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#11
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Questions about equivalents of audio/video and digital/analog.
On Aug 19, 6:08 pm, Jerry Avins wrote:
Radium wrote: This would be a start if I want to decrease the frequency of a video signal without decreasing the playback speed. Various compression schemes do that with varying degrees of resulting quality. I am talking about: 1. Decreasing the temporal frequency of the video signal without low- pass filtering or decreasing the playback speed - an example of which would be decreasing the rate at which a bird [in the movie] flaps its wings. Hummingbirds flap their wings too fast for the human eye to see. So the flap-rate of the wings could be decreased until the flapping is visible to the human eye - without decreasing the playback speed of the video. This decrease in flap-rate without slowing playback is visually-analogous to decreasing the pitch of a recorded sound without decreasing the playback speed. In this case, low-pass filter would involve attenuating rapidly-changing images while amplifying slowly-changing images -- I don't want this. 2. Decreasing the spatial frequency of the images in the video-signal without low-pass filtering the images or increasing their sizes. An example of this would be making the sharp areas of an image look duller without decreasing the "sharpness" setting [an example of low- pass filtering] on the monitor or increasing the size of the image. Normally, when the size of an image is decreased, its sharpness increases [it's like compressing a lower-frequency sound wave into a higher-frequency one]. Likewise, when the size of an image is increased, it looks duller [like stretching a higher-frequency sound wave into a lower-frequency one]. Low-pass filtering simply decreasing the sharpness of an image while increasing its dull characteristics -- which is what I don't want. #1 Decreases the rate at which objects in the video move without decreasing the video's playback speed or eliminating originally- rapidly-moving objects [such as the rapidly flapping wings] #2 Decreases makes a still image less sharp by stretching everything within the image without increasing the size of the image or eliminating sharp portions of the original image Both #1 and #2 are visual-equivalents of decreasing the pitch of a recorded audio signal without decreasing the audio's playback speed. |
#12
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Questions about equivalents of audio/video and digital/analog.
Radium wrote:
On Aug 19, 5:55 pm, Jerry Avins wrote: ... Ir color differentiation. Or both. Huh? Typo: Or color differentiation. Or both. The above device inputs the electrical signals generated by an attached microphone. These electric signals are AC and represent the sound in "electronic" form. Sound with a higher-frequency will generate a faster-alternating current than sound with a lower- frequency. A louder sound will generate an alternating-current with a bigger peak-to-peak wattage than a softer soft. All true. How to you record it with no moving parts? Other than the microphone [obviously], why does there need to be any moving parts? If a digital audio device can play audio back without any moving parts, why can't an analog audio device be designed to do the same? Describe a motion-free process of recording and playing back. Cutting grooves on a disk or magnetizing a moving tape both involve motion. The device below is *not* analog. It uses sampling so its digital: http://www.winbond-usa.com/mambo/content/view/36/140/ I'm curious to why there are no purely-analog devices which can record, store, and playback electric audio signals [AC currents at least 20 Hz but no more than 20,000 Hz] without having moving parts. Most of those voice recorders that use chips [i.e. solid-state] are digital. Analog voice recorders, OTOH, use cassettes [an example of "moving parts"]. It's this simple: nobody has invented a way. I doubt than anyone ever will. If you know how, communicate with me privately. With your idea and my ability to bring it to fruition, we'll both get rich. A motion-free method for printing text would also be a money maker. Jerry -- Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get. ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ |
#13
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Questions about equivalents of audio/video and digital/analog.
Radium wrote:
On Aug 19, 6:08 pm, Jerry Avins wrote: Radium wrote: This would be a start if I want to decrease the frequency of a video signal without decreasing the playback speed. Various compression schemes do that with varying degrees of resulting quality. I am talking about: 1. Decreasing the temporal frequency of the video signal without low- pass filtering or decreasing the playback speed - an example of which would be decreasing the rate at which a bird [in the movie] flaps its wings. Hummingbirds flap their wings too fast for the human eye to see. So the flap-rate of the wings could be decreased until the flapping is visible to the human eye - without decreasing the playback speed of the video. This decrease in flap-rate without slowing playback is visually-analogous to decreasing the pitch of a recorded sound without decreasing the playback speed. In this case, low-pass filter would involve attenuating rapidly-changing images while amplifying slowly-changing images -- I don't want this. You convinced me: there are stupid questions. Video and movies work by displaying a succession of still pictures close enough together in time and and position to give us the illusion of continuous motion. Think about how slow motion is accomplished with film photography. Speculate about how this might be done with analog video, and extrapolate to digitized video. 2. Decreasing the spatial frequency of the images in the video-signal without low-pass filtering the images or increasing their sizes. An example of this would be making the sharp areas of an image look duller without decreasing the "sharpness" setting [an example of low- pass filtering] on the monitor or increasing the size of the image. Normally, when the size of an image is decreased, its sharpness increases [it's like compressing a lower-frequency sound wave into a higher-frequency one]. Likewise, when the size of an image is increased, it looks duller [like stretching a higher-frequency sound wave into a lower-frequency one]. Low-pass filtering simply decreasing the sharpness of an image while increasing its dull characteristics -- which is what I don't want. That's a reasonable summary of what you don't want to do. What do you think you might do instead? #1 Decreases the rate at which objects in the video move without decreasing the video's playback speed or eliminating originally- rapidly-moving objects [such as the rapidly flapping wings] Something has to give. If the flapping of the wings is slowed, so is the motion of everything else. #2 Decreases makes a still image less sharp by stretching everything within the image without increasing the size of the image or eliminating sharp portions of the original image Huh? Both #1 and #2 are visual-equivalents of decreasing the pitch of a recorded audio signal without decreasing the audio's playback speed. Says who? You're reasoning from false analogy again. Jerry -- Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get. ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ |
#14
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Questions about equivalents of audio/video and digital/analog.
On Aug 19, 7:47 pm, Jerry Avins wrote:
Radium wrote: Other than the microphone [obviously], why does there need to be any moving parts? If a digital audio device can play audio back without any moving parts, why can't an analog audio device be designed to do the same? Describe a motion-free process of recording and playing back. Cutting grooves on a disk or magnetizing a moving tape both involve motion. The iPod is motion-free yet it's still able to record and playback. Those Nintendo Entertainment System cartridges were able to playback without any motion. The device below is *not* analog. It uses sampling so its digital: http://www.winbond-usa.com/mambo/content/view/36/140/ I'm curious to why there are no purely-analog devices which can record, store, and playback electric audio signals [AC currents at least 20 Hz but no more than 20,000 Hz] without having moving parts. Most of those voice recorders that use chips [i.e. solid-state] are digital. Analog voice recorders, OTOH, use cassettes [an example of "moving parts"]. It's this simple: nobody has invented a way. I doubt than anyone ever will. If you know how, communicate with me privately. I don't know how but I guessing that it involves the analog equivalent of Flash RAM [if re-writing is desired] or the analog equivalent of Masked-ROM [if permanent storage is desired]. |
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Questions about equivalents of audio/video and digital/analog.
Radium wrote:
On Aug 19, 7:47 pm, Jerry Avins wrote: Radium wrote: Other than the microphone [obviously], why does there need to be any moving parts? If a digital audio device can play audio back without Ah Radium trolling again i see!!!! |
#16
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Questions about equivalents of audio/video and digital/analog.
someone wrote:
There is no analog-equivalent of sample-rate? Then what the limits the highest frequency an analog audio device can encode? What determines the highest frequency signal an analog solid-state audio device can input without distortion? The basic physics of material objects leads to some limitations. At some frequency, a given force can no longer accelerate the mass of a given physical transducer or recording substance by an amount greater than does thermal noise (and other sources of noise, such as friction, wear, dust, magnetic particle size, film grain size, etc.) |
#17
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Questions about equivalents of audio/video and digital/analog.
Radium wrote:
In the case of digital video, we could treat each individual sample point location in the sampling grid (each pixel position in a frame) the same way as if it was a sample from an individual (mono) audio signal that continues on the same position in the next frame. For example, a 640×480 pixel video stream shot at 30 fps would be treated mathematically as if it consisted of 307200 parallel, individual mono audio streams [channels] at a 30 Hz sample rate. Where does bit- resolution enter the equation? What you are calling "bit resolution" is more commonly referred to as bits/sample, or in video bits/color or per component. It "enters into the equation" in all digital encoding systems by setting the dynamic range that can be encoded in that system, or, if you prefer, the "accuracy" with which each sample represents the value of the original signal at that point. The number of bits, along with the choice of the maximum value which can be encoded (i.e., what level "all ones" in the sample corresponds to) determines the value represented by the least-significant bit. Digital linear PCM audio has the following components: 1. Sample rate [44.1 KHz for CD audio] 2. Channels [2 in stereo, 1 in monaural] 3. Bit-resolution [16-bit for CD audio] PCM has nothing to do with it. Sample rate in audio = frame rate in video No. There is no real analog, in audio, to the frame rate in video, except to the extent that the frame rate IS a sample rate in terms of capturing one complete 2-D image at that point in time - IF that is the way the image capture device works (and not all work this way). More typically, the "sample rate" in audio would be thought of as corresponding to the pixel rate in video. Channel in audio = pixel in video Definitely not. A "pixel" in imaging is just what the name says - it is a "picture element," meaning one dimensionless point-sample of the original image, at a specific location within the image plane and, in the case of motion video, at a specific time. A pixel is the best analog you will find to a single sample in the case of digital audio. Bit-resolution in audio = ? in video Bits per sample is bits per sample, in either case. Is it true that unlike the-frequency-of-audio, the-frequency-of-video has two components -- temporal and spatial? A better way to say this is that you are concerned with both temporal and spatial frequencies in the case of motion video. (And, in the case of still images - as in digital still photography - spatial frequencies only.) II. Digital vs. Analog Sample-rate is a digital entity. Not really. While today most sampled systems are, in fact, "digital" in nature (meaning that the information is encoded in digital form), there is nothing in sampling theory which restricts its applicability to that realm. Sampled analog systems are certainly not very common today (unless you count certain forms of modulation as "sampling," and in fact there are some very close parallels there), but the theory remains the same no matter which form of encoding is used. In any event, you must sample the original signal at a rate equal to at least twice its bandwidth (actually, very slightly higher, to avoid a particular degenerate case which could occur at EXACTLY 2X the bandwidth) in order to preserve the information in the original and avoid "aliasing." Bob M. |
#18
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Questions about equivalents of audio/video and digital/analog.
Radium wrote:
On Aug 19, 7:47 pm, Jerry Avins wrote: Radium wrote: Other than the microphone [obviously], why does there need to be any moving parts? If a digital audio device can play audio back without any moving parts, why can't an analog audio device be designed to do the same? Describe a motion-free process of recording and playing back. Cutting grooves on a disk or magnetizing a moving tape both involve motion. The iPod is motion-free yet it's still able to record and playback. It does that digitally. Did you really not know that? Are you trolling after all? Those Nintendo Entertainment System cartridges were able to playback without any motion. It does that digitally. Did you really not know that? Are you trolling after all? The device below is *not* analog. It uses sampling so its digital: http://www.winbond-usa.com/mambo/content/view/36/140/ I'm curious to why there are no purely-analog devices which can record, store, and playback electric audio signals [AC currents at least 20 Hz but no more than 20,000 Hz] without having moving parts. Most of those voice recorders that use chips [i.e. solid-state] are digital. Analog voice recorders, OTOH, use cassettes [an example of "moving parts"]. It's this simple: nobody has invented a way. I doubt than anyone ever will. If you know how, communicate with me privately. I don't know how but I guessing that it involves the analog equivalent of Flash RAM [if re-writing is desired] or the analog equivalent of Masked-ROM [if permanent storage is desired]. What would you write into that "RAM"? There are no analog bits. The analog equivalent of a masked ROM is a phonograph record. Think first. Blather afterward, but show some sign of thought or you're not worth bothering with. Jerry -- Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get. ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ |
#19
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Questions about equivalents of audio/video and digital/analog.
Bob Myers wrote:
... you must sample the original signal at a rate equal to at least twice its bandwidth (actually, very slightly higher, to avoid a particular degenerate case which could occur at EXACTLY 2X the bandwidth) in order to preserve the information in the original and avoid "aliasing." Bob, The degenerate case is just a limit. Signals close to the band edge take a long time to be resolved. The time is of the order if 1/|f-F|, where F is the frequency of the nearer band edge. Just as it takes in the order of 100 seconds to resolve a frequency of .01 Hz, it takes the same time to resolve a frequency of Fs/2 - .01 Hz. When f = Fs/2, it just takes forever. The real works tends to be continuous. Jerry -- Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get. ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ |
#20
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Questions about equivalents of audio/video and digital/analog.
In article . com,
Radium wrote: I'm curious to why there are no purely-analog devices which can record, store, and playback electric audio signals [AC currents at least 20 Hz but no more than 20,000 Hz] without having moving parts. Most of those voice recorders that use chips [i.e. solid-state] are digital. Analog voice recorders, OTOH, use cassettes [an example of "moving parts"]. The fact that it's an AC (inherently-varying) signal being recorded, means that *something* has to move... if only some amount of electrical charge. If the electrons don't move, the output can't vary and all you have is a DC voltage. And, in fact, this concept of moving electrical charges is the basis for one type of analog signal storage and playback device which has no moving (mechanical) parts... the CCD, or Charge Coupled Device. It consists of a large number of charge storage devices (typically MOSFET transistors with dielectrically-isolated gates) hooked up as a sort of shift register or "bucket brigade". Each gate stores a charge which is proportional to the input signal present at a given moment in time. Several thousand times per second, a clock pulse causes each storage cell to generate an output voltage proportional to the charge in its storage gate, and then to "capture" onto its gate the signal being presented by the previous gate in the chain. In effect, the signal is propagated down the chain at a rate proportional to the clock rate. Why aren't these devices used more than they are? They're not very efficient, and they're noisy. Every time the charge is copied from one cell to the next, a bit of imprecision (noise) creeps in... so the fidelity isn't great. And, because the device has to be able to hold a very wide range of charges (since the charge is directly proportional to the signal level) the storage gates have to be fairly large. The net result is that an audio CCD is capable of storing a decent-quality signal for only a few tens or hundreds of milliseconds, from input to output. Another sort of a purely analog signal-storage device, with no moving parts other than the electrons which convey the signal, is a simple length of transmission line (with perhaps some amplifiers mid-way). Put a signal in at one end, get the same signal back out the other end some number of microseconds or milliseconds later. Once again, they're not terribly efficient and are prone to be noisy. For storage of large amounts of information, in a small space, with high fidelity, using digital storage techniques is much more efficient - largely because each storage cell must only store 2 different information states (0 and 1) rather than a large number of possible levels. -- Dave Platt AE6EO Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads! |
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