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Just a question



 
 
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  #11  
Old September 11th 18, 08:24 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
Neil[_9_]
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Posts: 357
Default Just a question

On 9/11/2018 2:53 PM, Tony Cooper wrote:
On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 14:06:38 -0400, Neil
wrote:

On 9/11/2018 11:52 AM, Tony Cooper wrote:
On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 10:48:07 -0400, nospam
wrote:

In article , Neil
wrote:


What's more important to you? The final result, or the accomplishment
of having to hone your skills to get to that final result?

I suspect that depends on the one using the product. Those whose main
requirement is productivity will appreciate the automation. Those who
are primarily artists may find the automation to be an obstruction
because it may take longer to execute their work as they intend.

there is no obstruction. those who want to use the new features can do
so and those who prefer to use older methods can continue doing what
they've been doing. the choice is theirs. some might use a mix of both.

Well, it didn't take long for nospam to find something to argue about
and to take the opportunity to state the bloody obvious.

It seems that it is impossible in this group to find something to
discuss that nospam can't find a reason to join in contentiously
without making any contribution of interest.

It appeared to me that your question was based on using the new tools,
not avoiding their use and working as though one didn't "upgrade" to a
newer version of the app.


No, not really. It was just a question about if people feel the
"quick and easy" use of the Photoshop tools takes away the
satisfaction of putting in the time and practice to become proficient
with the tools. Does it remove the challenge of acquiring a skill
set?

Of course I know that the user can choose whether or not to go the
"quick and easy" route. That needn't be stated. But, some may feel
it detracts from the pride one feels in mastering tools in order to
get the desired result.

I understood that aspect of using new tools. However, there is another
aspect, which is that automated tools presume a particular result. My
reply differentiated between those who want that result and therefore
may appreciate the increased productivity and those who use tools to
achieve a variant result using the same parameters but outside the
automated tool's presumed result. The ability to do the latter is a
direct benefit of the skills that your question posed!

--
best regards,

Neil
  #12  
Old September 11th 18, 08:33 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
dale
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Posts: 83
Default Just a question

On 9/11/2018 2:53 PM, Tony Cooper wrote:
On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 14:06:38 -0400, Neil
wrote:

On 9/11/2018 11:52 AM, Tony Cooper wrote:
On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 10:48:07 -0400, nospam
wrote:

In article , Neil
wrote:


What's more important to you? The final result, or the accomplishment
of having to hone your skills to get to that final result?

I suspect that depends on the one using the product. Those whose main
requirement is productivity will appreciate the automation. Those who
are primarily artists may find the automation to be an obstruction
because it may take longer to execute their work as they intend.

there is no obstruction. those who want to use the new features can do
so and those who prefer to use older methods can continue doing what
they've been doing. the choice is theirs. some might use a mix of both.

Well, it didn't take long for nospam to find something to argue about
and to take the opportunity to state the bloody obvious.

It seems that it is impossible in this group to find something to
discuss that nospam can't find a reason to join in contentiously
without making any contribution of interest.

It appeared to me that your question was based on using the new tools,
not avoiding their use and working as though one didn't "upgrade" to a
newer version of the app.


No, not really. It was just a question about if people feel the
"quick and easy" use of the Photoshop tools takes away the
satisfaction of putting in the time and practice to become proficient
with the tools. Does it remove the challenge of acquiring a skill
set?

Of course I know that the user can choose whether or not to go the
"quick and easy" route. That needn't be stated. But, some may feel
it detracts from the pride one feels in mastering tools in order to
get the desired result.




There is a starting point either way ...

--
dale - https://www.dalekelly.org/
Not a professional opinion unless specified.
  #13  
Old September 11th 18, 11:28 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
Davoud
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Posts: 584
Default Just a question

Tony Cooper:
Adobe has provided a short video on the later-to-be released
improvements on Content Aware Fill in Photoshop.

It's available to watch at:

https://petapixel.com/2018/09/10/pho...o-get-its-own-
powerful-workspace/?mc_cid=6ddb1e16cf&mc_eid=b307a66a15

or http://tinyurl.com/ybv32cks

The question is "Do improvements like this take away the skill aspect
and enjoyment of Photoshop for you?"

In other words, is it going to less rewarding to you to improve your
skills in using Photoshop if the improvements mean no skill, or
considerably less skill, is required to do what now takes skill?

Oh, the final product will be done faster and better with the
improvements, but the challenge of learning how to use the present
available tools is lessened.

What's more important to you? The final result, or the accomplishment
of having to hone your skills to get to that final result?


Easy one! If it works well and saves me time, then I'm all for it. What
matter is the result, not the process. This applies to any number of
filters, utilities, and routines built into Photoshop and Lightroom.
Focus-stacking for macrophotography comes to mind.

I don't feel at all dirty after producing a photo such as this one
https://www.flickr.com/photos/primeval/34885963754 from multiple
exposures using Photoshop. Or this one, where content-aware fill played
a role https://www.flickr.com/photos/primeval/43149416492.

--
I agree with almost everything that you have said and almost everything that
you will say in your entire life.

usenet *at* davidillig dawt cawm
  #14  
Old September 12th 18, 12:10 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
Eric Stevens
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Posts: 12,321
Default Just a question

On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 00:18:59 -0400, Tony Cooper
wrote:

This is intended as just a question, and not a position taken on
either side.

Adobe has provided a short video on the later-to-be released
improvements on Content Aware Fill in Photoshop.

It's available to watch at:
https://petapixel.com/2018/09/10/pho...eid=b307a66a15

or http://tinyurl.com/ybv32cks

The question is "Do improvements like this take away the skill aspect
and enjoyment of Photoshop for you?"


It does take away some skill but it also removes a lot of tedious
work. It also seems to add capabilities which are inconceivable for
practical purposes with the present software. To answer your question,
I don't think the process matters nearly as much as the additional
enjoyment and pleasure arising the images I will be able to create.

In other words, is it going to less rewarding to you to improve your
skills in using Photoshop if the improvements mean no skill, or
considerably less skill, is required to do what now takes skill?


As I see it, the same amount of skill will take me further.

Oh, the final product will be done faster and better with the
improvements, but the challenge of learning how to use the present
available tools is lessened.

What's more important to you? The final result, or the accomplishment
of having to hone your skills to get to that final result?


The result: without a doubt.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens
  #15  
Old September 12th 18, 12:25 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
dale
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 83
Default Just a question

On 9/11/2018 12:18 AM, Tony Cooper wrote:
This is intended as just a question, and not a position taken on
either side.

Adobe has provided a short video on the later-to-be released
improvements on Content Aware Fill in Photoshop.

It's available to watch at:
https://petapixel.com/2018/09/10/pho...eid=b307a66a15

or http://tinyurl.com/ybv32cks

The question is "Do improvements like this take away the skill aspect
and enjoyment of Photoshop for you?"

In other words, is it going to less rewarding to you to improve your
skills in using Photoshop if the improvements mean no skill, or
considerably less skill, is required to do what now takes skill?

Oh, the final product will be done faster and better with the
improvements, but the challenge of learning how to use the present
available tools is lessened.

What's more important to you? The final result, or the accomplishment
of having to hone your skills to get to that final result?




with any starting point you can always add your art, I prefer a choice
of starting points ..., if I had to choose I would start with "accurate"
.... with an abstract profile you turn "accurate" and "look and feel"
into your own starting points

--
dale - https://www.dalekelly.org/
Not a professional opinion unless specified.
  #16  
Old September 12th 18, 12:34 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
nospam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 21,778
Default Just a question

In article , Davoud
wrote:

What's more important to you? The final result, or the accomplishment
of having to hone your skills to get to that final result?


Easy one! If it works well and saves me time, then I'm all for it. What
matter is the result, not the process. This applies to any number of
filters, utilities, and routines built into Photoshop and Lightroom.
Focus-stacking for macrophotography comes to mind.


exactly.

and the old methods are still there. they were not removed.
  #17  
Old September 12th 18, 12:15 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
Sandman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,429
Default Just a question

In article , Tony Cooper wrote:

This is intended as just a question, and not a position taken on
either side.


Adobe has provided a short video on the later-to-be released
improvements on Content Aware Fill in Photoshop.


It's available to watch at:
https://petapixel.com/2018/09/10/pho...ll-to-get-its-

own-powerful-workspace/?mc_cid=6ddb1e16cf&mc_eid=b307a66a15

or http://tinyurl.com/ybv32cks


The question is "Do improvements like this take away the skill
aspect and enjoyment of Photoshop for you?"


In other words, is it going to less rewarding to you to improve your
skills in using Photoshop if the improvements mean no skill, or
considerably less skill, is required to do what now takes skill?


Oh, the final product will be done faster and better with the
improvements, but the challenge of learning how to use the present
available tools is lessened.


What's more important to you? The final result, or the
accomplishment of having to hone your skills to get to that final
result?


Skills can be become outdated, and no longer needed. Sometimes a skill can be
used in different ways and still serve a purpose even when something replaces
the major usage of the skill.

Lots of skills have fallen away from photography, developing film, light
metering, manual focusing just to name a few. With new tools that replace or
do these things for you and with a better end result, the skill is obsolete.

So the question is - if the end result is better and more importantly; faster
and more efficient, is there any value to the skill in itself, or was it just
needed because there was no better way to do it before?

--
Sandman
  #18  
Old September 12th 18, 12:53 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
Sandman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,429
Default Just a question

In article , Tony Cooper wrote:

nospam:
In article , Neil


Andreas Skitsnack:
What's more important to you? The final result, or the
accomplishment of having to hone your skills to get to
that final result?

Neil:
I suspect that depends on the one using the product. Those
whose main requirement is productivity will appreciate the
automation. Those who are primarily artists may find the
automation to be an obstruction because it may take longer
to execute their work as they intend.

nospam:
there is no obstruction. those who want to use the new
features can do so and those who prefer to use older methods
can continue doing what they've been doing. the choice is
theirs. some might use a mix of both.

Andreas Skitsnack:
Well, it didn't take long for nospam to find something to argue
about and to take the opportunity to state the bloody obvious.


It seems that it is impossible in this group to find something
to discuss that nospam can't find a reason to join in
contentiously without making any contribution of interest.


Neil:
It appeared to me that your question was based on using the new
tools, not avoiding their use and working as though one didn't
"upgrade" to a newer version of the app.


No, not really. It was just a question about if people feel the
"quick and easy" use of the Photoshop tools takes away the
satisfaction of putting in the time and practice to become
proficient with the tools. Does it remove the challenge of acquiring
a skill set?


"quick and easy" certainly is preferred by professional photoshop editors, no
doubt. Skills may look nice on a CV, but quick and good results look better
for the employer.

In my line of work, I always look for ways to make things easier for me, not
necessarily acquiring new skills for things that can be done automatically. In
the end that benefits both me and my customers.

--
Sandman
  #19  
Old September 12th 18, 02:32 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
Tony Cooper[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 15
Default Just a question

On 12 Sep 2018 11:15:24 GMT, Sandman wrote:

In article , Tony Cooper wrote:

This is intended as just a question, and not a position taken on
either side.


Adobe has provided a short video on the later-to-be released
improvements on Content Aware Fill in Photoshop.


It's available to watch at:
https://petapixel.com/2018/09/10/pho...ll-to-get-its-

own-powerful-workspace/?mc_cid=6ddb1e16cf&mc_eid=b307a66a15

or http://tinyurl.com/ybv32cks


The question is "Do improvements like this take away the skill
aspect and enjoyment of Photoshop for you?"


In other words, is it going to less rewarding to you to improve your
skills in using Photoshop if the improvements mean no skill, or
considerably less skill, is required to do what now takes skill?


Oh, the final product will be done faster and better with the
improvements, but the challenge of learning how to use the present
available tools is lessened.


What's more important to you? The final result, or the
accomplishment of having to hone your skills to get to that final
result?


Skills can be become outdated, and no longer needed. Sometimes a skill can be
used in different ways and still serve a purpose even when something replaces
the major usage of the skill.

Lots of skills have fallen away from photography, developing film, light
metering, manual focusing just to name a few. With new tools that replace or
do these things for you and with a better end result, the skill is obsolete.


That - developing film - is getting close to the heart of my question.
There are film shooters around who develop their own film. That means
of producing a photograph is obsolete when you use the "outmoded"
definition of "obsolete".

Then why do they do it? The finished product is not going to
available quicker, it's not going to be a better finished product, and
it requires chemicals and equipment.

The answer has to be "pride of accomplishment" or something of that
nature. The quick and easy route of digital photography doesn't
appeal to them. They like working with the skills they've developed
(!) over the years.

So the question is - if the end result is better and more importantly; faster
and more efficient, is there any value to the skill in itself, or was it just
needed because there was no better way to do it before?


Yeah, I'd say there is a "value" to some obsolete skills. Personal
satisfaction counts as a value in my mind.

--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
  #20  
Old September 12th 18, 06:53 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
Neil[_9_]
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Posts: 357
Default Just a question

On 9/12/2018 7:15 AM, Sandman wrote:

Skills can be become outdated, and no longer needed. Sometimes a skill can be
used in different ways and still serve a purpose even when something replaces
the major usage of the skill.

Lots of skills have fallen away from photography, developing film, light
metering, manual focusing just to name a few. With new tools that replace or
do these things for you and with a better end result, the skill is obsolete.

Developing film hasn't fallen away from those who still shoot film.
Perhaps many users find the results of auto-focus to be superior to
their ability to manual focus, but that isn't universal. In fact, except
for simple scenes, manual focus can be faster and more accurate. The
same can be said for metering; how one wants the scene to appear is
subjective, and one with the requisite skills can often make the
decisions to accomplish that without chimping or taking a hundred shots.

So the question is - if the end result is better and more importantly; faster
and more efficient, is there any value to the skill in itself, or was it just
needed because there was no better way to do it before?
"Better" is subjective; did one get the result they were after or not?

Faster and more efficient depends on the skills of the users. If one
takes 100 shots of a scene, at some point any time saved shooting will
be more than offset during editing, and even then they may not get what
they were after.

These are just a few reasons that I see distinct differences between the
kinds of users in terms of technology "replacing" skills.

--
best regards,

Neil
 




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