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Is it really illegal to snap a picture of a clerk in a Post Office?



 
 
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  #51  
Old July 8th 18, 03:27 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
nospam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 24,165
Default Is it really illegal to snap a picture of a clerk in a Post Office?

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

When in public spaces where you are lawfully present you have the right to
photograph anything that is in plain view.
When you are on private property, the property owner may set rules about the
taking of photographs.


I seem to the question of your subject line was debated at length some
time ago and the conclusion that was eventually reached was that:

1. A Post Office is a space to which the public may have access but
it is not a 'public space' in the strict sense of that term.

2. The post office and its premises are the subject of acts and
regulations which define what should or should not be done.

3. Photographs may not be taken within a post office of the staff or
the premises without the permission of the post master.

I expect someone will correct me if I am wrong.


that might be true where you live but it isn't applicable to the usa,
where the post to which you are replying is referring.

for usa post offices:
https://about.usps.com/postal-bullet.../html/info_005.
html
Informal snapshots from handheld cameras for personal use may be
allowed at the postmasterąs discretion provided that there is no
disruption to Postal Service operations and that the pictures are
taken from areas accessible to the public. In these cases, no prior
permission is required from the Office of Rights and Permissions;
however, no lighting or scaffolding may be set up, and no picture can
depict any Postal Service employee, customer, security camera, or
cover of mail (i.e., the exterior of a mailpiece, which would show
customer name and address among other things). Postmasters may
restrict any and all photography if they determine that it is
disruptive or there are potential security concerns.
  #52  
Old July 9th 18, 03:06 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
Eric Stevens
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,611
Default Is it really illegal to snap a picture of a clerk in a Post Office?

On Sat, 07 Jul 2018 22:27:53 -0400, nospam
wrote:

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

When in public spaces where you are lawfully present you have the right to
photograph anything that is in plain view.
When you are on private property, the property owner may set rules about the
taking of photographs.


I seem to the question of your subject line was debated at length some
time ago and the conclusion that was eventually reached was that:

1. A Post Office is a space to which the public may have access but
it is not a 'public space' in the strict sense of that term.

2. The post office and its premises are the subject of acts and
regulations which define what should or should not be done.

3. Photographs may not be taken within a post office of the staff or
the premises without the permission of the post master.

I expect someone will correct me if I am wrong.


that might be true where you live but it isn't applicable to the usa,
where the post to which you are replying is referring.

for usa post offices:
https://about.usps.com/postal-bullet.../html/info_005.
html
Informal snapshots from handheld cameras for personal use may be
allowed at the postmasterÂąs discretion provided that there is no
disruption to Postal Service operations and that the pictures are
taken from areas accessible to the public. In these cases, no prior
permission is required from the Office of Rights and Permissions;
however, no lighting or scaffolding may be set up, and no picture can
depict any Postal Service employee, customer, security camera, or
cover of mail (i.e., the exterior of a mailpiece, which would show
customer name and address among other things). Postmasters may
restrict any and all photography if they determine that it is
disruptive or there are potential security concerns.


You have confirmed most of what I have written, particularly when you
wrote: "Informal snapshots from handheld cameras for personal use may
be allowed at the postmasterÂąs discretion ... Postmasters may restrict
any and all photography if they determine that it is disruptive or
there are potential security concerns."

i.e. the Postmaster has powers which are not relevant to 'public
spaces' in the strict sense of that term.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens
  #53  
Old July 9th 18, 03:34 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
nospam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 24,165
Default Is it really illegal to snap a picture of a clerk in a Post Office?

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

I seem to the question of your subject line was debated at length some
time ago and the conclusion that was eventually reached was that:

1. A Post Office is a space to which the public may have access but
it is not a 'public space' in the strict sense of that term.

2. The post office and its premises are the subject of acts and
regulations which define what should or should not be done.

3. Photographs may not be taken within a post office of the staff or
the premises without the permission of the post master.

I expect someone will correct me if I am wrong.


that might be true where you live but it isn't applicable to the usa,
where the post to which you are replying is referring.

for usa post offices:
https://about.usps.com/postal-bullet.../html/info_005.
html
Informal snapshots from handheld cameras for personal use may be
allowed at the postmaster1s discretion provided that there is no
disruption to Postal Service operations and that the pictures are
taken from areas accessible to the public. In these cases, no prior
permission is required from the Office of Rights and Permissions;
however, no lighting or scaffolding may be set up, and no picture can
depict any Postal Service employee, customer, security camera, or
cover of mail (i.e., the exterior of a mailpiece, which would show
customer name and address among other things). Postmasters may
restrict any and all photography if they determine that it is
disruptive or there are potential security concerns.


You have confirmed most of what I have written, particularly when you
wrote: "Informal snapshots from handheld cameras for personal use may
be allowed at the postmaster1s discretion ... Postmasters may restrict
any and all photography if they determine that it is disruptive or
there are potential security concerns."


not quite.

you missed this key part:
In these cases, no prior
permission is required from the Office of Rights and Permissions;


which contradicts your #3.

basically, photos in the lobby area are not an issue as long as you
don't make a nuisance of yourself, however, the postmaster can still
tell you to leave.

as i said, it may be different where you are, but the original query
was about constitutional rights, therefore it's about the usa.
  #54  
Old July 11th 18, 06:04 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
Eric Stevens
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,611
Default Is it really illegal to snap a picture of a clerk in a Post Office?

On Sun, 08 Jul 2018 22:34:59 -0400, nospam
wrote:

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

I seem to the question of your subject line was debated at length some
time ago and the conclusion that was eventually reached was that:

1. A Post Office is a space to which the public may have access but
it is not a 'public space' in the strict sense of that term.

2. The post office and its premises are the subject of acts and
regulations which define what should or should not be done.

3. Photographs may not be taken within a post office of the staff or
the premises without the permission of the post master.

I expect someone will correct me if I am wrong.

that might be true where you live but it isn't applicable to the usa,
where the post to which you are replying is referring.

for usa post offices:
https://about.usps.com/postal-bullet.../html/info_005.
html
Informal snapshots from handheld cameras for personal use may be
allowed at the postmaster1s discretion provided that there is no
disruption to Postal Service operations and that the pictures are
taken from areas accessible to the public. In these cases, no prior
permission is required from the Office of Rights and Permissions;
however, no lighting or scaffolding may be set up, and no picture can
depict any Postal Service employee, customer, security camera, or
cover of mail (i.e., the exterior of a mailpiece, which would show
customer name and address among other things). Postmasters may
restrict any and all photography if they determine that it is
disruptive or there are potential security concerns.


You have confirmed most of what I have written, particularly when you
wrote: "Informal snapshots from handheld cameras for personal use may
be allowed at the postmaster1s discretion ... Postmasters may restrict
any and all photography if they determine that it is disruptive or
there are potential security concerns."


not quite.

you missed this key part:
In these cases, no prior
permission is required from the Office of Rights and Permissions;


which contradicts your #3.


Not so. It is clear from the above that the Postmaster cannot grant
permission to take photographs when there will be disruption to Postal
Service operations or when the pictures are to be taken from areas not
accessible to the public. That's when the "Office of Rights and
Permissions" comes into the picture. This is quite a different enitity
from the Postmaster.

basically, photos in the lobby area are not an issue as long as you
don't make a nuisance of yourself, however, the postmaster can still
tell you to leave.


That's another matter but it is still subject to the authority of the
Postaster.

as i said, it may be different where you are, but the original query
was about constitutional rights, therefore it's about the usa.


So too was my original response.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens
  #55  
Old August 6th 18, 05:47 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
nospam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 24,165
Default Is it really illegal to snap a picture of a clerk in a Post Office?

In article ,
wrote:

May I ask:
Legally, in California, in a Post Office, when nobody objects,
is it against the law to snap a photograph or otherwise record
the transaction?


Yes! There is a little know FEDERAL Law from the late 1800's that prohibits
it and is a felony to photograph a postal facility. I'm a professional
photographer for 17 years. Very few people know this and you can
get into some very deep legal trouble if you are actually charged/


then you should be able to cite it.

meanwhile, the us postal service says otherwise.
  #56  
Old August 6th 18, 05:52 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
Savageduck[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 16,487
Default Is it really illegal to snap a picture of a clerk in a Post Office?

On Aug 5, 2018, wrote
(in ):

On Friday, March 29, 2013 at 9:14:30 PM UTC-5, Danny D. wrote:
Is it illegal to snap a photograph of a clerk inside a post office?


Excessive Nymshifter content snipped

May I ask:
Legally, in California, in a Post Office, when nobody objects,
is it against the law to snap a photograph or otherwise record
the transaction?


Yes! There is a little know FEDERAL Law from the late 1800's that prohibits
it and is a felony to photograph a postal facility. I'm a professional
photographer for 17 years.


That is nice, but you don’t seem to have a comprehensive knowledge of
Federal Law. I hope your professional photography is better than your legal
prowess.

You might also have noticed that you are responding to a post from 2013, for
which answers have been provided.

Very few people know this and you can get into
some very deep legal trouble if you are actually charged/


Your actual knowledge on this subject seems to be quite thin, especially as
to what might constitute a felony. Who knows what that odd legal term “very
deep legal trouble” might actually be.

https://about.usps.com/postal-bulletin/2008/html/pb22228/html/info_005.html

....and you should find this notice posted in the foyer of every USPS
facility.

https://about.usps.com/posters/pos7.pdf

--

Regards,
Savageduck

  #57  
Old August 6th 18, 08:41 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
PeterN[_7_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,161
Default Is it really illegal to snap a picture of a clerk in a PostOffice?

On 8/6/2018 12:52 AM, Savageduck wrote:
On Aug 5, 2018, wrote
(in ):

On Friday, March 29, 2013 at 9:14:30 PM UTC-5, Danny D. wrote:
Is it illegal to snap a photograph of a clerk inside a post office?


Excessive Nymshifter content snipped

May I ask:
Legally, in California, in a Post Office, when nobody objects,
is it against the law to snap a photograph or otherwise record
the transaction?


Yes! There is a little know FEDERAL Law from the late 1800's that prohibits
it and is a felony to photograph a postal facility. I'm a professional
photographer for 17 years.


That is nice, but you don’t seem to have a comprehensive knowledge of
Federal Law. I hope your professional photography is better than your legal
prowess.

You might also have noticed that you are responding to a post from 2013, for
which answers have been provided.

Very few people know this and you can get into
some very deep legal trouble if you are actually charged/


Your actual knowledge on this subject seems to be quite thin, especially as
to what might constitute a felony. Who knows what that odd legal term “very
deep legal trouble” might actually be.

https://about.usps.com/postal-bulletin/2008/html/pb22228/html/info_005.html


Pertinent quote:
"Here are a few examples of requests that must be directed to the Office
of Rights and Permissions:

A request to use the images of historic murals for commercial purposes.
(Commercial uses may include reproductions of the murals in books or on
posters, fine art prints, greeting cards, stationery, postcards,
clothing, or other merchandising items such as magnets, coffee mugs, or
other materials for resale.)
A request that requires the set up of equipment aside from the camera
itself (e.g., a tripod, ladder, lighting, or scaffolding).
A request to use a high-resolution, professional-grade camera."


I read your citations as being ambiguous.

While casual images may be taken, unless they show images of personal,
if the image is taken by a high resolution camera, (whatever that
means,) or for use in making a fine art print, (whatever that means,)
you need special permission.....

If someone with proper authority asks you to stop and you don't, at the
very minimum it could cost you a lot of time, and legal fees.


...and you should find this notice posted in the foyer of every USPS
facility.

https://about.usps.com/posters/pos7.pdf

Well and clearly written: /End sarcastic tag

"Photographs for News, Advertising, or Commercial Purposes
Photographs for news purposes may be taken in" entrances, lobbies,
foyers, corridors, or auditoriums when used for public meetings except
where prohibited by official signs or Security Force personnel or other
authorized personnel or a federal court order or rule. Other photographs
may be taken only with the permission of the local Postmaster or
installation head."
But, I need permission to take a selfie with an iPhone.



--
PeterN
  #58  
Old August 6th 18, 09:45 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
Savageduck[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 16,487
Default Is it really illegal to snap a picture of a clerk in a Post Office?

On Aug 6, 2018, PeterN wrote
(in article ):

On 8/6/2018 12:52 AM, Savageduck wrote:
On Aug 5, 2018, wrote
(in ):

On Friday, March 29, 2013 at 9:14:30 PM UTC-5, Danny D. wrote:
Is it illegal to snap a photograph of a clerk inside a post office?


Excessive Nymshifter content snipped

May I ask:
Legally, in California, in a Post Office, when nobody objects,
is it against the law to snap a photograph or otherwise record
the transaction?

Yes! There is a little know FEDERAL Law from the late 1800's that prohibits
it and is a felony to photograph a postal facility. I'm a professional
photographer for 17 years.


That is nice, but you don’t seem to have a comprehensive knowledge of
Federal Law. I hope your professional photography is better than your legal
prowess.

You might also have noticed that you are responding to a post from 2013, for
which answers have been provided.

Very few people know this and you can get into
some very deep legal trouble if you are actually charged/


Your actual knowledge on this subject seems to be quite thin, especially as
to what might constitute a felony. Who knows what that odd legal term
“very deep legal trouble” might actually be.

https://about.usps.com/postal-bullet.../info_005.html


Pertinent quote:
"Here are a few examples of requests that must be directed to the Office
of Rights and Permissions:

A request to use the images of historic murals for commercial purposes.
(Commercial uses may include reproductions of the murals in books or on
posters, fine art prints, greeting cards, stationery, postcards,
clothing, or other merchandising items such as magnets, coffee mugs, or
other materials for resale.)
A request that requires the set up of equipment aside from the camera
itself (e.g., a tripod, ladder, lighting, or scaffolding).
A request to use a high-resolution, professional-grade camera."

I read your citations as being ambiguous.


What was ambiguous regarding obtaining permission for location type shoots at
a USPS facility?

I was not going to search through the Federal Code, as the USPS regulations
regarding photography were much more accessible.

There are similar permit requirements, rules, and ordinances established by
most municipalities, and the State Park, or National Park Services. Try to
engage in a professional location shoot almost anywhere in Manhattan, San
Francisco, State regional Park, or any NP, and see how fast you will be
confronted by a local authority.


While casual images may be taken, unless they show images of personal,
if the image is taken by a high resolution camera, (whatever that
means,) or for use in making a fine art print, (whatever that means,)
you need special permission.....

If someone with proper authority asks you to stop and you don't, at the
very minimum it could cost you a lot of time, and legal fees.


At the very minimum you would have an educational discussion with the local
postmaster or his/her deputy. I would believe that one’s acceptance of the
local authority’s educational briefing would negate any further escalation
leading to legal fees. That would take an attitude, and acceptance failure on
the part of the individual potential rule violator. I have no doubt that
there are individuals who would try to argue their point of view, and find
themselves explaining their argument in a Court.

The real ambiguity is the vague declaration of a potential 30 day jail
sentence for any violation of any of the posted rules, or regulations, which
as you well know means that there is no threat of a felony, just a
misdemeanor.


...and you should find this notice posted in the foyer of every USPS
facility.

https://about.usps.com/posters/pos7.pdf

Well and clearly written: /End sarcastic tag

"Photographs for News, Advertising, or Commercial Purposes
Photographs for news purposes may be taken in" entrances, lobbies,
foyers, corridors, or auditoriums when used for public meetings except
where prohibited by official signs or Security Force personnel or other
authorized personnel or a federal court order or rule. Other photographs
may be taken only with the permission of the local Postmaster or
installation head."
But, I need permission to take a selfie with an iPhone.


The only “selfie” I have shot with my iPhone was the required photo for
the *Mobile Passport* app.

--

Regards,
Savageduck

  #59  
Old August 6th 18, 11:38 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
PeterN[_7_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,161
Default Is it really illegal to snap a picture of a clerk in a PostOffice?

On 8/6/2018 4:45 PM, Savageduck wrote:
On Aug 6, 2018, PeterN wrote
(in article ):

On 8/6/2018 12:52 AM, Savageduck wrote:
On Aug 5, 2018, wrote
(in ):

On Friday, March 29, 2013 at 9:14:30 PM UTC-5, Danny D. wrote:
Is it illegal to snap a photograph of a clerk inside a post office?

Excessive Nymshifter content snipped

May I ask:
Legally, in California, in a Post Office, when nobody objects,
is it against the law to snap a photograph or otherwise record
the transaction?

Yes! There is a little know FEDERAL Law from the late 1800's that prohibits
it and is a felony to photograph a postal facility. I'm a professional
photographer for 17 years.

That is nice, but you don’t seem to have a comprehensive knowledge of
Federal Law. I hope your professional photography is better than your legal
prowess.

You might also have noticed that you are responding to a post from 2013, for
which answers have been provided.

Very few people know this and you can get into
some very deep legal trouble if you are actually charged/

Your actual knowledge on this subject seems to be quite thin, especially as
to what might constitute a felony. Who knows what that odd legal term
“very deep legal trouble” might actually be.

https://about.usps.com/postal-bullet.../info_005.html


Pertinent quote:
"Here are a few examples of requests that must be directed to the Office
of Rights and Permissions:

A request to use the images of historic murals for commercial purposes.
(Commercial uses may include reproductions of the murals in books or on
posters, fine art prints, greeting cards, stationery, postcards,
clothing, or other merchandising items such as magnets, coffee mugs, or
other materials for resale.)
A request that requires the set up of equipment aside from the camera
itself (e.g., a tripod, ladder, lighting, or scaffolding).
A request to use a high-resolution, professional-grade camera."

I read your citations as being ambiguous.


What was ambiguous regarding obtaining permission for location type shoots at
a USPS facility?

I was not going to search through the Federal Code, as the USPS regulations
regarding photography were much more accessible.

There are similar permit requirements, rules, and ordinances established by
most municipalities, and the State Park, or National Park Services. Try to
engage in a professional location shoot almost anywhere in Manhattan, San
Francisco, State regional Park, or any NP, and see how fast you will be
confronted by a local authority.


While casual images may be taken, unless they show images of personal,
if the image is taken by a high resolution camera, (whatever that
means,) or for use in making a fine art print, (whatever that means,)
you need special permission.....

If someone with proper authority asks you to stop and you don't, at the
very minimum it could cost you a lot of time, and legal fees.


At the very minimum you would have an educational discussion with the local
postmaster or his/her deputy. I would believe that one’s acceptance of the
local authority’s educational briefing would negate any further escalation
leading to legal fees. That would take an attitude, and acceptance failure on
the part of the individual potential rule violator. I have no doubt that
there are individuals who would try to argue their point of view, and find
themselves explaining their argument in a Court.

The real ambiguity is the vague declaration of a potential 30 day jail
sentence for any violation of any of the posted rules, or regulations, which
as you well know means that there is no threat of a felony, just a
misdemeanor.


I am not talking about felonies, unless things escalate. i am talking
about ambiguity in the regulation.





...and you should find this notice posted in the foyer of every USPS
facility.

https://about.usps.com/posters/pos7.pdf

Well and clearly written: /End sarcastic tag

"Photographs for News, Advertising, or Commercial Purposes
Photographs for news purposes may be taken in" entrances, lobbies,
foyers, corridors, or auditoriums when used for public meetings except
where prohibited by official signs or Security Force personnel or other
authorized personnel or a federal court order or rule. Other photographs
may be taken only with the permission of the local Postmaster or
installation head."
But, I need permission to take a selfie with an iPhone.


The only “selfie” I have shot with my iPhone was the required photo for
the *Mobile Passport* app.


That's more selfies than I have ever taken, with the exception of a
growth to send to my dermatologist.

--
PeterN
  #60  
Old August 7th 18, 01:07 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
Savageduck[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 16,487
Default Is it really illegal to snap a picture of a clerk in a Post Office?

On Aug 6, 2018, PeterN wrote
(in article ):

On 8/6/2018 4:45 PM, Savageduck wrote:
On Aug 6, 2018, PeterN wrote
(in article ):

On 8/6/2018 12:52 AM, Savageduck wrote:
On Aug 5, 2018, wrote
(in ):

On Friday, March 29, 2013 at 9:14:30 PM UTC-5, Danny D. wrote:
Is it illegal to snap a photograph of a clerk inside a post office?

Excessive Nymshifter content snipped

May I ask:
Legally, in California, in a Post Office, when nobody objects,
is it against the law to snap a photograph or otherwise record
the transaction?

Yes! There is a little know FEDERAL Law from the late 1800's that
prohibits
it and is a felony to photograph a postal facility. I'm a professional
photographer for 17 years.

That is nice, but you don’t seem to have a comprehensive knowledge of
Federal Law. I hope your professional photography is better than your
legal
prowess.

You might also have noticed that you are responding to a post from 2013,
for
which answers have been provided.

Very few people know this and you can get into
some very deep legal trouble if you are actually charged/

Your actual knowledge on this subject seems to be quite thin, especially
as
to what might constitute a felony. Who knows what that odd legal term
“very deep legal trouble” might actually be.

https://about.usps.com/postal-bullet...ml/info_005.ht
ml

Pertinent quote:
"Here are a few examples of requests that must be directed to the Office
of Rights and Permissions:

A request to use the images of historic murals for commercial purposes.
(Commercial uses may include reproductions of the murals in books or on
posters, fine art prints, greeting cards, stationery, postcards,
clothing, or other merchandising items such as magnets, coffee mugs, or
other materials for resale.)
A request that requires the set up of equipment aside from the camera
itself (e.g., a tripod, ladder, lighting, or scaffolding).
A request to use a high-resolution, professional-grade camera."

I read your citations as being ambiguous.


What was ambiguous regarding obtaining permission for location type shoots
at
a USPS facility?

I was not going to search through the Federal Code, as the USPS regulations
regarding photography were much more accessible.

There are similar permit requirements, rules, and ordinances established by
most municipalities, and the State Park, or National Park Services. Try to
engage in a professional location shoot almost anywhere in Manhattan, San
Francisco, State regional Park, or any NP, and see how fast you will be
confronted by a local authority.


While casual images may be taken, unless they show images of personal,
if the image is taken by a high resolution camera, (whatever that
means,) or for use in making a fine art print, (whatever that means,)
you need special permission.....

If someone with proper authority asks you to stop and you don't, at the
very minimum it could cost you a lot of time, and legal fees.


At the very minimum you would have an educational discussion with the local
postmaster or his/her deputy. I would believe that one’s acceptance of the
local authority’s educational briefing would negate any further escalation
leading to legal fees. That would take an attitude, and acceptance failure
on
the part of the individual potential rule violator. I have no doubt that
there are individuals who would try to argue their point of view, and find
themselves explaining their argument in a Court.

The real ambiguity is the vague declaration of a potential 30 day jail
sentence for any violation of any of the posted rules, or regulations, which
as you well know means that there is no threat of a felony, just a
misdemeanor.


I am not talking about felonies, unless things escalate. i am talking
about ambiguity in the regulation.



...and you should find this notice posted in the foyer of every USPS
facility.

https://about.usps.com/posters/pos7.pdf
Well and clearly written: /End sarcastic tag

"Photographs for News, Advertising, or Commercial Purposes
Photographs for news purposes may be taken in" entrances, lobbies,
foyers, corridors, or auditoriums when used for public meetings except
where prohibited by official signs or Security Force personnel or other
authorized personnel or a federal court order or rule. Other photographs
may be taken only with the permission of the local Postmaster or
installation head."
But, I need permission to take a selfie with an iPhone.


The only “selfie” I have shot with my iPhone was the required photo for
the *Mobile Passport* app.


That's more selfies than I have ever taken, with the exception of a
growth to send to my dermatologist.


If you are going to do any international flying *Mobile Passport* is a must
have app. So far I have only used it twice, and I have plans for another trip
in the New Year.

https://mobilepassport.us

The other thing any photographer doing any flying in the USA should have is
TSA Pre, which will give you a KTN, or *Known Traveller Number*. That makes
check-ins a breeze.

https://www.tsa.gov/precheck
--

Regards,
Savageduck

 




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