Shooting birds with a Zoom lens

Hi all!

I recently bought a Canon EF 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6 L IS USM fot my 5D Mark II.
I shoot RAW.

I was told by a photgrapher that it's best to use M or Av and not Tv.

I was told to set my camera to M and ISO to auto. This way, I could choose
the f stop as well as the speed and the camera would choose the proper ISO.
Since the Mark II has pretty clean ISO to at leasrt 3200, this would do the
trick. However, re-reading the book, I find that on M, the max ISO is 400. I
looked into the preferences, but could not find a way around.

At this juncture, when I'm not sure what ISO to use when birds fly to and
from an illuminated background (against a blue sky) to a darker one (against
trees in a creek), I shoot on Av and auto ISO. It works well, but I wonder
if there's another way of approaching this.

Thanks for any enlightment.

Marcel

In article , celcius
wrote:

Hi all!

I recently bought a Canon EF 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6 L IS USM fot my 5D Mark II.
I shoot RAW.

I was told by a photgrapher that it's best to use M or Av and not Tv.

I was told to set my camera to M and ISO to auto. This way, I could choose
the f stop as well as the speed and the camera would choose the proper ISO.
Since the Mark II has pretty clean ISO to at leasrt 3200, this would do the
trick. However, re-reading the book, I find that on M, the max ISO is 400. I
looked into the preferences, but could not find a way around.

At this juncture, when I'm not sure what ISO to use when birds fly to and
from an illuminated background (against a blue sky) to a darker one (against
trees in a creek), I shoot on Av and auto ISO. It works well, but I wonder
if there's another way of approaching this.

Thanks for any enlightment.
Not too sure this qualifies as enlightenment:-
Heh! It is harder than it looks!
I borrowed a 2x extender for my 135 lens and set off on holiday to a
place coincidentally famous for seabirds. I don't care much for birds
but I tried for the technical challenge and failed miserably.
Here's the best of my downright amateur experience:-
If the snivellers are flying about, forget autofocus. Set the ISO up to
at least 3200 and stop down to f8 or littler in Aperture priority.
Flick to manual focus and wind the focus ring to your best guess at
hyperfocal distance. Set the body to burst mode and fire off as many
pics as you can whenever an interesting heap of birds fly past. Your
5Dii comes into its own with its glut of pixels. You can crop in post
to about 1/4 the area you really shot, and still get shots that will
print OK at A4 size. Except they are pictures of boring bloody birds.

Where we went was full of sad people in green drabby clothes with
telescopes and tripods trampling the natives' turnip patches to death
in search of something or other that people like them had seen only 5
times in the last 50 years.

--
To de-mung my e-mail address:- fsnospam$elliott$$
PGP Fingerprint: 1A96 3CF7 637F 896B C810 E199 7E5C A9E4 8E59 E248

On 09-12-07 13:59 , celcius wrote:
Hi all!

I recently bought a Canon EF 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6 L IS USM fot my 5D Mark
II. I shoot RAW.

I was told by a photgrapher that it's best to use M or Av and not Tv.

I was told to set my camera to M and ISO to auto. This way, I could
choose the f stop as well as the speed and the camera would choose the
proper ISO. Since the Mark II has pretty clean ISO to at leasrt 3200,
this would do the trick. However, re-reading the book, I find that on M,
the max ISO is 400. I looked into the preferences, but could not find a
way around.

At this juncture, when I'm not sure what ISO to use when birds fly to
and from an illuminated background (against a blue sky) to a darker one
(against trees in a creek), I shoot on Av and auto ISO. It works well,
but I wonder if there's another way of approaching this.

For birds I would think Tv would be more important as at least most of
the time you will want to freeze motion by selecting a minimum shutter
speed regardless of ISO. For your lens, shooting birds, I'd think about
1/200 to 1/100 or faster (at 400mm) with IS engaged.

(This really depends on how large you intend to print, the larger the
print, the faster the shutter speed required).

Bird shooting is a metering challenge, which is why I would shoot them
manual exposure and according to the light falling on them rather than
by reflective metering off of them or their overall environment. Meter
a nearby midtone object (rough bark on a maple tree is close) _in the
same light_ and if the birds are dark/black, open up another 1/3 to 1/2
of a stop to bring out feather detail.

Take full advantage of the high ISO quality of your camera to shoot with
a slightly closed down aperture (f8 ish) and the fastest shutter speed
you can manage. Say ISO 800 - 1600, f/8 and let the shutter speed fall
where it may. For ISO 800 f/8 you should get 1/3200 in sunlight and
1/800 under thin overcast ... shooting the shadow side of the bird would
be about 1/200 in sunlight.

Note that people have been making great bird shots at ISO 100 or less
for a long time albeit with faster lenses and by pushing the film a stop
on occasion. With your camera, the "band" is just much fatter and
easier to hit.

Look at Bret's (and other's) bird photos on pbase as well. The EXIF
info should give you a lot of guidance.

In article ,
Alan Browne wrote:

For birds I would think Tv would be more important as at least most of
the time you will want to freeze motion by selecting a minimum shutter
speed regardless of ISO. For your lens, shooting birds, I'd think about
1/200 to 1/100 or faster (at 400mm) with IS engaged.

There's so many different situations, it's impossible to give a single
answer.

If you're shooting birds on the wing, then yes, you probably want a fast
shutter speed to freeze motion. On the other hand, most of my favorite
bird shots are of birds which are standing still, and I'm usually more
concerned about shooting with a large aperture to throw the background out
of focus.

On my last outing, I ended up shooting an egret (bright white) and a crow
(jet black). On both of them, I made the same mistake; I should have used
spot metering to get the bird properly exposed and ignore the background
lighting. I had to to a lot of messing around in post-processing to pull
up the detail in the feathers, but the results were not anywhere near as
good as they would have been if I had gotten it right in the camera.

On 09-12-07 15:20 , Roy Smith wrote:
In article8sadnUNB9dBNxYDWnZ2dnUVZ_t2dnZ2d@giganews. com,
Alan wrote:

For birds I would think Tv would be more important as at least most of
the time you will want to freeze motion by selecting a minimum shutter
speed regardless of ISO. For your lens, shooting birds, I'd think about
1/200 to 1/100 or faster (at 400mm) with IS engaged.

There's so many different situations, it's impossible to give a single
answer.

If you're shooting birds on the wing, then yes, you probably want a fast
shutter speed to freeze motion. On the other hand, most of my favorite
bird shots are of birds which are standing still, and I'm usually more
concerned about shooting with a large aperture to throw the background out
of focus.

On my last outing, I ended up shooting an egret (bright white) and a crow
(jet black). On both of them, I made the same mistake; I should have used
spot metering to get the bird properly exposed and ignore the background
lighting. I had to to a lot of messing around in post-processing to pull
up the detail in the feathers, but the results were not anywhere near as
good as they would have been if I had gotten it right in the camera.

That's why I point out that exposure should be set for the light (with a
small pull for dark feather detail) rather than based on shot to shot
metering of the birds and environment, esp. where the tones are so
different. You spend more time thinking about exp. comp. than catching
the birds.

"Elliott Roper" wrote in message
...
In article , celcius
wrote:

Hi all!

I recently bought a Canon EF 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6 L IS USM fot my 5D Mark
II.
I shoot RAW.

I was told by a photgrapher that it's best to use M or Av and not Tv.

I was told to set my camera to M and ISO to auto. This way, I could
choose
the f stop as well as the speed and the camera would choose the proper
ISO.
Since the Mark II has pretty clean ISO to at leasrt 3200, this would do
the
trick. However, re-reading the book, I find that on M, the max ISO is
400. I
looked into the preferences, but could not find a way around.

At this juncture, when I'm not sure what ISO to use when birds fly to and
from an illuminated background (against a blue sky) to a darker one
(against
trees in a creek), I shoot on Av and auto ISO. It works well, but I
wonder
if there's another way of approaching this.

Thanks for any enlightment.
Not too sure this qualifies as enlightenment:-
Heh! It is harder than it looks!
I borrowed a 2x extender for my 135 lens and set off on holiday to a
place coincidentally famous for seabirds. I don't care much for birds
but I tried for the technical challenge and failed miserably.
Here's the best of my downright amateur experience:-
If the snivellers are flying about, forget autofocus. Set the ISO up to
at least 3200 and stop down to f8 or littler in Aperture priority.
Flick to manual focus and wind the focus ring to your best guess at
hyperfocal distance. Set the body to burst mode and fire off as many
pics as you can whenever an interesting heap of birds fly past. Your
5Dii comes into its own with its glut of pixels. You can crop in post
to about 1/4 the area you really shot, and still get shots that will
print OK at A4 size. Except they are pictures of boring bloody birds.

Where we went was full of sad people in green drabby clothes with
telescopes and tripods trampling the natives' turnip patches to death
in search of something or other that people like them had seen only 5
times in the last 50 years.

Thanks Elliott!
That's an idea. Pretty close to mine at Av with the exception of the 3400
ISO and the manual focus. Quite challenging if I might say so.
Marcel

"Alan Browne" wrote in message
...
On 09-12-07 13:59 , celcius wrote:
Hi all!

I recently bought a Canon EF 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6 L IS USM fot my 5D Mark
II. I shoot RAW.

I was told by a photgrapher that it's best to use M or Av and not Tv.

I was told to set my camera to M and ISO to auto. This way, I could
choose the f stop as well as the speed and the camera would choose the
proper ISO. Since the Mark II has pretty clean ISO to at leasrt 3200,
this would do the trick. However, re-reading the book, I find that on M,
the max ISO is 400. I looked into the preferences, but could not find a
way around.

At this juncture, when I'm not sure what ISO to use when birds fly to
and from an illuminated background (against a blue sky) to a darker one
(against trees in a creek), I shoot on Av and auto ISO. It works well,
but I wonder if there's another way of approaching this.

For birds I would think Tv would be more important as at least most of the
time you will want to freeze motion by selecting a minimum shutter speed
regardless of ISO. For your lens, shooting birds, I'd think about 1/200
to 1/100 or faster (at 400mm) with IS engaged.

(This really depends on how large you intend to print, the larger the
print, the faster the shutter speed required).

Bird shooting is a metering challenge, which is why I would shoot them
manual exposure and according to the light falling on them rather than by
reflective metering off of them or their overall environment. Meter a
nearby midtone object (rough bark on a maple tree is close) _in the same
light_ and if the birds are dark/black, open up another 1/3 to 1/2 of a
stop to bring out feather detail.

Take full advantage of the high ISO quality of your camera to shoot with a
slightly closed down aperture (f8 ish) and the fastest shutter speed you
can manage. Say ISO 800 - 1600, f/8 and let the shutter speed fall where
it may. For ISO 800 f/8 you should get 1/3200 in sunlight and 1/800 under
thin overcast ... shooting the shadow side of the bird would be about
1/200 in sunlight.

I don't understand this. It seems here you're in Av where you set F8 and
automatic ISO or is it otherwise? Perhaps you set to f8, and ISO to a numer,
say 3200 and let the speed fall where it will?


Note that people have been making great bird shots at ISO 100 or less for
a long time albeit with faster lenses and by pushing the film a stop on
occasion. With your camera, the "band" is just much fatter and easier to
hit.

Look at Bret's (and other's) bird photos on pbase as well. The EXIF info
should give you a lot of guidance.

Thanks Alan, but you must be fast and quite knowledgeable to make all these
decisions when a bunch of birds start flying:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/cosmar/...7622823690341/
Somehow, in my mind, I have to set it up right before the fact.
OK. If I understansd you correctly, I set the camera to Tv. Then, I set the
speed to say, 250th sec.
Ok I'll go to Pbase and see.
Marcel

In article , celcius
wrote:

"Elliott Roper" wrote in message
...
snip
Thanks Elliott!
That's an idea. Pretty close to mine at Av with the exception of the 3400
ISO and the manual focus. Quite challenging if I might say so.
Marcel
5Dii is magic at high ISO. For most outdoor shots the noise is almost
invisible at ISO 1600, and 3200 is fine if it helps you get the motion
stopped and the focus right. Who says good gear is no substitute for
talent? I need all the help I can get!!

--
To de-mung my e-mail address:- fsnospam$elliott$$
PGP Fingerprint: 1A96 3CF7 637F 896B C810 E199 7E5C A9E4 8E59 E248

On 09-12-07 17:49 , celcius wrote:
"Alan Browne" wrote in message
...
On 09-12-07 13:59 , celcius wrote:
Hi all!

I recently bought a Canon EF 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6 L IS USM fot my 5D Mark
II. I shoot RAW.

I was told by a photgrapher that it's best to use M or Av and not Tv.

I was told to set my camera to M and ISO to auto. This way, I could
choose the f stop as well as the speed and the camera would choose the
proper ISO. Since the Mark II has pretty clean ISO to at leasrt 3200,
this would do the trick. However, re-reading the book, I find that on M,
the max ISO is 400. I looked into the preferences, but could not find a
way around.

At this juncture, when I'm not sure what ISO to use when birds fly to
and from an illuminated background (against a blue sky) to a darker one
(against trees in a creek), I shoot on Av and auto ISO. It works well,
but I wonder if there's another way of approaching this.

For birds I would think Tv would be more important as at least most of
the time you will want to freeze motion by selecting a minimum shutter
speed regardless of ISO. For your lens, shooting birds, I'd think
about 1/200 to 1/100 or faster (at 400mm) with IS engaged.

(This really depends on how large you intend to print, the larger the
print, the faster the shutter speed required).

Bird shooting is a metering challenge, which is why I would shoot them
manual exposure and according to the light falling on them rather than
by reflective metering off of them or their overall environment. Meter
a nearby midtone object (rough bark on a maple tree is close) _in the
same light_ and if the birds are dark/black, open up another 1/3 to
1/2 of a stop to bring out feather detail.

Take full advantage of the high ISO quality of your camera to shoot
with a slightly closed down aperture (f8 ish) and the fastest shutter
speed you can manage. Say ISO 800 - 1600, f/8 and let the shutter
speed fall where it may. For ISO 800 f/8 you should get 1/3200 in
sunlight and 1/800 under thin overcast ... shooting the shadow side of
the bird would be about 1/200 in sunlight.

I don't understand this. It seems here you're in Av where you set F8 and
automatic ISO or is it otherwise? Perhaps you set to f8, and ISO to a
numer, say 3200 and let the speed fall where it will?

That was my first stance (for motion control, Tv should be your mode),
but how I would shoot anything outdoor is always based on the light
_falling on the subject_ not the light reflected off of it. That's why
a midtone reference is used - not the subject.

(You could also meter the snow in the same light with the needle @ 2.0
to 2.3 or so - experiment away).



Note that people have been making great bird shots at ISO 100 or less
for a long time albeit with faster lenses and by pushing the film a
stop on occasion. With your camera, the "band" is just much fatter and
easier to hit.

Look at Bret's (and other's) bird photos on pbase as well. The EXIF
info should give you a lot of guidance.

Thanks Alan, but you must be fast and quite knowledgeable to make all
these decisions when a bunch of birds start flying:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/cosmar/...7622823690341/
Somehow, in my mind, I have to set it up right before the fact.

Yes!

OK. If I understansd you correctly, I set the camera to Tv. Then, I set
the speed to say, 250th sec.
Ok I'll go to Pbase and see.
Marcel

Just meter something neutral grey in the same light as the birds
manually. That should do it. Maybe 1/3 or so over if the birds are dark.

Make the decisions before the birds fly. The light doesn't change.

The values above are baseline "sunny-16" derived and any photographer
should be able to do that in their head (or on at least on their fingers
- stops up/down trades (reciprocity)).

"Alan Browne" wrote in message
...
On 09-12-07 13:59 , celcius wrote:
Hi all!

I recently bought a Canon EF 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6 L IS USM fot my 5D Mark
II. I shoot RAW.

I was told by a photgrapher that it's best to use M or Av and not Tv.

I was told to set my camera to M and ISO to auto. This way, I could
choose the f stop as well as the speed and the camera would choose the
proper ISO. Since the Mark II has pretty clean ISO to at leasrt 3200,
this would do the trick. However, re-reading the book, I find that on M,
the max ISO is 400. I looked into the preferences, but could not find a
way around.

At this juncture, when I'm not sure what ISO to use when birds fly to
and from an illuminated background (against a blue sky) to a darker one
(against trees in a creek), I shoot on Av and auto ISO. It works well,
but I wonder if there's another way of approaching this.

For birds I would think Tv would be more important as at least most of the
time you will want to freeze motion by selecting a minimum shutter speed
regardless of ISO. For your lens, shooting birds, I'd think about 1/200
to 1/100 or faster (at 400mm) with IS engaged.

(This really depends on how large you intend to print, the larger the
print, the faster the shutter speed required).

Bird shooting is a metering challenge, which is why I would shoot them
manual exposure and according to the light falling on them rather than by
reflective metering off of them or their overall environment. Meter a
nearby midtone object (rough bark on a maple tree is close) _in the same
light_ and if the birds are dark/black, open up another 1/3 to 1/2 of a
stop to bring out feather detail.

Take full advantage of the high ISO quality of your camera to shoot with a
slightly closed down aperture (f8 ish) and the fastest shutter speed you
can manage. Say ISO 800 - 1600, f/8 and let the shutter speed fall where
it may. For ISO 800 f/8 you should get 1/3200 in sunlight and 1/800 under
thin overcast ... shooting the shadow side of the bird would be about
1/200 in sunlight.

Note that people have been making great bird shots at ISO 100 or less for
a long time albeit with faster lenses and by pushing the film a stop on
occasion. With your camera, the "band" is just much fatter and easier to
hit.

Look at Bret's (and other's) bird photos on pbase as well. The EXIF info
should give you a lot of guidance.

I looked at Pbase.
There are many outstanding photos of birds.
However, the exif doesn't say whether hese were shot on Av, Tv, or M.
A great many phots have Exifs that are blank.
I've hit a wall.
Marcel