FOV.

If wide angle is important, you may want to consider the 18-70 DX
f/3.5-4.5 lense which is very good for the price and has more to offer
over the 18-135.

It should be noted that as this is my first purchase in digital I
don't have a lens to use with the camera.

What's wrong with your other lenses? Your old 35mm lenses should work,
unless they are all AI and manual focus.

If you have a bunch of AI lenses, the D80 will not meter with them.
You need the D200 for those lenses.

Paul Furman wrote:


Your old lenses should work, the only thing missing is probably a wider
angle walkaround lens. It seems the 18-135 is designed as an
'everything' lens (28-200 equivalent) so maybe that's good for you to
have AF at such a wide range or maybe better to get an 18-70 or a 12-24
or nothing for now & save up for an 18-55/2.8 DX or 17-35/2.8

The lenses I plan to continue using are a Nikkor 105mm lens with the A1
bracket and a Vivitar Series 1 70-210 zoom with macro which also has an
A1 bracket.


Ummm, hmm 1972 so I think that's pre-AI and you won't be able to meter
without having the lenses chipped or get a D200... I'm not certain,
something to investigate... Tell us exactly which lenses do you have and
folks can comment on whether the 18-135 is good for you. And what type
of photography you want to pursue; low light indoor family shots,
wildlife, architecture, closeups, etc.


I have been doing quite a bit of research on the Nikon Canada website
and from what I have seen my lenses should work with the D80, however I
won't be able to use features such as metering...and that's OK.

I am looking for a high quality walk around lens. There are a few
lenses on the Nikon website, there's the AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 18-135mm
f/3.5-5.6G IF-ED that comes with the D80, there's the AF-S DX
Zoom-Nikkor 17-55mm f/2.8G IF-ED (which has a high price tag), and the
AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 18-70mm f/3.5-4.5G IF-ED.

Thanks, Bill

Bill wrote:


The D80 has a smaller sensor, so the images will appear cropped using
regular 35mm lenses. All your lenses should work as though they're a bit
longer, so you may need a new wide angle to cover the reduced FOV.

If wide angle is important, you may want to consider the 18-70 DX
f/3.5-4.5 lense which is very good for the price and has more to offer
over the 18-135.

Thanks for the feedback.


What's wrong with your other lenses? Your old 35mm lenses should work,
unless they are all AI and manual focus.

If you have a bunch of AI lenses, the D80 will not meter with them. You
need the D200 for those lenses.

I plan to use my older AI lenses and the metering won't work on the D80.
The D200 body is priced at $1829 while the D80 is priced at $1079. Is
it worth the difference in price for an amateur photog?

According to Paul Furman :
Bill Gillespie wrote:

...
I have been a photo enthusiast for many years and purchased my first
Nikon F in 1972. Over the next few years I added a Nikon FM with a
motor drive and a Nikkormat as well as different lenses to my
collection. Admittedly I have been very slow to migrate to digital SLR,
as I truly LOVE my Nikon film cameras and equipment.

Well it's finally time for the leap to digital and it's just in time for
Christmas too!! I have decided to buy the Nikon D80. My experience
with film cameras was to purchase the body only as I already had a
selection of lenses to use with that body.

[ ... ]

Sorry for being long winded, but my question is very simple. Do I but
the Nikon D80 body only and buy X? lens or do I buy the Nikon D80 with
the lens (18-135) kit?

It should be noted that as this is my first purchase in digital I don't
have a lens to use with the camera.

Your old lenses should work, the only thing missing is probably a wider
angle walkaround lens. It seems the 18-135 is designed as an
'everything' lens (28-200 equivalent) so maybe that's good for you to
have AF at such a wide range or maybe better to get an 18-70 or a 12-24
or nothing for now & save up for an 18-55/2.8 DX or 17-35/2.8

Ummm, hmm 1972 so I think that's pre-AI and you won't be able to meter
without having the lenses chipped or get a D200... I'm not certain,
something to investigate...

It is indeed pre-AI, and the lens will not even *mount* on the
camera without modification. (The same with my D70 -- and the same
with the D200.) What will be necessary at a minimum is getting
replacement aperture rings in the AI style still available for some
lenses), or having the existing aperture rings modified to clear the
sensors on the camera, and to even actuate the sensors. There are two
things on the AI modified lens which are not present on the pre-AI
lenses, and both represent removal of metal from the aperture ring.

One (needed to work mount on the D70) is a tab which is about at
9:00 o'clock when viewing the camera from the lens side, and which tells
the D70 (and presumably the D80) whether the lens aperture ring is
stopped all the way down, thus assuring that the camera can control the
aperture through its full range.

The other (which will be useful on later film cameras such as
the N90s, and on the D200 -- I'm not sure about the D80) is another tab
which moves through the 1:00 o'clock region, and tells the camera body
how many stops you are currently set below the wide open setting for the
camera body, so it can calculate the proper shutter speed based on
metering with the lens wide open.

Without these (e.g. a non-AI lens) the sensors which the camera
bodies have will hit the aperture ring and prevent the lens from moving
close enough to the body to operate the bayonet -- and if forced *may*
break the sensor linkage within the camera body.

The good news is that there is at least one fellow on the web
who offers modification of such lenses. Even if the D80 only needs the
first of the two (the closed down fully), I would suggest that you spend
the extra money to have both modifications put in at the same time, so
you are ready to work on the D200 and other higher-end Nikon bodies.

The fellow who used to add chips to selected lenses seems to
have stopped offering that service.

Tell us exactly which lenses do you have and
folks can comment on whether the 18-135 is good for you. And what type
of photography you want to pursue; low light indoor family shots,
wildlife, architecture, closeups, etc.

Indeed so.

Good Luck,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

According to Bill Gillespie :
Bill wrote:

[ ... ]

What's wrong with your other lenses? Your old 35mm lenses should work,
unless they are all AI and manual focus.

If you have a bunch of AI lenses, the D80 will not meter with them. You
need the D200 for those lenses.

I plan to use my older AI lenses and the metering won't work on the D80.
The D200 body is priced at $1829 while the D80 is priced at $1079. Is
it worth the difference in price for an amateur photog?

It depends on how many older AI lenses you have and wish to use
in a convenient manner. (Or whether you are willing to modify any pre-AI
lenses which came with your original Nikon-F.) And -- on whether you
wish to use the metering in the camera body, instead of just a hand-held
meter. (Compare the cost of replacing those lenses with the cost
difference between the two bodies.)

I have a few AI lenses, and am hoping to move up from my D70 to
a D200 so I can use those lenses with metering. (The D200 did not exist
when I got my D70.)

I also have quite a few pre-AI lenses, which I hope to
eventually modify (especially the more extreme focal lengths) so I can
mount them on the D70, and eventually meter with them on the future
D200.

Enjoy,
DoN.
--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

According to Bill Gillespie :
Paul Furman wrote:


Your old lenses should work, the only thing missing is probably a wider
angle walkaround lens. It seems the 18-135 is designed as an
'everything' lens (28-200 equivalent) so maybe that's good for you to
have AF at such a wide range or maybe better to get an 18-70 or a 12-24
or nothing for now & save up for an 18-55/2.8 DX or 17-35/2.8

The lenses I plan to continue using are a Nikkor 105mm lens with the A1
bracket and a Vivitar Series 1 70-210 zoom with macro which also has an
A1 bracket.

Hmm ... You're saying "A1" bracket, not AI bracket (it should be
the letter 'I', not the numeral '1'). Are you perhaps referring to the
half-moon clip on the aperture ring which coupled to the Photomic T and
Photomic Tn finder prisms? If so -- that is *not* what is needed to
couple to (or even to *mount* on) the D70 or D200 (and presumably also
the D80). The "AI" aperture ring has interruptions in the skirt of the
aperture ring closest to the lens mount.

I have an older Vivitar zoom of similar range (though without
the macro capability) and the T4 adaptor for it does *not* have the AI
ring -- only the half-moon clip for the Photomic finder/meter.

And *which* 105mm Nikkor? I see two listed in the old

_Nikon F/Nikormat Handbook of Photography_ (Copyright 1968)

One is a 105mm f2.5 and looks like a very nice lens.

The other is a 105mm f4 *preset* (not even an auto diaphragm).

Neither of them have the AI aperture ring, and the preset one
could not be adapted to have it.

So -- it is certainly possible that you could have ones without
the AI aperture ring.

I've just found that the fellow who does the chip fitting to
older lenses is back in business, and he includes a 105mm f1.8, and a
105mm f4 macro.

Check out http://home.carolina.rr.com/headshots/Nikonhome.htm
for the fellow who does the chip modification.

I have an 180mm f2.8 which he installed a chip in for my D70.

Pacific rim camera http://www.pacificrimcamera.com/ has AI
conversion kits for quite a few Nikkor lenses, but not for any 105mm
version. However, go to the URL above, click on "catalog", scroll down
to "NIKON", and click on it. Scroll that page down to the "NIKON REPAIR
PARTS" section, and click on "NIKON LENS AI CONVERSION KITS". Scroll
down to the first entry with a pink "PHOTO" entry, and click on that to
get an image of a typical AI aperture ring. Notice how much of the ring
is standing clear of the surface on which it was photographed. Starting
at the f22 marking, and going to the left, you can see one of the tabs
which enage the camera sensors. The other is just barely visible to the
right. If your aperture rings look like this, you can mount the lenses
on a D70, a D200 (and presumably a D80). If not, you will have to have
the lens modified. (Unfortunately, the web site above keeps displaying
the home page URL and uses frames to select areas, so I can't simply
post the URL of the ring itself.) (The AI kits also have the half-moon
clip for the older cameras with the Photomic finders. You can see it
beside the ring, but not yet mounted on it.)

I apparently never bookmarked the site which will modify
existing aperture rings to AI style -- but a web search should find it
for you if you need it.

Now -- you do know that your existing lenses will give coverage
on a digital as though they were longer focal length? The 105mm would
give coverage as though it were 157.5mm, and the 70-210mm would give
coverage as though it was a 105-315mm. So -- your need for a new lens
will probably be towards the wide angle end of the spectrum. I actually
got my D70 as body only, and later, as I discovered how well received it
was for the price, I got the D70's "kit" lens -- the 18-70mm (equivalent
to 27-105mm on a film camera).


Ummm, hmm 1972 so I think that's pre-AI and you won't be able to meter
without having the lenses chipped or get a D200... I'm not certain,
something to investigate... Tell us exactly which lenses do you have and
folks can comment on whether the 18-135 is good for you. And what type
of photography you want to pursue; low light indoor family shots,
wildlife, architecture, closeups, etc.


I have been doing quite a bit of research on the Nikon Canada website
and from what I have seen my lenses should work with the D80, however I
won't be able to use features such as metering...and that's OK.

If they do not have the AI ring -- you will not be able to
*mount* them without probably breaking the sensor on the camera body --
unless you get the aperture rings modified.

I am looking for a high quality walk around lens. There are a few
lenses on the Nikon website, there's the AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 18-135mm
f/3.5-5.6G IF-ED that comes with the D80, there's the AF-S DX
Zoom-Nikkor 17-55mm f/2.8G IF-ED (which has a high price tag), and the
AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 18-70mm f/3.5-4.5G IF-ED.

The 18-70mm is a very nice lens for the money, and might be a
good one to start with, at least.

Good Luck,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Bill Gillespie wrote:

I plan to use my older AI lenses and the metering won't work on
the D80. The D200 body is priced at $1829 while the D80 is
priced at $1079. Is it worth the difference in price for an
amateur photog?

That depends on how much you use the camera, and what you shoot.
If you shoot several hundreds of exposures per month, and/or
tend to shoot objects that are not static (children, sporting
events, etc.), you might want to think about AF lenses and maybe
the more expensive body too. You'll find that AF lenses are
well worth the cost when objects are moving when you shoot.

Non-metering with Ai (or with a D200 or D2 body, pre-Ai lenses)
is a significant inconvenience that perhaps is not tolerable as
a day in day out problem. But for occasional use where it would
otherwise not be possible, it certainly is something that can be
done. For example, modern long telephoto lenses with AF and VR
are very expensive; but Ai lenses cost less, and pre-Ai lenses
even less. If you have occasional need for an 800mm f/5.6
lense, the fact that the metering on the camera does not work
may not be nearly as significant as the several thousands of
dollars difference in price of the lense!

--
Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)

DoN. Nichols wrote:

Hello Don and thank you for the information and links you provided.

I have taken a closer look at my 105mm f.25-f32 lens and at my Vivitar
zoom lens and they *appear* to have the same ring as shown in the
pictures you referred to. In any case, at least I know there is a
distinct possibility that my older lenses can work with a new Digital
SLR, even if they require modification.

As for my dilemma, I was debating between the DX 18-135 and the DX 18-70
lens, but the debate has grown to include camera bodies as well. I am
now leaning towards the D200 rather than the D80 because of the
advantages of using my older lenses. As for the difference in price,
well I have to consider my own experience in that the last camera body I
bought lasted 30 years. So if you consider the difference in price
($750) over 20 years it costs about $37.50 per year. Not much to think
about.

If only I was as convinced when it comes to lenses.


It is indeed pre-AI, and the lens will not even *mount* on the
camera without modification. (The same with my D70 -- and the same
with the D200.) What will be necessary at a minimum is getting
replacement aperture rings in the AI style still available for some
lenses), or having the existing aperture rings modified to clear the
sensors on the camera, and to even actuate the sensors. There are two
things on the AI modified lens which are not present on the pre-AI
lenses, and both represent removal of metal from the aperture ring.

One (needed to work mount on the D70) is a tab which is about at
9:00 o'clock when viewing the camera from the lens side, and which tells
the D70 (and presumably the D80) whether the lens aperture ring is
stopped all the way down, thus assuring that the camera can control the
aperture through its full range.

The other (which will be useful on later film cameras such as
the N90s, and on the D200 -- I'm not sure about the D80) is another tab
which moves through the 1:00 o'clock region, and tells the camera body
how many stops you are currently set below the wide open setting for the
camera body, so it can calculate the proper shutter speed based on
metering with the lens wide open.

Without these (e.g. a non-AI lens) the sensors which the camera
bodies have will hit the aperture ring and prevent the lens from moving
close enough to the body to operate the bayonet -- and if forced *may*
break the sensor linkage within the camera body.

The good news is that there is at least one fellow on the web
who offers modification of such lenses. Even if the D80 only needs the
first of the two (the closed down fully), I would suggest that you spend
the extra money to have both modifications put in at the same time, so
you are ready to work on the D200 and other higher-end Nikon bodies.

The fellow who used to add chips to selected lenses seems to
have stopped offering that service.