CHARTER: rec.photo.digital.zlr

[Per Nordenberg:]
Another supposedly stupid question from me
- where can the charter for this group be
found?

It is quoted at the bottom of the present message, but the stupidity of
the charter by no means contaminate your question.

I know I should have read it before posting
, but I didn't and I'm sorry.

Now I'm sorry that you are going to read it!

Maybe it's a good thing I don't have an Olympus
E-10 yet, because if I had one I'm not sure I would
know in which group I could discuss it

Since this "ZLR" group is dedicated to make people believe that EVFs are
reflex cameras, "ZLR" proponents would for sure welcome discussion about
those SLRs, in order to further their fraud.

I imagine that whatever group I would choose
there would always be someone who would object
to my post.

Since those Olympus are SLRs, no one in a SLR group would object
discussing them. The fact that they have fixed lenses does not change the
fact that they are SLRs.

And maybe it's a good thing as well that I'm a
Swede, because we don't have these 'SLR' 'ZLR'
and 'EVF' designations in the Swedish language.
Here in Sweden all reflex cameras are called
'spegelreflexkameror', whether they have a fixed
lens or not.

For sure all reflex cameras are "spegelreflexkameror", or
"Spiegelreflexkameras", or "mirror-reflex-cameras", because they all have
a mirror that reflects an image of the scene.

Some reflex cameras are "TLR", or "twin-lens-reflex", because the
reflected viewed image comes from a second lens usually above the lens
actually capturing the scene.

Other reflex cameras are "SLR", because they have a single lens through
which the image is both viewed and captured.

"ZLR" is a name given to SLRs with a non-interchangeable zoom lens; thus,
they are necessarily reflex cameras, single lens reflex cameras,
spegelreflexkameror und Spiegelreflexkameras.

Now, EVFs are neither reflex cameras, nor Spiegelreflexkameras, nor
spegelreflexkameror. They are EVFs, that is, with them an image of the
scene to be caputured is viewed through an EVF, or electronic-view-finder.
No mirrors, no reflection, no reflex.

Although I believe that in Sweden all reflex cameras (including TLRs, SLRs
and ZLRs) are simply called "spegelreflexkameror", this could not include
EVFs, which have no mirror and thus are not reflex cameras.

Still, it is possible that even in Sweden, as it happens with this group,
some unscrupulous people try to sell the fraudulent idea that EVFs are
"spegelreflexkameror", in the deceptive attemp to attract to EVFs the
prestige (and the price) associated with spegelreflexkameror.

Damn Olympus for starting all this
trouble when they decided to call
their iS series ZLR cameras...

I think this trouble is actually of little consequence, since "ZLRs" are
just a subset of SLRs anyway, and those cameras can be pefectly be called
"SLRs" as well. Many SLR cameras with non-interchangeable lenses existed
before those Olympus, and no one ever thought they would not be SLRs.

The actual trouble came with those who, taking advantage of the fact that
EVFs have non-interchageable zoom lenses (just like ZLRs) and somehow look
like SLRs, started to call them "ZLRs", thus implying and suggesting that
they are reflex cameras, which they are not.

This group is dedicated to spread, support and further this marketing lie,
as you can see from its charter quoted below.

The best,

Julio.

--------------


CHARTER: rec.photo.digital.zlr

This newsgroup, rec.photo.digital.zlr, is an open forum for the discussion
of
high-end digital cameras with fixed zoom lenses and full manual controls,
and
using those cameras. These cameras are frequently referred to as digital
ZLR
(zoom lens reflex) cameras or SLR-like digital cameras, and typically have
an
SLR-like appearance due to the bulk of the lens rather than the relatively
more
compact shape of most point-and-shoot digital cameras.

Additional On-Topic Discussion:

- Any relevant accessories for digital ZLR cameras, such as: external
flash
units, add-on lens elements, memory cards, microdrives, lens
filters/hoods,
camera bags/cases, digital ZLR maintenance, tripods and monopods.
- Photography techniques, as long as the discussion remains within the
context
of digital ZLR photography
- Image post-processing, as long as the discussion remains within the
context
of digital ZLR photography
- Posting links to personal photo galleries or images, as long as the
discussion remains within the context of digital ZLR photography.

What Is Considered Off-Topic:

- Discussion of "point and shoot" digital cameras with no manual controls
- Discussion of any film cameras
- Discussion of cameras with mounts for detachable lenses
- Discussion of scanners
- Discussion of printers
- Posting links to personal photo galleries or images, not in the context
of
digital ZLR photography

Posting off-topic should be kept to a minimum. All off-topic posts should
be
prefixed with [OT] or another easily-identifiable prefix in the subject
line.
If a segment of any on topic thread ever becomes clearly off-topic, it is
the
duty of those individuals posting to change the subject line to reflect
the
off-topic change.

Debating the pros and cons of digital photography vs. film photography is
off-topic. Please be polite and try to not steer any conversations in that
direction. In the event that any segment of any on-topic thread ever
becomes
clearly off-topic by debating the pros and cons of digital photography vs.
film
photography, it is the duty of those individuals posting to change the
subject
line to reflect the off-topic change.

What Is Considered Inappropriate:

- Crossposting to any other newsgroup except where the post is of direct
relevance to each group in the crosspost

What Is Not Permitted:

- Posts from mail2news gateways and/or anonymous remailers
- Flame wars (comparisons between different digital camera brands or
models are
permitted as long as they do not degenerate into personal flames)
- Signatures with more than 4 lines
- Exchange and/or discussion of illegal software
- Personal attacks
- Binary postings (i.e. non text postings) other than PGP and small binary
signatures
- Commercial advertisements:

This newsgroup explicitly prohibits the posting of advertisements of any
kind,
whether personal, private or commercial, as well as all other promotional
material, whether or not it is in any way related to photography.

Auction announcements (Ebay.com and others) are prohibited.

Posting links to commercial websites with the sole intention of promoting
those
sites is not permitted; links to commercial websites may be posted in the
context of answering a specific question.

All postings made to this group should conform to existing Usenet
guidelines
(see news.announce.newusers for guideline documents).

When posting on rec.photo.digital.zlr, please use standard Usenet
netiquette.
Treat other posters with courtesy and follow standard conventions when
replying
to posts. Please trim the posts you reply to, retaining only the
significant
portions in your follow up. Preserve attributions (the bits that specify
who
wrote what in each post) and limit your signature to 4 lines or less. To
ensure
readability, do not use HTML in your posts and limit your line lengths to
the
Usenet standard of 80 characters or less.

END CHARTER.

[Per Nordenberg:]
Another supposedly stupid question from me
- where can the charter for this group be
found?

It is quoted at the bottom of the present message, but the stupidity of
the charter by no means contaminate your question.

I know I should have read it before posting
, but I didn't and I'm sorry.

Now I'm sorry that you are going to read it!

Maybe it's a good thing I don't have an Olympus
E-10 yet, because if I had one I'm not sure I would
know in which group I could discuss it

Since this "ZLR" group is dedicated to make people believe that EVFs are
reflex cameras, "ZLR" proponents would for sure welcome discussion about
those SLRs, in order to further their fraud.

I imagine that whatever group I would choose
there would always be someone who would object
to my post.

Since those Olympus are SLRs, no one in a SLR group would object
discussing them. The fact that they have fixed lenses does not change the
fact that they are SLRs.

And maybe it's a good thing as well that I'm a
Swede, because we don't have these 'SLR' 'ZLR'
and 'EVF' designations in the Swedish language.
Here in Sweden all reflex cameras are called
'spegelreflexkameror', whether they have a fixed
lens or not.

For sure all reflex cameras are "spegelreflexkameror", or
"Spiegelreflexkameras", or "mirror-reflex-cameras", because they all have
a mirror that reflects an image of the scene.

Some reflex cameras are "TLR", or "twin-lens-reflex", because the
reflected viewed image comes from a second lens usually above the lens
actually capturing the scene.

Other reflex cameras are "SLR", because they have a single lens through
which the image is both viewed and captured.

"ZLR" is a name given to SLRs with a non-interchangeable zoom lens; thus,
they are necessarily reflex cameras, single lens reflex cameras,
spegelreflexkameror und Spiegelreflexkameras.

Now, EVFs are neither reflex cameras, nor Spiegelreflexkameras, nor
spegelreflexkameror. They are EVFs, that is, with them an image of the
scene to be caputured is viewed through an EVF, or electronic-view-finder.
No mirrors, no reflection, no reflex.

Although I believe that in Sweden all reflex cameras (including TLRs, SLRs
and ZLRs) are simply called "spegelreflexkameror", this could not include
EVFs, which have no mirror and thus are not reflex cameras.

Still, it is possible that even in Sweden, as it happens with this group,
some unscrupulous people try to sell the fraudulent idea that EVFs are
"spegelreflexkameror", in the deceptive attemp to attract to EVFs the
prestige (and the price) associated with spegelreflexkameror.

Damn Olympus for starting all this
trouble when they decided to call
their iS series ZLR cameras...

I think this trouble is actually of little consequence, since "ZLRs" are
just a subset of SLRs anyway, and those cameras can be pefectly be called
"SLRs" as well. Many SLR cameras with non-interchangeable lenses existed
before those Olympus, and no one ever thought they would not be SLRs.

The actual trouble came with those who, taking advantage of the fact that
EVFs have non-interchageable zoom lenses (just like ZLRs) and somehow look
like SLRs, started to call them "ZLRs", thus implying and suggesting that
they are reflex cameras, which they are not.

This group is dedicated to spread, support and further this marketing lie,
as you can see from its charter quoted below.

The best,

Julio.

--------------


CHARTER: rec.photo.digital.zlr

This newsgroup, rec.photo.digital.zlr, is an open forum for the discussion
of
high-end digital cameras with fixed zoom lenses and full manual controls,
and
using those cameras. These cameras are frequently referred to as digital
ZLR
(zoom lens reflex) cameras or SLR-like digital cameras, and typically have
an
SLR-like appearance due to the bulk of the lens rather than the relatively
more
compact shape of most point-and-shoot digital cameras.

Additional On-Topic Discussion:

- Any relevant accessories for digital ZLR cameras, such as: external
flash
units, add-on lens elements, memory cards, microdrives, lens
filters/hoods,
camera bags/cases, digital ZLR maintenance, tripods and monopods.
- Photography techniques, as long as the discussion remains within the
context
of digital ZLR photography
- Image post-processing, as long as the discussion remains within the
context
of digital ZLR photography
- Posting links to personal photo galleries or images, as long as the
discussion remains within the context of digital ZLR photography.

What Is Considered Off-Topic:

- Discussion of "point and shoot" digital cameras with no manual controls
- Discussion of any film cameras
- Discussion of cameras with mounts for detachable lenses
- Discussion of scanners
- Discussion of printers
- Posting links to personal photo galleries or images, not in the context
of
digital ZLR photography

Posting off-topic should be kept to a minimum. All off-topic posts should
be
prefixed with [OT] or another easily-identifiable prefix in the subject
line.
If a segment of any on topic thread ever becomes clearly off-topic, it is
the
duty of those individuals posting to change the subject line to reflect
the
off-topic change.

Debating the pros and cons of digital photography vs. film photography is
off-topic. Please be polite and try to not steer any conversations in that
direction. In the event that any segment of any on-topic thread ever
becomes
clearly off-topic by debating the pros and cons of digital photography vs.
film
photography, it is the duty of those individuals posting to change the
subject
line to reflect the off-topic change.

What Is Considered Inappropriate:

- Crossposting to any other newsgroup except where the post is of direct
relevance to each group in the crosspost

What Is Not Permitted:

- Posts from mail2news gateways and/or anonymous remailers
- Flame wars (comparisons between different digital camera brands or
models are
permitted as long as they do not degenerate into personal flames)
- Signatures with more than 4 lines
- Exchange and/or discussion of illegal software
- Personal attacks
- Binary postings (i.e. non text postings) other than PGP and small binary
signatures
- Commercial advertisements:

This newsgroup explicitly prohibits the posting of advertisements of any
kind,
whether personal, private or commercial, as well as all other promotional
material, whether or not it is in any way related to photography.

Auction announcements (Ebay.com and others) are prohibited.

Posting links to commercial websites with the sole intention of promoting
those
sites is not permitted; links to commercial websites may be posted in the
context of answering a specific question.

All postings made to this group should conform to existing Usenet
guidelines
(see news.announce.newusers for guideline documents).

When posting on rec.photo.digital.zlr, please use standard Usenet
netiquette.
Treat other posters with courtesy and follow standard conventions when
replying
to posts. Please trim the posts you reply to, retaining only the
significant
portions in your follow up. Preserve attributions (the bits that specify
who
wrote what in each post) and limit your signature to 4 lines or less. To
ensure
readability, do not use HTML in your posts and limit your line lengths to
the
Usenet standard of 80 characters or less.

END CHARTER.

Michael Meissner commented courteously ...

What does "EVF" stand for?

Electronic Viewfinder, where the viewfinder is
actually a miniature LCD. Mostly found on
prosumer cameras 3x zoom range. I have cameras
with each of the 3 different viewfinders, and
they each have pluses/minuses:

OK. Thanks. I've got an older Fuji 4900 and a newer Nikon
5700 which both fit this description. My wife's little
$150 Kodak has an optical viewfinder but at least it shows
the zoom.

--
ATM, aka Jerry

"Per Nordenberg" wrote in
:

Hej Roland!
I think you mean Olympus E-10 and E-20. OM-10 and OM-20 were the first
consumer grade cameras in the Olympus' OM series of film SLR cameras.



Yepp - typo by me

"Bill Again" wrote in -
online.com:

killfiled

Julio is actually (more or less) correct. His language may be
improved on and so might his general behaviour in this thread.

But - the fact is that ZLR is not even near to a correct name
for the cameras that shall be discussed in this group according
to the charter.

OK - anyone can call them ZLR if they want to. But - if the manufacturer
and/or the shops call them thus - it does indeed look like
a fraud to me.

It is like calling a cat a horse. But - we ___dooo___ call them small
furry animals horses in this shop. Whats wrong with that?


/Roland

Justín Käse wrote in news:4213b255.3009937
@chupacabra:

When I want roast pork with avocado, onion, coriander, and tomato
wrapped in a flattened flour disk, I find it easier to simply say
"Burrito de Carnitas, por favor".
If I want a camera with an electronically extended viewfinder array, and
a non removable zooming lens, I say "ZLR please".

Now - unfortunately there is a huge chance that you
will just get a blank face if you ask for a ZLR.
It means zoom lens reflex - and - you know - no such
beasts are made right now.

Or maybe you are lucky and enters a shop where they call
more advanced consumer digital cameras ZLR. Just as you migh
be lucky and enter the shop where they call cats horses,
if you call cats horses.


/Roland

PS
When I am in Germany and want cheese, I say Käse
DS

Roland Karlsson wrote:
Justmn Kdse wrote in
news:4213b255.3009937
@chupacabra:

When I want roast pork with avocado, onion, coriander, and tomato
wrapped in a flattened flour disk, I find it easier to simply say
"Burrito de Carnitas, por favor".
If I want a camera with an electronically extended viewfinder
array,
and a non removable zooming lens, I say "ZLR please".

Now - unfortunately there is a huge chance that you
will just get a blank face if you ask for a ZLR.
It means zoom lens reflex - and - you know - no such
beasts are made right now.

Or maybe you are lucky and enters a shop where they call
more advanced consumer digital cameras ZLR. Just as you migh
be lucky and enter the shop where they call cats horses,
if you call cats horses.

Whatever the name and leaving aside discussion of its suitability, as
David Taylor posted last month,a charter was accepted by a majority
vote.


--
James V. Silverton
Potomac, Maryland, USA

As David said:

In view of the recent discussions, it may be helpful to have a
reminder of
the group's charter.

Cheers,
David
---------------------------------------------

CHARTER: rec.photo.digital.zlr

This newsgroup, rec.photo.digital.zlr, is an open forum for the
discussion of
high-end digital cameras with fixed zoom lenses and full manual
controls, and
using those cameras. These cameras are frequently referred to as
digital ZLR
(zoom lens reflex) cameras or SLR-like digital cameras, and typically
have an
SLR-like appearance due to the bulk of the lens rather than the
relatively more
compact shape of most point-and-shoot digital cameras.

Roland Karlsson wrote in
:

But - the fact is that ZLR is not even near to a correct name
for the cameras that shall be discussed in this group according
to the charter.


You're still at it; WOW!

--

Bill

James Silverton wrote:
Roland Karlsson wrote:
Justmn Kdse wrote in
news:4213b255.3009937
@chupacabra:

When I want roast pork with avocado, onion, coriander, and tomato
wrapped in a flattened flour disk, I find it easier to simply say
"Burrito de Carnitas, por favor".
If I want a camera with an electronically extended viewfinder
array,
and a non removable zooming lens, I say "ZLR please".

Now - unfortunately there is a huge chance that you
will just get a blank face if you ask for a ZLR.
It means zoom lens reflex - and - you know - no such
beasts are made right now.

Or maybe you are lucky and enters a shop where they call
more advanced consumer digital cameras ZLR. Just as you migh
be lucky and enter the shop where they call cats horses,
if you call cats horses.

Whatever the name and leaving aside discussion of its suitability, as
David Taylor posted last month,a charter was accepted by a majority
vote.

And we all remember the list of questionable "voters" posted, and that
the "majority" was not of "people", but of "voters". Another opportunity
for fraud.

~" ... the best name anyone could come up with ... "

"Anyone" being which member of which group? Pretty clear it was a small
group who failed to ask Pitanga or Karlsson or me. We all have names for
this forum better than the "best name" "anyone" could come up with.

No, seriously: Which member of the selectors suggested that zlr name?
What are the names of the other members of the selectors group, the ones
s/he bulldozed? Aren't you ashamed? Aren't you capable of admitting an
error with sincere I'm-sorrys and no Yes-buts? You've already answered
that, haven't you?

I sense another flurry of defensive Protest-too-much coming on.

Duck!


--
Frank ess
"There are some aspects of existence that simply do not yield to
thinking, plain or fancy."

"Frank ess" wrote in
news
No, seriously: Which member of the selectors suggested that zlr
name?

Originally it was Alan Browne. I worked on the proposal for this group
with David. We announced during the RFD that we were seeking
alternative names. Nobody involved in the process suggested any other
name. The vote for this group was audited by the NAN Team. It was
determined that there was some voter fraud, but there were enough valid
YES votes to pass the group.

ZLR is a nickname. If you don't like it, don't use it. Would you prefer
that cameras like the Coolpix 8800 would have been included in the
charter of the dSLR group? That is what the opposition wanted, and most
of the news.groups regulars wanted that too.

--

Bill