Colormanagement, double monitor profiling

Hi.

I know Color management in theory should be quite simple, but to
understand what happens in the OS may be another story, here is mine:

I have recently bought Spyder3 Studio, and has now a calibrated
monitor. The profile is installed in Vista, as the default profile.

For printing I use Fotoslate from ACDSee, which is color management
capable.
For browsing it's ACDSee Pro, again because of CM.
For editing Photoshop Elements also with CM.

In all applications the monitor profile from Spyder3 is configured as
the working profile. In Elements this is not possible, it uses the OS
default.

Now, after printing with my also brand new printer profile it's
possible to have a consistent color look over more paper media's
(using individual printer profiles). This is great, but the overall
impression is too warm.

I now think the reason is the monitor profiling. Why?

If I look at a sRGB picture in a non-color management browser: here
Opera, the picture is shown correct , there is only one profiling done
at the OS level, just as Bill want it.

Then I look at the picture through ACDSee Pro with the Spyder monitor
profile chosen as the monitor profile. The picture turns out more
yellow.
Repeat with Photoshop Elements, same result.

Se picture he

http://www.ilsoee.dk/monitorkal/Med.jpg

Now I change the profile in ACDSee Pro to sRGB and the picture is
like the one from Opera.
This is not possible in Elements.
To fool it, I now change the profile in Vista and set's the default to
sRGB. This means no change in the actual profiling in the OS, at least
not before reBooting .
But restarting Elements make it believe, so now the picture is shown
correct. Example he

http://www.ilsoee.dk/monitorkal/Uden.jpg


Well, not what I would call too clever.
This behavior is not documented anywhere I've looked.
I would believe its a bug in Elements, or am I wrong?
At least I'm now aware, that I have had a wrong color in my monitor
for years, because my old Lenovo monitor profile was much like the
Spyder's.

How is your CM flow?
Do you have the same problem?

And now I'm asking so much, how is the Spyder profile installed in the
OS? Does it change the LUT of the graphical Nvidia board?

Thank You for your interest.

BR
Ove
--

Landscapes, most from southern Denmark:
www.ilsoee.dk

"Ove Ilsoee" wrote in message
...
Hi.

I know Color management in theory should be quite simple, but to
understand what happens in the OS may be another story, here is mine:

I have recently bought Spyder3 Studio, and has now a calibrated
monitor. The profile is installed in Vista, as the default profile.

For printing I use Fotoslate from ACDSee, which is color management
capable.
For browsing it's ACDSee Pro, again because of CM.
For editing Photoshop Elements also with CM.

In all applications the monitor profile from Spyder3 is configured as
the working profile. In Elements this is not possible, it uses the OS
default.

Now, after printing with my also brand new printer profile it's
possible to have a consistent color look over more paper media's
(using individual printer profiles). This is great, but the overall
impression is too warm.

I now think the reason is the monitor profiling. Why?

If I look at a sRGB picture in a non-color management browser: here
Opera, the picture is shown correct , there is only one profiling done
at the OS level, just as Bill want it.

Then I look at the picture through ACDSee Pro with the Spyder monitor
profile chosen as the monitor profile. The picture turns out more
yellow.
Repeat with Photoshop Elements, same result.

Se picture he

http://www.ilsoee.dk/monitorkal/Med.jpg

Now I change the profile in ACDSee Pro to sRGB and the picture is
like the one from Opera.
This is not possible in Elements.
To fool it, I now change the profile in Vista and set's the default to
sRGB. This means no change in the actual profiling in the OS, at least
not before reBooting .
But restarting Elements make it believe, so now the picture is shown
correct. Example he

http://www.ilsoee.dk/monitorkal/Uden.jpg


Well, not what I would call too clever.
This behavior is not documented anywhere I've looked.
I would believe its a bug in Elements, or am I wrong?
At least I'm now aware, that I have had a wrong color in my monitor
for years, because my old Lenovo monitor profile was much like the
Spyder's.

How is your CM flow?
Do you have the same problem?

And now I'm asking so much, how is the Spyder profile installed in the
OS? Does it change the LUT of the graphical Nvidia board?

Thank You for your interest.

BR
Ove
--

Landscapes, most from southern Denmark:
www.ilsoee.dk


I am not quite sure exactly what you mean in your description of your
workflows, and your "testing".

I rather suspect that you might be using your Monitor Profile as your
Working Space Profile.

In the versions of Elements which I have looked at, the only way of
selecting Working Space Profile is by specifiying whether you are working
towards Print or Digital Display. For Print it allocates Adobe RGB
otherwise it allocates sRGB.

Have another read up on Colour Management and ensure that you are using the
appropriate Working Space Profiles.

Roy G

On Fri, 8 May 2009 10:24:01 +0100, "Roy G" wrote:


I am not quite sure exactly what you mean in your description of your
workflows, and your "testing".

I rather suspect that you might be using your Monitor Profile as your
Working Space Profile.

Hi Roy.

Here is a copy of help:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No Color Management Leaves your image untagged. This option uses your
monitor profile as the working space. It removes any embedded profiles
when opening images, and does not tag when saving.

Always Optimize Colors For Computer Screens Uses sRGB as the RGB
working space; the Grayscale working space is Gray Gamma 2.2.
Preserves embedded profiles, and assigns sRGB when opening untagged
files.

Always Optimize For Printing Uses Adobe RGB as the RGB working space;
the Grayscale working space is Dot Gain 20%. Preserves embedded
profiles and assigns Adobe RGB when opening untagged files.

Allow Me To Choose Lets you choose sRGB (the default) or Adobe RGB
when opening untagged files..
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If I chose "No Color Management", I will be using the monitor color
space. I have tried it right now, and the colors are then shown
correct as in Opera with no CM. The explanation for this I dont know,
but it's not an acceptable solution because I loose Adobe RGB.
When saving the picture, there is no profile attached, but it looks as
sRGB.


Normally I use "Always Optimize For Printing" so my workingspace is
Adobe RGB.

BR
Ove

--

Landskabsbilleder, mest fra Sønderjylland:
www.ilsoee.dk
------------------------------------------

"Ove Ilsoee" wrote in message
...
Hi.

I know Color management in theory should be quite simple, but to
understand what happens in the OS may be another story, here is mine:

I have recently bought Spyder3 Studio, and has now a calibrated
monitor. The profile is installed in Vista, as the default profile.

For printing I use Fotoslate from ACDSee, which is color management
capable.
For browsing it's ACDSee Pro, again because of CM.
For editing Photoshop Elements also with CM.

In all applications the monitor profile from Spyder3 is configured as
the working profile. In Elements this is not possible, it uses the OS
default.

Now, after printing with my also brand new printer profile it's
possible to have a consistent color look over more paper media's
(using individual printer profiles). This is great, but the overall
impression is too warm.

I now think the reason is the monitor profiling. Why?

If I look at a sRGB picture in a non-color management browser: here
Opera, the picture is shown correct , there is only one profiling done
at the OS level, just as Bill want it.

Then I look at the picture through ACDSee Pro with the Spyder monitor
profile chosen as the monitor profile. The picture turns out more
yellow.
Repeat with Photoshop Elements, same result.

Se picture he

http://www.ilsoee.dk/monitorkal/Med.jpg

Now I change the profile in ACDSee Pro to sRGB and the picture is
like the one from Opera.
This is not possible in Elements.
To fool it, I now change the profile in Vista and set's the default to
sRGB. This means no change in the actual profiling in the OS, at least
not before reBooting .
But restarting Elements make it believe, so now the picture is shown
correct. Example he

http://www.ilsoee.dk/monitorkal/Uden.jpg


Well, not what I would call too clever.
This behavior is not documented anywhere I've looked.
I would believe its a bug in Elements, or am I wrong?
At least I'm now aware, that I have had a wrong color in my monitor
for years, because my old Lenovo monitor profile was much like the
Spyder's.

How is your CM flow?
Do you have the same problem?

And now I'm asking so much, how is the Spyder profile installed in the
OS? Does it change the LUT of the graphical Nvidia board?

Thank You for your interest.

BR
Ove
--

Landscapes, most from southern Denmark:
www.ilsoee.dk

I am sorry, I have not been much help.

I don't use Vista or AcDC, so I cannot experiment, and I have heard there
are CM problems with Vista..

You say that changing the profile from A.RGB to sRGB in AcDc makes the
colours look like they do in Opera.

That should not happen.

When an image has its profile converted from one Working Space to another
within a colour managed program, the colours on the screen should stay the
same. Only the actual data is changed.

Because the screen is limited to sRGB, the program should do an "on the fly"
conversion for its display.

If an sRGB profiled copy and an A.RGB profiled copy of the same image are
seen,side by side, in a non C. M. program then you should be able to see a
difference. The A.RGB one will look dull and have a more limited range of
colours, Because in this case there were no "on the fly" conversions.

Roy G

Ove Ilsoee wrote:
Hi.

I know Color management in theory should be quite simple,


No!!
It's really complex, confusing & full of ways to go terribly wrong as
well as being darn near impossible given different lighting in the room,
viewing angle, etc. grin.



--
Paul Furman
www.edgehill.net
www.baynatives.com

all google groups messages filtered due to spam

On Fri, 08 May 2009 09:22:05 -0700, Paul Furman
wrote:

Ove Ilsoee wrote:
Hi.

I know Color management in theory should be quite simple,


No!!
It's really complex, confusing & full of ways to go terribly wrong as
well as being darn near impossible given different lighting in the room,
viewing angle, etc. grin.

Yes, I said in theory. When it comes to grasp it, that's another
story.

But I dont think the softwarecompanies does the job easier. I mean,
always a lot of talking about the theory, but no hard information
about the way their own software attacks the job. Perhaps thay are
also in a steep learning curve.

I somehow needs a flowchart showing the possible stages and what
happens here and there.
I hope to make one myself some day.
BR
Ove

--

Landskabsbilleder, mest fra Sønderjylland:
www.ilsoee.dk
------------------------------------------

Ove Ilsoee wrote:
Hi.

I know Color management in theory should be quite simple,

Then you know something I don't.


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-- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
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I recently purchased a Pantone huey monitor calibrator and then immediately
upgraded it the pro version (which is simply more advanced software). I use
this to calibrate my monitor. From Photoshop. I select the ICC profile for
my Epson 2200 printer and the paper being used. I then set up soft proofing
in Photoshop which allows me to see on screen how the image will be printed.
Usually it is a bit darker than I like so I adjust the brightness such that
in the soft proof view, the image appears as I wish. This has given me good
quality consistent prints the first time they are printed.

I don't know if you have the ability in Photoshop Elements to soft proof or
not.

One place to see a suggested workflow for printing from a calibrated monitor
using Photoshop is the user guide for the huey. It can be downloaded at

http://www.pantone.com/downloads/pro...OUserGuide.pdf

The printing part is toward the end at around page 34. The instructions are
for Photoshop CS2, so the details will be slightly different for other
versions.


"Ove Ilsoee" wrote in message
...
Hi.

I know Color management in theory should be quite simple, but to
understand what happens in the OS may be another story, here is mine:

I have recently bought Spyder3 Studio, and has now a calibrated
monitor. The profile is installed in Vista, as the default profile.

For printing I use Fotoslate from ACDSee, which is color management
capable.
For browsing it's ACDSee Pro, again because of CM.
For editing Photoshop Elements also with CM.

In all applications the monitor profile from Spyder3 is configured as
the working profile. In Elements this is not possible, it uses the OS
default.

Now, after printing with my also brand new printer profile it's
possible to have a consistent color look over more paper media's
(using individual printer profiles). This is great, but the overall
impression is too warm.

I now think the reason is the monitor profiling. Why?

If I look at a sRGB picture in a non-color management browser: here
Opera, the picture is shown correct , there is only one profiling done
at the OS level, just as Bill want it.

Then I look at the picture through ACDSee Pro with the Spyder monitor
profile chosen as the monitor profile. The picture turns out more
yellow.
Repeat with Photoshop Elements, same result.

Se picture he

http://www.ilsoee.dk/monitorkal/Med.jpg

Now I change the profile in ACDSee Pro to sRGB and the picture is
like the one from Opera.
This is not possible in Elements.
To fool it, I now change the profile in Vista and set's the default to
sRGB. This means no change in the actual profiling in the OS, at least
not before reBooting .
But restarting Elements make it believe, so now the picture is shown
correct. Example he

http://www.ilsoee.dk/monitorkal/Uden.jpg


Well, not what I would call too clever.
This behavior is not documented anywhere I've looked.
I would believe its a bug in Elements, or am I wrong?
At least I'm now aware, that I have had a wrong color in my monitor
for years, because my old Lenovo monitor profile was much like the
Spyder's.

How is your CM flow?
Do you have the same problem?

And now I'm asking so much, how is the Spyder profile installed in the
OS? Does it change the LUT of the graphical Nvidia board?

Thank You for your interest.

BR
Ove
--

Landscapes, most from southern Denmark:
www.ilsoee.dk

On Sat, 9 May 2009 17:46:53 -0400, "William LaMartin"
wrote:

I recently purchased a Pantone huey monitor calibrator and then immediately
upgraded it the pro version (which is simply more advanced software). I use
this to calibrate my monitor. From Photoshop. I select the ICC profile for
my Epson 2200 printer and the paper being used. I then set up soft proofing
in Photoshop which allows me to see on screen how the image will be printed.
Usually it is a bit darker than I like so I adjust the brightness such that
in the soft proof view, the image appears as I wish. This has given me good
quality consistent prints the first time they are printed.

I don't know if you have the ability in Photoshop Elements to soft proof or
not.

One place to see a suggested workflow for printing from a calibrated monitor
using Photoshop is the user guide for the huey. It can be downloaded at

http://www.pantone.com/downloads/pro...OUserGuide.pdf

The printing part is toward the end at around page 34. The instructions are
for Photoshop CS2, so the details will be slightly different for other
versions.


"Ove Ilsoee" wrote in message
.. .
Hi.

I know Color management in theory should be quite simple, but to
understand what happens in the OS may be another story, here is mine:

I have recently bought Spyder3 Studio, and has now a calibrated
monitor. The profile is installed in Vista, as the default profile.

For printing I use Fotoslate from ACDSee, which is color management
capable.
For browsing it's ACDSee Pro, again because of CM.
For editing Photoshop Elements also with CM.

In all applications the monitor profile from Spyder3 is configured as
the working profile. In Elements this is not possible, it uses the OS
default.

Now, after printing with my also brand new printer profile it's
possible to have a consistent color look over more paper media's
(using individual printer profiles). This is great, but the overall
impression is too warm.

I now think the reason is the monitor profiling. Why?

If I look at a sRGB picture in a non-color management browser: here
Opera, the picture is shown correct , there is only one profiling done
at the OS level, just as Bill want it.

Then I look at the picture through ACDSee Pro with the Spyder monitor
profile chosen as the monitor profile. The picture turns out more
yellow.
Repeat with Photoshop Elements, same result.

Se picture he

http://www.ilsoee.dk/monitorkal/Med.jpg

Now I change the profile in ACDSee Pro to sRGB and the picture is
like the one from Opera.
This is not possible in Elements.
To fool it, I now change the profile in Vista and set's the default to
sRGB. This means no change in the actual profiling in the OS, at least
not before reBooting .
But restarting Elements make it believe, so now the picture is shown
correct. Example he

http://www.ilsoee.dk/monitorkal/Uden.jpg


Well, not what I would call too clever.
This behavior is not documented anywhere I've looked.
I would believe its a bug in Elements, or am I wrong?
At least I'm now aware, that I have had a wrong color in my monitor
for years, because my old Lenovo monitor profile was much like the
Spyder's.

How is your CM flow?
Do you have the same problem?

And now I'm asking so much, how is the Spyder profile installed in the
OS? Does it change the LUT of the graphical Nvidia board?

Thank You for your interest.

BR
Ove
--

Landscapes, most from southern Denmark:
www.ilsoee.dk


Hi.

Thanks for the interest.

Latest update.
I have a wide gamut monitor and therefore the reason for my problems
is revealed he

http://social.answers.microsoft.com/...-263b5ae698d8/

This means, that after I have bought an expensive quality monitor and
hardware calibration equipment for it, I end up with a poorer result
than before, outside the CM capable programs.
Disappointing at least.

As far as I can interprete the link, Windows 7 will not resolve the
problem.

The calibration hardware from Spyder is OK. I'm not finished
experimenting, but it seems I have got a fine workflow through the
printer, also with different media, which was impossible before.

BR
Ove



--

Landskabsbilleder, mest fra Sønderjylland:
www.ilsoee.dk
------------------------------------------