Leica M8 Reliability problems/returns????

I'm considering buying a Leica M8. I owned an M6 a few years ago and fell
in love with the typical Leica qualities, i.e. compact size, light weight,
phenomenal optics, silent shutter, etc.

But a dear friend of mine who belongs to a "Leica List" on the net said he's
been hearing horror stories from a number of Leica fans (and we know how
biased they are TOWARDS their Leicas) about the M8. And these are
apparently problems beyond the IR and banding problems so often discussed.

Has anyone heard similar issues about the reliability of the M8?

This has me worried enough to consider waiting until the M10 is released....

Thanks,
John

"John Smith" wrote in message
...
I'm considering buying a Leica M8. I owned an M6 a few years ago and fell
in love with the typical Leica qualities, i.e. compact size, light weight,
phenomenal optics, silent shutter, etc.

But a dear friend of mine who belongs to a "Leica List" on the net said
he's been hearing horror stories from a number of Leica fans (and we know
how biased they are TOWARDS their Leicas) about the M8. And these are
apparently problems beyond the IR and banding problems so often discussed.

Has anyone heard similar issues about the reliability of the M8?

This has me worried enough to consider waiting until the M10 is
released....

Thanks,
John




From what I have read Leica designed the M8 for a specific audience. That is
why they made the choices in sensor filters that they did. I would suggest
you try and find out who that audience is and if you are one of them.

The Spider

--
If stupid was fruit, Washington D.C. would be an orchard!

I know what audience I'm in but that has nothing to do with reliability,
mechanical failures, returns, etc - the stuff I asked about.

"The Spider Formally Seated Next To Little Miss Muffet"
wrote in message ...
"John Smith" wrote in message
...
I'm considering buying a Leica M8. I owned an M6 a few years ago and
fell in love with the typical Leica qualities, i.e. compact size, light
weight, phenomenal optics, silent shutter, etc.

But a dear friend of mine who belongs to a "Leica List" on the net said
he's been hearing horror stories from a number of Leica fans (and we know
how biased they are TOWARDS their Leicas) about the M8. And these are
apparently problems beyond the IR and banding problems so often
discussed.

Has anyone heard similar issues about the reliability of the M8?

This has me worried enough to consider waiting until the M10 is
released....

Thanks,
John




From what I have read Leica designed the M8 for a specific audience. That
is why they made the choices in sensor filters that they did. I would
suggest you try and find out who that audience is and if you are one of
them.

The Spider

--
If stupid was fruit, Washington D.C. would be an orchard!

"John Smith" wrote:
I know what audience I'm in but that has nothing to do with reliability,
mechanical failures, returns, etc - the stuff I asked about.

This is the wrong place to ask that question; I think there's only one
person here who's seriously interested in actually acquiring an M8.

The rest of us here have figured out that you'd have to be seriously nuts to
spend that much money on such a badly defective camera (no IR filter, no
low-pass filter (which really is required on a Bayer sensor), and lousy high
ISO performance) so we wouldn't know about reliability.

As someone who once owned a Leicaflex, I can't imagine there being any
_mechanical_ reliability problems with the M8, but if the electronics are as
bad as the sensor...

Leicas really are nicely made, but if you care about the quality of the
images you produce, there are lots of better cameras. The two that I'd
recommend would be the Mamiya 7 and Canon 5D. The Nikon 3D should be pretty
sweet too, but the weight, bulk, and price put me off.

David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan

"John Smith" wrote:

I know what audience I'm in but that has nothing to do with reliability,
mechanical failures, returns, etc - the stuff I asked about.


I pre-ordered an M8 but the early problems (banding especially) put me
off buying one. So when my M8 arrived I transferred the order to a
friend who just *had* to have one. He paid me the deposit I had paid
the Leica dealer and paid the balance to the dealer.

The infra-red problem began to be noticed just after I escaped from
the deal. Had I known about the infra-red problem I would have run a
mile. You have to use UV/IR "hot mirror" filters to avoid it, and
those filters bring with them a lot of problems, especially severe
colour fringing with wide angle lenses. If you shoot RAW (actually
DNG) you can remove the fringing with careful post-processing, but
this takes time.

There are problems of light fall-off (vignetting) with many Leica
lenses, and chromatic aberration on a scale that you never seem to see
with film. These effects can be reduced or eliminated in-camera if
you shoot JPEG and use 6-bit coded Leica lenses, because the firmware
corrects for it. If you shoot RAW, you will have some post-processing
to do. RAW shooting gives greater dynamic range and is therefore
preferred.

As for reliability, mechanical failures and returns, the first year
after the introduction of the M8 was more or a less a beta test.
Reliability was poor, with many just dying - becoming completely
unresponsive. Many could not read SD cards reliably.

All the early M8s were recalled for (if I recall correctly) a sensor
change which solved the banding issue. Later M8s seem to be more
reliable but Leica are still dealing with large numbers of returns,
less than before but still a lot.

Unlike the trusty M6, paying a lot of money for an M8 does not carry
any guarantee of reliability. The fact the M8 is hand-made in small
quantities adds to the cost but does nothing to help the reliability
of what is a very complex electronic device in a traditional shell.

My friend who took over my M8 order has had his M8 body replaced three
times under warranty, the first for the sensor change (there were
other issues which meant a full replacement body had to be offered)
and the other two because the camera just died. In between, there
were other problems which required service attention twice. He has
given up on the M8 and when the last brand new body arrived, he
promptly sold it.

I have seen nothing that makes me want an M8. Some users are getting
very good results, but only with what is - to me - a disproportionate
amount of time spent post-processing. The M8's reliability is still
questionable. It costs a fortune for "only" 10 MP.

But it has its good points. The camera manages to combine
successfully the incomparable handling of a Leica M with digital
capture. The absence of an anti-alias filter makes for much sharper
and more detailed images than "only" 10 MP would suggest. The sensor
is good enough to allow the fine optical qualities of many Leica
lenses to be realised in digital form. If you must have a new digital
rangefinder camera with the M mount it is the only game in town.

So for the keen amateur with plenty of time to remove aberrations in
post-processing and the money to pay for what is probably the most
expensive 10 MP camera on the market, the M8 might make sense. But it
doesn't do it for me, not by a long way.

I still keep a "Leica" outfit although my bodies are made by Konica
(Hexar RF) and Minolta, and I am gradually replacing my Leica lenses
with Carl Zeiss ZM equivalents. I shoot film and scan it, and the
results are (technically) every bit as superb as they always were.

But my main outfit consists of two Canon EOS 5D bodies and a set of
mostly Carl Zeiss (Contax) fixed focal length lenses with EOS
adapters, plus Canon 16-35mm, 24-105mm and 70-200mm L lenses. I would
not swap one of my 5Ds for an M8, even though I can buy two 5Ds for
the price of an M8 and have enough to spare for a good lens.

If you really must have a new digital rangefinder body, the M8 is the
only game in town. If you are prepared to buy used, there is the
Epson R-D1 (and R-D1s) which was thought to be flaky and unreliable
until the M8's problems caused people to revise their opinion. Epson's
after-sales service is patchy at best but the mechanical parts of the
camera (especially the rangefinder) can be serviced by any technician
who is experienced with Voigtlanders - the camera is closely based on
the Bessa R2.

If I decided to buy a digital rangefinder now, I would buy the Epson
and take a chance that it stays reliable. But I will probably wait
until there is an M9, or a Zeiss Ikon D. In the meantime, there is
still film.

If you do buy an M8, consider buying the Carl Zeiss ZM lenses which
are much more digital-friendly than the older Leica lenses. The
latest Leica lenses (28mm Elmarit-M ASPH and the new, less expensive
Summarit range) are digital-friendly too, but the Carl Zeiss ZM lenses
offer wider apertures at the same price as the f/2.5 Summarits, or
less, and exceptionally competent optical performance.

Tony Polson wrote:
"John Smith" wrote:
I know what audience I'm in but that has nothing to do with reliability,
mechanical failures, returns, etc - the stuff I asked about.


I pre-ordered an M8 but the early problems (banding especially) put me
off buying one. So when my M8 arrived I transferred the order to a
friend who just *had* to have one. He paid me the deposit I had paid
the Leica dealer and paid the balance to the dealer.

The infra-red problem began to be noticed just after I escaped from
the deal. Had I known about the infra-red problem I would have run a
mile. You have to use UV/IR "hot mirror" filters to avoid it, and
those filters bring with them a lot of problems, especially severe
colour fringing with wide angle lenses. If you shoot RAW (actually
DNG) you can remove the fringing with careful post-processing, but
this takes time.


And Tony Polson wrote this back in August:

The vast majority of M8 users will never encounter or notice the IR
problem. Only if you cannot tolerate the possibility of ever seeing a
magenta cast on a man-made fabric do you need to use the filters at
all times.

* Disappointing in-camera JPEG engine delivers sub-par results
(jagged artifacts, moire, lower resolution) especially when you see
what's available from RAW

Don't be ridiculous. No-one who is serious about their photography
would ever use JPEG. This isn't a snapshot camera!

* Really need to shoot RAW to realize the potential of the camera

See above.

* Rangefinder disadvantages: you don't look through the lens, no
depth of field preview, framelines indicate frame size not viewfinder
view, no auto focus, virtually no telephoto lenses (beyond ~135 mm, 90
mm a sensible maximum), accessory viewfinder required for certain lenses

Surprise! The M8 is a rangefinder camera. If you don't like
rangefinder cameras, don't even bother to comment.

If people want to buy a rangefinder camera, they will find the Leica M
series is the best available. If people want a new digital
rangefinder camera, the M8 is the only game in town. If they want a
DSLR, they should buy a DSLR.

The M8 is not a DSLR and cannot be criticised simply because it isn't
one. It just isn't. Period.

* Slightly dull (low saturation) color response by default (easy to
adjust)

So it doesn't give a vivid, over-saturated image like a low-end
consumer DSLR? Now there's a surprise. Not.

* Poor automatic white balance in artificial light

Set white balance manually. Shoot RAW.

* No communciation contact between the lens and body means aperture
isn't recorded

Do you want it to wipe your ass for you too? Or clean up your drool?

* You need to have your M lenses six-bit coded for the optimum
image quality

No, you darn well don't! You can set up corrections for each lens in
image editing software.

* You really have to want it, $4800 for the body and $1600 for a 50
mm lens

Just don't buy it. Like other anti-Leica trolls, you quite clearly
don't understand it, and you can't afford it.

Life is *so* tough.

* You really have to want it, $4800 for the body and $1600 for a 50
mm lens

Just don't buy it. Like other anti-Leica trolls, you quite clearly
don't understand it, and you can't afford it.

Life is *so* tough.
-------------------------------------------------

COULD easily afford it. Would love for it to be the camera it SHOULD be.
Will wait until it IS.

Have happily been paying a premium for Leica RFDR equipment for years.
Would do the same for
a Leica digital, but not until it matches the quality AND reliability of
their film cameras.

ds

On Dec 11, 3:44 am, "G.T." wrote:
Tony Polson wrote:
"John Smith" wrote:
I know what audience I'm in but that has nothing to do with reliability,
mechanical failures, returns, etc - the stuff I asked about.

I pre-ordered an M8 but the early problems (banding especially) put me
off buying one. So when my M8 arrived I transferred the order to a
friend who just *had* to have one. He paid me the deposit I had paid
the Leica dealer and paid the balance to the dealer.

The infra-red problem began to be noticed just after I escaped from
the deal. Had I known about the infra-red problem I would have run a
mile. You have to use UV/IR "hot mirror" filters to avoid it, and
those filters bring with them a lot of problems, especially severe
colour fringing with wide angle lenses. If you shoot RAW (actually
DNG) you can remove the fringing with careful post-processing, but
this takes time.

And Tony Polson wrote this back in August:

The vast majority of M8 users will never encounter or notice the IR
problem. Only if you cannot tolerate the possibility of ever seeing a
magenta cast on a man-made fabric do you need to use the filters at
all times.

* Disappointing in-camera JPEG engine delivers sub-par results
(jagged artifacts, moire, lower resolution) especially when you see
what's available from RAW

Don't be ridiculous. No-one who is serious about their photography
would ever use JPEG. This isn't a snapshot camera!

* Really need to shoot RAW to realize the potential of the camera

See above.

* Rangefinder disadvantages: you don't look through the lens, no
depth of field preview, framelines indicate frame size not viewfinder
view, no auto focus, virtually no telephoto lenses (beyond ~135 mm, 90
mm a sensible maximum), accessory viewfinder required for certain lenses

Surprise! The M8 is a rangefinder camera. If you don't like
rangefinder cameras, don't even bother to comment.

If people want to buy a rangefinder camera, they will find the Leica M
series is the best available. If people want a new digital
rangefinder camera, the M8 is the only game in town. If they want a
DSLR, they should buy a DSLR.

The M8 is not a DSLR and cannot be criticised simply because it isn't
one. It just isn't. Period.

* Slightly dull (low saturation) color response by default (easy to
adjust)

So it doesn't give a vivid, over-saturated image like a low-end
consumer DSLR? Now there's a surprise. Not.

* Poor automatic white balance in artificial light

Set white balance manually. Shoot RAW.

* No communciation contact between the lens and body means aperture
isn't recorded

Do you want it to wipe your ass for you too? Or clean up your drool?

* You need to have your M lenses six-bit coded for the optimum
image quality

No, you darn well don't! You can set up corrections for each lens in
image editing software.

* You really have to want it, $4800 for the body and $1600 for a 50
mm lens

Just don't buy it. Like other anti-Leica trolls, you quite clearly
don't understand it, and you can't afford it.

Life is *so* tough.

And none of those were on Tony's list of current criticisms, which he
enumerated in this thread. That he now says he'd get the epson before
the M8 only indicates he's changed his mind, and at that, apparently
because of the reliability issues, which he evidently wasn't fully
aware of at the time of the post you quote.

You only do damage to your own reputation with bull**** like this.

--
www.mattclara.com

"John Smith" wrote in message
...
I'm considering buying a Leica M8. I owned an M6 a few years ago and fell
in love with the typical Leica qualities, i.e. compact size, light weight,
phenomenal optics, silent shutter, etc.

But a dear friend of mine who belongs to a "Leica List" on the net said
he's been hearing horror stories from a number of Leica fans (and we know
how biased they are TOWARDS their Leicas) about the M8. And these are
apparently problems beyond the IR and banding problems so often discussed.

Has anyone heard similar issues about the reliability of the M8?

This has me worried enough to consider waiting until the M10 is
released....

Thanks,
John




Why not ask the many rangefinder enthusiasts at www.rangefinderforum.com ?
You might people there far more familiar with that camera than on this
forum, which is dedicated to dSLRs, etc.

Patrick

On Dec 11, 3:44 am, "G.T." wrote:

Just don't buy it. Like other anti-Leica trolls, you quite clearly
don't understand it, and you can't afford it.

Life is *so* tough.

Tony wrote an informed, intelligent, well-reasoned and balanced post
based on his own experiences.

The fact that you disagree with him does not make him a troll.