Greetings, plus some questions (long)

Hi, group!

I have some darkroom-related questions for which I seek answers. First,
though, some background.

Photography is a hobby of mine (I'm an advanced amateur), and until fairly
recently, was heavily slanted toward slides. Now, it's swung the other way
to B&W photography, but this was chiefly out of practicality: to use up the
remaining film stock.

Back in my college days, in the late 1980s/early 1990s, I took a darkroom
photography course in which we learned to develop B&W film and print it. (My
parents once talked about building a darkroom in the basement of the house
they'd then bought, in the early 1970s, though nothing came of it.)
Interestingly, I still have most of my developing equipment I bought for the
course, except for maybe the thermometer...which is likely still at my
mother's house.

Anyway, I recently dropped off a roll ofT-Max 400 at the local camera store
for processing, and the fellow working there wondered if they had that
developer. While they didn't have it in stock, his wondering planted the
seed of my developing my own film (no printing because I live in a
one-bedroom apartment, and there is no separate space for a darkroom) at
home. After all, I reasoned, I had an introduction, and I also have the
tools.

So I looked at B&H's website for the developer, stop bath and fixer, and
found all three by Kodak. (My reasoning is that for all practical purposes,
I'm "just getting started," so I'll stick with the film manufacturer's
recommendations as a starting point.) I also found them at another area
camera shop owned by the first one.

So, with that out of the way, here are my questions:

(1) Just how significantly are the chemicals, once mixed, affected by
temperature fluctuations? My apartment, because its windows face south,
tends to warm up during the day, and cool down appreciably as night falls.
I'm talking about the chemicals' storage in a liquid state, prior to use.

(2) Once mixed, would they benefit from storage in a refrigerator bought for
that purpose (a small model, big enough to hold three gallon-size jugs of
chemistry)? Surely keeping them cold, or cool, would be better in the long
term because they're not subjected to wide temperature swings. (One camera
shop I've patronized sells empty dark-brown containers for mixed chems, and
I would use those.)

(3) As I indicated, because I am, for all practical purposes, "just starting
out," so I'd stick with Kodak's development chemistry to keep things simple.
Does anyone have any "favorites" among these, any tips they'd like to share,
etc.? While I'm at it, what are the times for the stop bath and fixer?

(4) I see Kodak offers an "indicator stop bath." What does the "indicator"
part mean?

(5) Kodak's stop bath (catalog number 1462829) shows as 28% acetic acid,
which is vinegar. This is about 5 1/2 times stronger than the white
distilled vinegar found in supermarkets, so could I use that, provided I
adjust the times accordingly?

That's all for now; I'm sure I'll probably think of others in the meantime.

TIA

Dieter Zakas

Dieter Zakas wrote:

snip

Anyway, I recently dropped off a roll ofT-Max 400 at the local camera store
for processing, and the fellow working there wondered if they had that
developer.

T-max, like any other film, can be developed in any number
of developers with excellant results. When you say "had that
developer" you don't say what developer. Any lab or minilab
that does b&w can process Tmax...

While they didn't have it in stock, his wondering planted the
seed of my developing my own film (no printing because I live in a
one-bedroom apartment, and there is no separate space for a darkroom) at
home. After all, I reasoned, I had an introduction, and I also have the
tools.

So I looked at B&H's website for the developer, stop bath and fixer, and
found all three by Kodak. (My reasoning is that for all practical purposes,
I'm "just getting started," so I'll stick with the film manufacturer's
recommendations as a starting point.) I also found them at another area
camera shop owned by the first one.

So, with that out of the way, here are my questions:

(1) Just how significantly are the chemicals, once mixed, affected by
temperature fluctuations? My apartment, because its windows face south,
tends to warm up during the day, and cool down appreciably as night falls.
I'm talking about the chemicals' storage in a liquid state, prior to use.

Film processing temperature is critical. Storage temperature
less so but the cooler the better. When mixing developer, mix
only what you need and use immediately. Packaged chemicals or
concentrate liquids will keep for a couple of years at room
temperatures. Temperature consistency for all mixed processing
solutions is important. Standard processing temp is between
68 and 75 degrees F.

(2) Once mixed,

What are you talking about? Film developer, fixer, stop bath? Temp
should not affect the latter two (within reason.) Developer tends
to oxidize quickly when mixed so again you only mix what you use
_immediately_.

would they benefit from storage in a refrigerator bought for
that purpose (a small model, big enough to hold three gallon-size jugs of
chemistry)? Surely keeping them cold, or cool, would be better in the long
term because they're not subjected to wide temperature swings. (One camera
shop I've patronized sells empty dark-brown containers for mixed chems, and
I would use those.)

(3) As I indicated, because I am, for all practical purposes, "just starting
out," so I'd stick with Kodak's development chemistry to keep things simple.
Does anyone have any "favorites" among these, any tips they'd like to share,
etc.? While I'm at it, what are the times for the stop bath and fixer?

Times are stated on the packaging. Stop 1 minute. Fix T-max in
Rapid fix for 5-6 minutes. Developer times vary with the developer
and contrast desired and probably best to follow the instructions
on the package.

(4) I see Kodak offers an "indicator stop bath." What does the "indicator"
part mean?

It turns purple when exhausted.

(5) Kodak's stop bath (catalog number 1462829) shows as 28% acetic acid,
which is vinegar.

Vinegar is 5% acidity.

This is about 5 1/2 times stronger than the white
distilled vinegar found in supermarkets, so could I use that, provided I
adjust the times accordingly?

One could use distilled vinegar. For 28%, dilute it, again following
the package instructions.

That's all for now; I'm sure I'll probably think of others in the meantime.

TIA

Dieter Zakas

In article , Dieter Zakas wrote:
(1) Just how significantly are the chemicals, once mixed, affected by
temperature fluctuations? My apartment, because its windows face south,
tends to warm up during the day, and cool down appreciably as night falls.
I'm talking about the chemicals' storage in a liquid state, prior to use.

How much are you talking about? 5 degrees F, 30 degrees F. Assuming that your
apartment is reasonably heated there won't be a problem. If you turn off
the heat during the day and the apartment goes down to 50F you will have
a problem if you turn the heat on in the evening and bring it up to 70F.



(2) Once mixed, would they benefit from storage in a refrigerator bought for
that purpose (a small model, big enough to hold three gallon-size jugs of
chemistry)? Surely keeping them cold, or cool, would be better in the long
term because they're not subjected to wide temperature swings. (One camera
shop I've patronized sells empty dark-brown containers for mixed chems, and
I would use those.)

Not really 68F (20c) is the best storage temperature. Avoid the dark brown
plastic containers. Use glass ones with good stopers or screw on lids.
Keeping them in the dark is more important than the color of the bottles, but
make sure they cannot be confused with food or drink.


(3) As I indicated, because I am, for all practical purposes, "just starting
out," so I'd stick with Kodak's development chemistry to keep things simple.
Does anyone have any "favorites" among these, any tips they'd like to share,
etc.? While I'm at it, what are the times for the stop bath and fixer?

It depends upon which fixer you use, and how you dilute it. Kodak's chemistry
may not be right for you, look at what else is available, I prefer liquid
chemicals which I dilute before use and throw away.

(5) Kodak's stop bath (catalog number 1462829) shows as 28% acetic acid,
which is vinegar. This is about 5 1/2 times stronger than the white
distilled vinegar found in supermarkets, so could I use that, provided I
adjust the times accordingly?

Yes, but the vinegar would be expensive. Note that glacial (99%) acetic acid
freezes around 60F, so you want to dilute it to 28% right away, or just buy
the 28%. Ilford uses a different acid (I think it is citric) in it's stop
bath and does not have the vinegar smell.

The most important thing is never move film from a solution to a warmer
one. That will cause the film to produce odd markings, I forget the name of.

One easy way to do it is to fill a gallon jug with 75F water. Use it to make
up the developer from conentrate. Start development, wash out the mixing
cylinder with hot water, and use more water from the jug for the stop bath.

Again wash out the cylinder with hot water, and use more water from the jug
to make the fixer (although fixer will last almost forever in a tightly
closed glass bottle).

Fill the tank with water from the jug and agiatate gently for a minute.
Empty and repeat. Rinse film in hypo clearing or another wash agent.
Wash film for 5 minutes in gently flowing cold tap water.

Drain tank refill from from tap and add a few drops of photo-flow.
Empty tank, remove film from reel and dry.

This method is releatively expensive as you don't get repeat useage of
chemistry, but it is consitent and works well with small amounts of film.

Hint, if you do it this way, the stop bath can be reused for paper and
the fixer diluted with equal parts of water and also used for paper.

If you want to develop more than one roll of film in a week, consider
buying a multi reel tank and doing them all at once. Note that some
developers need a minumum ammount per roll of film, especialy at high
dilutions.

As for developers, Rodinal is a good start for low speed (under 200)
film. It lasts forever in a tightly closed bottle away from light
and cold will help it last if you are planing on leaving some to your
grandchildren :-) You use it at 1:50 or 1:100 dilution, so a small bottle
goes a long way.

I've always been a fan of Edwal FG-7, which produces good negatives from
almost anything, is used at 1:15 dilution and works from about 60f to 90f
with a simple change in time. Unfortuantely it is no longer available in
Israel. :-(

Geoff.



--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, C.T.O. GW&T Ltd., Jerusalem Israel

IL Voice: 972-544-608-069 IL Fax: 972-2-648-1443 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838

Dieter Zakas wrote:

(1) Just how significantly are the chemicals, once mixed, affected by
temperature fluctuations? My apartment, because its windows face south,
tends to warm up during the day, and cool down appreciably as night falls.
I'm talking about the chemicals' storage in a liquid state, prior to use.

Within reason, it's not a problem. Cold is worse than hot for most
chemicals, but as long as the temperature stays in a range between about
60 F and 120 F there shouldn't be any problem with any common chemicals.

(2) Once mixed, would they benefit from storage in a refrigerator bought for
that purpose (a small model, big enough to hold three gallon-size jugs of
chemistry)? Surely keeping them cold, or cool, would be better in the long
term because they're not subjected to wide temperature swings. (One camera
shop I've patronized sells empty dark-brown containers for mixed chems, and
I would use those.)

It's generally not recommended to refrigerate photo chemicals because it
can cause precipitation of stuff that should be dissolved. However, if
you have a dedicated fridge that can be adjusted to, say, 60 F, it would
be a fine place to store the chemicals -- with the proviso that it takes
an hour or more for the bottles to warm to room temperature even from 60 F.

(3) As I indicated, because I am, for all practical purposes, "just starting
out," so I'd stick with Kodak's development chemistry to keep things simple.
Does anyone have any "favorites" among these, any tips they'd like to share,
etc.? While I'm at it, what are the times for the stop bath and fixer?

I like HC-110 developer, Indicator Stop Bath, and Ilford Rapid Fixer
(but there's no reason Kodak's rapid fixer product wouldn't work as
well; I have Ilford because it was a convenient size and decent price
when I shopped).

(4) I see Kodak offers an "indicator stop bath." What does the "indicator"
part mean?

The indicator stop bath contains an "indicator" dye that changes from
yellow, when the stop bath is fresh, to a blue-green color when the stop
bath is exhausted and loses its acidity. This isn't necessary, but it's
convenient; it's reassuring to *know* your stop bath is good, but water
makes a perfectly fine stop bath as long as you're not dealing with 3.5
minute developer times.

(5) Kodak's stop bath (catalog number 1462829) shows as 28% acetic acid,
which is vinegar. This is about 5 1/2 times stronger than the white
distilled vinegar found in supermarkets, so could I use that, provided I
adjust the times accordingly?

Yes, you can buy white vinegar (5% acidity is standard) and dilute it
1:1 with water to make a perfectly fine stop bath, but Kodak Indicator
Stop Bath is actually cheaper than $1.50 per gallon for vinegar -- that
is, you get more gallons of working strength stop bath for your dollar
with the Kodak product than with the cheapest white vinegar on the
market, and Kodak includes the indicator dye to let you know when to
replace the stop bath.

--
The challenge to the photographer is to command the medium, to use
whatever current equipment and technology furthers his creative
objectives, without sacrificing the ability to make his own decisions.
-- Ansel Adams

Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer http://silent1.home.netcom.com

Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
and don't expect them to be perfect.

In article ,
(Geoffrey S. Mendelson) wrote:

The most important thing is never move film from a solution to a warmer
one. That will cause the film to produce odd markings, I forget the name of.

Reticulate :-)
--
LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918

in article , Geoffrey S. Mendelson at
wrote on 10/29/04 3:36:

In article , Dieter Zakas wrote:
(1) Just how significantly are the chemicals, once mixed, affected by
temperature fluctuations? My apartment, because its windows face south,
tends to warm up during the day, and cool down appreciably as night falls.
I'm talking about the chemicals' storage in a liquid state, prior to use.

How much are you talking about? 5 degrees F, 30 degrees F. Assuming that your
apartment is reasonably heated there won't be a problem. If you turn off
the heat during the day and the apartment goes down to 50F you will have
a problem if you turn the heat on in the evening and bring it up to 70F.

I've seen as much as 30 deg. F, especially during the spring and fall.
During the summer, when I'm out running errands, I tend to leave the a/c on
a low setting to maintain the coolness of the apartment.

(2) Once mixed, would they benefit from storage in a refrigerator bought for
that purpose (a small model, big enough to hold three gallon-size jugs of
chemistry)? Surely keeping them cold, or cool, would be better in the long
term because they're not subjected to wide temperature swings. (One camera
shop I've patronized sells empty dark-brown containers for mixed chems, and
I would use those.)

Not really 68F (20c) is the best storage temperature. Avoid the dark brown
plastic containers. Use glass ones with good stopers or screw on lids.
Keeping them in the dark is more important than the color of the bottles, but
make sure they cannot be confused with food or drink.


(3) As I indicated, because I am, for all practical purposes, "just starting
out," so I'd stick with Kodak's development chemistry to keep things simple.
Does anyone have any "favorites" among these, any tips they'd like to share,
etc.? While I'm at it, what are the times for the stop bath and fixer?

It depends upon which fixer you use, and how you dilute it. Kodak's chemistry
may not be right for you, look at what else is available, I prefer liquid
chemicals which I dilute before use and throw away.

The Kodak chemistry I cited is liquid concentrate for the stop bath and
developer, and powder fixer.

(5) Kodak's stop bath (catalog number 1462829) shows as 28% acetic acid,
which is vinegar. This is about 5 1/2 times stronger than the white
distilled vinegar found in supermarkets, so could I use that, provided I
adjust the times accordingly?

Yes, but the vinegar would be expensive. Note that glacial (99%) acetic acid
freezes around 60F, so you want to dilute it to 28% right away, or just buy
the 28%. Ilford uses a different acid (I think it is citric) in it's stop
bath and does not have the vinegar smell.

By definition, the stop bath was cited as 28% percent acetic acid - the same
stuff in regular vinegar, albeit a much-higher concentration - and I derived
my calculation from that.

Citiric acid in the stop bath? Nothng like negs with that "lemon fresh"
scent! :-)

IIRC, vinegar, especially white distilled, is relatively cheap when bought
by the gallon.

The most important thing is never move film from a solution to a warmer
one. That will cause the film to produce odd markings, I forget the name of.

One easy way to do it is to fill a gallon jug with 75F water. Use it to make
up the developer from conentrate. Start development, wash out the mixing
cylinder with hot water, and use more water from the jug for the stop bath.

Again wash out the cylinder with hot water, and use more water from the jug
to make the fixer (although fixer will last almost forever in a tightly
closed glass bottle).

Fill the tank with water from the jug and agiatate gently for a minute.
Empty and repeat. Rinse film in hypo clearing or another wash agent.
Wash film for 5 minutes in gently flowing cold tap water.

Drain tank refill from from tap and add a few drops of photo-flow.
Empty tank, remove film from reel and dry.

This method is releatively expensive as you don't get repeat useage of
chemistry, but it is consitent and works well with small amounts of film.

Hint, if you do it this way, the stop bath can be reused for paper and
the fixer diluted with equal parts of water and also used for paper.

If you want to develop more than one roll of film in a week, consider
buying a multi reel tank and doing them all at once. Note that some
developers need a minumum ammount per roll of film, especialy at high
dilutions.

As for developers, Rodinal is a good start for low speed (under 200)
film. It lasts forever in a tightly closed bottle away from light
and cold will help it last if you are planing on leaving some to your
grandchildren :-) You use it at 1:50 or 1:100 dilution, so a small bottle
goes a long way.

I've always been a fan of Edwal FG-7, which produces good negatives from
almost anything, is used at 1:15 dilution and works from about 60f to 90f
with a simple change in time. Unfortuantely it is no longer available in
Israel. :-(

Geoff.

Thanks for the suggestions, Geoff!

Dieter

"Dieter Zakas" wrote in message
...
Hi, group!

I have some darkroom-related questions for which I seek answers. First,
though, some background.
various snips

(1) Just how significantly are the chemicals, once mixed, affected by
temperature fluctuations? My apartment, because its windows face south,
tends to warm up during the day, and cool down appreciably as night falls.
I'm talking about the chemicals' storage in a liquid state, prior to use.

Developer likes no oxygen; most chems like cool storage. Got space on the
closet floor?

(2) Once mixed, would they benefit from storage in a refrigerator bought
for
that purpose (a small model, big enough to hold three gallon-size jugs of
chemistry)? Surely keeping them cold, or cool, would be better in the long
term because they're not subjected to wide temperature swings. (One camera
shop I've patronized sells empty dark-brown containers for mixed chems,
and
I would use those.)

Some chems will get cloudy in cold temps. Additionally, you would have to
warm them up for use.

(3) As I indicated, because I am, for all practical purposes, "just
starting
out," so I'd stick with Kodak's development chemistry to keep things
simple.
Does anyone have any "favorites" among these, any tips they'd like to
share,
etc.? While I'm at it, what are the times for the stop bath and fixer?

Dektol for prints, D-76 for film are the old standbys.

(4) I see Kodak offers an "indicator stop bath." What does the "indicator"
part mean?

As it gets contaminated with developer, it turns purple.

(5) Kodak's stop bath (catalog number 1462829) shows as 28% acetic acid,
which is vinegar. This is about 5 1/2 times stronger than the white
distilled vinegar found in supermarkets, so could I use that, provided I
adjust the times accordingly?

Strong stop bath can damage film. Stop bath is often optional; a water bath
can be substituted.

Ken Hart

"Dieter Zakas" wrote in message
...
Hi, group!

I have some darkroom-related questions for which I seek answers. First,
though, some background.
various snips

(1) Just how significantly are the chemicals, once mixed, affected by
temperature fluctuations? My apartment, because its windows face south,
tends to warm up during the day, and cool down appreciably as night falls.
I'm talking about the chemicals' storage in a liquid state, prior to use.

Developer likes no oxygen; most chems like cool storage. Got space on the
closet floor?

(2) Once mixed, would they benefit from storage in a refrigerator bought
for
that purpose (a small model, big enough to hold three gallon-size jugs of
chemistry)? Surely keeping them cold, or cool, would be better in the long
term because they're not subjected to wide temperature swings. (One camera
shop I've patronized sells empty dark-brown containers for mixed chems,
and
I would use those.)

Some chems will get cloudy in cold temps. Additionally, you would have to
warm them up for use.

(3) As I indicated, because I am, for all practical purposes, "just
starting
out," so I'd stick with Kodak's development chemistry to keep things
simple.
Does anyone have any "favorites" among these, any tips they'd like to
share,
etc.? While I'm at it, what are the times for the stop bath and fixer?

Dektol for prints, D-76 for film are the old standbys.

(4) I see Kodak offers an "indicator stop bath." What does the "indicator"
part mean?

As it gets contaminated with developer, it turns purple.

(5) Kodak's stop bath (catalog number 1462829) shows as 28% acetic acid,
which is vinegar. This is about 5 1/2 times stronger than the white
distilled vinegar found in supermarkets, so could I use that, provided I
adjust the times accordingly?

Strong stop bath can damage film. Stop bath is often optional; a water bath
can be substituted.

Ken Hart

(5) Kodak's stop bath (catalog number 1462829) shows as 28% acetic acid,
which is vinegar. This is about 5 1/2 times stronger than the white
distilled vinegar found in supermarkets, so could I use that, provided I
adjust the times accordingly?

1 part distilled vinegar to 4 parts water is about right. Stop bath is
merely a rinse, not a processing step, and the time does not matter as long
as it's sufficient to wash all the developer off the film. A plain water
rinse works fine -- you do not need acetic acid at all.

Tom Phillips wrote in message ...
Dieter Zakas wrote:

snip

(2) Once mixed,

What are you talking about? Film developer, fixer, stop bath? Temp
should not affect the latter two (within reason.) Developer tends
to oxidize quickly when mixed so again you only mix what you use
_immediately_.

This is why liquid concentrates are so handy.
You have no choice but to mix up the entire
package of powder, but even HC-110, thick and
gloppy though it is, is no problem with an oral
medicine syringe.

I use water stop bath on film, BTW. I tried an
acid stop and found the film sometimes reacted badly.
So I stopped. Paper seems to need the acid stop,
though...

When I told one of the local camera stores I wanted
to have a go at doing my own they pointed me to
Ilford HP5 film and Ilfosol S developer. If you
can mess *that* combination up, you are genuinely
talented.

This was only after reading an introductory book
on film processing/darkroom technique. The internet
is not a substitute for a solid grounding in the
basics.

Laura Halliday VE7LDH "Que les nuages soient notre
Grid: CN89mg pied a terre..."
ICBM: 49 16.05 N 122 56.92 W - Hospital/Shafte