Using Lithium Cells in Battery Grips

Hi all,

On Friday I got my 20D, complete with Battery Grip. I'm aware of the probs
with this model of grip, but I've checked my serial number against what's
listed on the website - and mine is OK.

Having said that, I charged up 6 NiMH double A cells - threw them in the
grip - and had the camera power off before I even managed to take my first
shot! Hmmm.

Having a read of the instructions they say that ...

1. Camera may report that NiMH are not fully charged when used in the
camera - this I can understand, although I would still have expected them to
work.

2. The thing that's REALLY confused me is that it specifically says that
Lithium cells can't be used - can anyone think of a reason why? - Since they
are the same voltage as alkalines - and are supposed to last up to 7 times
longer, can anyone think why they can't be used? I wouldn't have thought
that the camera would have been able to tell the difference.

Many thanks,

CC

The thing that's REALLY confused me is that it specifically says that
Lithium cells can't be used - can anyone think of a reason why? - Since they
are the same voltage as alkalines

NO RECHARGEABLE are truly the same voltage output as alkaline!!! RFor
example, NiMH rechargeables are typically outputting 1.33v full
charge, and stay at about that level as they discharge until they drop
to about 1.2v. NiCads start about 1.25v and decline to 1.2v.
Alkalines start at a nominal 1.5v (actual measurement 1.57v not under
load) and progressively decline thru their lifetimes until discharged.
The battery check circuitry can be set to expect a certain voltage, and
will report when batteries output less than that voltage.
I have a universal remote for my TV/stereo that does not like NiCad
batteries, always reporting low batteries even with a freshly charged
set, but it will take NiMH just fine. The Canon may expect a voltage
higher than 8v starting voltage.

As for 'why not Lithim', the different battery chemistries have
internal resistance values and current flow rates. It could be that
lithium just has something that is not compatible with the Canon even
though the starting voltage is fine.

--wilt

FWIW

I have a P&S Fuji that I've used for 3 years prior to going SLR. I started
using NiMH rechargeables but I kept runing out of charge way too soon. For
the past two years I've just gone with ordinary alkaline AAs. I buy a brick
from Dick Smiths and a set of 4 last me hell of a lot longer than a charged
set of NiMH.

Yes in the long run it's more expensive but it sure beats the frustration of
running out of charge at a critical moment.

Toa

In article , Toa wrote:
FWIW

I have a P&S Fuji that I've used for 3 years prior to going SLR. I started
using NiMH rechargeables but I kept runing out of charge way too soon. For
the past two years I've just gone with ordinary alkaline AAs. I buy a brick
from Dick Smiths and a set of 4 last me hell of a lot longer than a charged
set of NiMH.

Which NiMH cells are you using? They vary in capacity, with the
least expensive ones having the lowest capacity. (Generally, you can
tell by the weight of the cells before ever looking at the rating.)

The worst of what I have are labeled under the brand "Energizer"
(without having an "Eveready" marking, and weigh only 0.5 Oz.
These have no marking for the Amp-hour rating. My wife picked
them up at the grocery store, and I have not even dared to use
these. :-)

The first of the CAMEDIA ones weigh in at 0.9 Oz, with a rating
of 1450 mAh.

Next are the more recent CAMEDIA ones, at 0.9 Oz, and 1600 mAh
rating.

Then, I have some with the brand "Digital", at 1.0 Oz with 1800
mAh rating.

And -- I have seen (but do not yet own) a set with 2000+ mAh
ratings. In part, this is because the D70 uses its own Li-ION
battery style, as does my wife's current Nikon P&S camera, and
what I have are quite sufficient for running the SB-800 (and the
older SB-28).

Yes in the long run it's more expensive but it sure beats the frustration of
running out of charge at a critical moment.

That's what a complete change or two of rechargeables is for. :-)

Enjoy,
DoN.
--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Hi,

Thanks for all that - only prob is I'm talking about Lithium, not
Lithium-Iron (The lithium cells are 1.5 volt and are virtually disigned for
digital cameras).

The other interesting thing is that the camera battery packs are 7.2 volt
(ie 6x 1.2v internal cells) - this should be the save voltage as 6x AA
"individual" cells (of even higher capacity).

Cheers,

Colin

"wilt" wrote in message
oups.com...
The thing that's REALLY confused me is that it specifically says that
Lithium cells can't be used - can anyone think of a reason why? - Since
they
are the same voltage as alkalines

NO RECHARGEABLE are truly the same voltage output as alkaline!!! RFor
example, NiMH rechargeables are typically outputting 1.33v full
charge, and stay at about that level as they discharge until they drop
to about 1.2v. NiCads start about 1.25v and decline to 1.2v.
Alkalines start at a nominal 1.5v (actual measurement 1.57v not under
load) and progressively decline thru their lifetimes until discharged.
The battery check circuitry can be set to expect a certain voltage, and
will report when batteries output less than that voltage.
I have a universal remote for my TV/stereo that does not like NiCad
batteries, always reporting low batteries even with a freshly charged
set, but it will take NiMH just fine. The Canon may expect a voltage
higher than 8v starting voltage.

As for 'why not Lithim', the different battery chemistries have
internal resistance values and current flow rates. It could be that
lithium just has something that is not compatible with the Canon even
though the starting voltage is fine.

--wilt

This is the weird thing about the Canon grip. According to the instructions
.... if I use 2x Canon LiOn battery packs I can expect to get up to 2000
shots - if I use 6xAA alkalines I can expect to get 60 (as in SIXTY) shots -
they point out that the alkalines are for emergency use only. Apart from the
fact that the alkalines won't be able to supply as high a peak current (in
what is essentially a fairly low current device), I don't understand why the
figures should be so low.


"Toa" wrote in message
...
FWIW

I have a P&S Fuji that I've used for 3 years prior to going SLR. I
started
using NiMH rechargeables but I kept runing out of charge way too soon.
For
the past two years I've just gone with ordinary alkaline AAs. I buy a
brick
from Dick Smiths and a set of 4 last me hell of a lot longer than a
charged
set of NiMH.

Yes in the long run it's more expensive but it sure beats the frustration
of
running out of charge at a critical moment.

Toa

Thanks for that - I've come across this before too. Although, Canon have
released a new series of the grip that gets over the faults they've been
having - it also includes a redesigned AA holder that looks to me like it
would fix the problem - but I will have to test more.


"Ed Ruf" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 00:23:33 +1200, in rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
"Cockpit Colin" wrote:

On Friday I got my 20D, complete with Battery Grip. I'm aware of the
probs
with this model of grip, but I've checked my serial number against what's
listed on the website - and mine is OK.

Having said that, I charged up 6 NiMH double A cells - threw them in the
grip - and had the camera power off before I even managed to take my
first
shot! Hmmm.

Can't speak to the lithium question, but I may have an answer for the use
of NiMh in battery grips. Today's high capacity NiMh appear not to conform
to the IEEE dimensional specifications for AA cells. Particularly the
height of the + terminal above the top of the cell is not adhered to. This
can cause poor or no contact.

I had this problem with the Nikon grip for the CP-5700 and it has been
found in the CP-8700 grip as well. You can see my documentation of the
issue at:
http://edwardgruf.com/Digital_Photog...5700_nits.html
----------
Ed Ruf Lifetime AMA# 344007 )
See images taken with my CP-990/5700 & D70 at
http://edwardgruf.com/Digital_Photog...ral/index.html

only prob is I'm talking about Lithium, not
Lithium-Iron (The lithium cells are 1.5 volt and are virtually disigned for
digital cameras).

I wasn't thinking lithium ion, either...I know they do not exist in the
AA form factor. The lithium non-rechargeable batteries still have
different chemical characteristics that translate into ***different
electrical characteristics even at the same voltage*** as alkaline. I
have a Bronica ETRSi medium format system and you can use alkaline or
silver oxide, but NOT lithuim, according to the manufacturer!!! FWIW

--Wilt

This is the weird thing about the Canon grip. According to the instructions
... if I use 2x Canon LiOn battery packs I can expect to get up to 2000
shots - if I use 6xAA alkalines I can expect to get 60 (as in SIXTY) shots -

Don't forget that 'lithium' and 'lithium ion' are two very different
beasts...with 'lithium' in common in both, but a completely different
chemistry.

Which NiMH cells are you using? They vary in capacity, with the
least expensive ones having the lowest capacity. (Generally, you can
tell by the weight of the cells before ever looking at the rating.)

They're not here (I'm at work) but I've tried differing brands of differeing
rates. Some at 1200, 1600 and 1800.

Then, I have some with the brand "Digital", at 1.0 Oz with 1800
mAh rating.

Yup, Digital is one of the brands I've tried.

That's what a complete change or two of rechargeables is for. :-)

Yup, I always have a spare set on hand.

--
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