Major sensor technology developments

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

Then I ask you for the third time what happens to the G and B photons
which strike the R filter on an R sensel?

again, bayer sensors do not work the way you think they do.

the other photons are measured by other sensels. very simple.

Are you saying that (for example) R photons do not hit G or B sensels?

of course they do. i've said it several times that all photons are
sampled by more than one sensel, and that sensels do not function in
isolation.

If they do hit, what happens to them?

they go splat.

as i said, it's like saying a sampled audio stream loses data between
the samples, versus analog which has no gaps. a single audio sample
tells you nothing. only when you look at *all* of the samples can you
reproduce the original signal.

similarly, looking at *one* sensel tells you nothing, regardless of its
filter. you need to look at *all* the pixels for accurate results.

Answer: they probably have no effect. i.e. they are wasted.

wrong answer.

correct answer: there is no waste.

if there was waste, then the sensor would be less sensitive than it is,
something which can easily be measured and verified (and which you
continue to ignore because it proves you wrong).

you don't understand how bayer sensors work, and as usual, refuse to
learn anything, instead wanting to argue about what you don't know. you
did the same with the dynamic range thread.

If you understood how bayer sensors work you wouldn't argue as you do
and you would be able to explain how photons are not wasted when they
hit sensels for a different colour.

i do understand how they work, far more than you do, and have explained
it more that once already.

I'm droppping this argument unless someone can explain how photons
which hit wrong-coloured sensels are not wasted. I don't expect that
someone to be you.

translated: you won't admit you are wrong (again).

On 3/16/2019 12:21 PM, Alfred Molon wrote:
... RGB info at every pixel ...

what about RGB-W

there are colors that cannot be reproduced without white

like pink, R+W

why not use some resolution for this?

or how about the 7 colors that separate from white out of a prism,
ROYGBIP, and white, 8 colors total?

at a minimum how about XYZ so you can use CIECAM directly?


--
dale - https://www.dalekelly.org/

On Sun, 17 Mar 2019 23:51:57 -0400, nospam
wrote:

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

Then I ask you for the third time what happens to the G and B photons
which strike the R filter on an R sensel?

again, bayer sensors do not work the way you think they do.

the other photons are measured by other sensels. very simple.

Are you saying that (for example) R photons do not hit G or B sensels?

of course they do. i've said it several times that all photons are
sampled by more than one sensel, and that sensels do not function in
isolation.

Now that's novel physics! Do they go bouncing around from sensel to
sensel like the ball in an old fashioned slot machine?

If they do hit, what happens to them?

they go splat.

as i said, it's like saying a sampled audio stream loses data between
the samples, versus analog which has no gaps. a single audio sample
tells you nothing. only when you look at *all* of the samples can you
reproduce the original signal.

similarly, looking at *one* sensel tells you nothing, regardless of its
filter. you need to look at *all* the pixels for accurate results.

Answer: they probably have no effect. i.e. they are wasted.

wrong answer.

correct answer: there is no waste.

if there was waste, then the sensor would be less sensitive than it is,
something which can easily be measured and verified (and which you
continue to ignore because it proves you wrong).

you don't understand how bayer sensors work, and as usual, refuse to
learn anything, instead wanting to argue about what you don't know. you
did the same with the dynamic range thread.

If you understood how bayer sensors work you wouldn't argue as you do
and you would be able to explain how photons are not wasted when they
hit sensels for a different colour.

i do understand how they work, far more than you do, and have explained
it more that once already.

I'm droppping this argument unless someone can explain how photons
which hit wrong-coloured sensels are not wasted. I don't expect that
someone to be you.

translated: you won't admit you are wrong (again).

--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

In article x4qdnQRdUaQ-fBPBnZ2dnUU7-
, says...
It also doesn't address what becomes of the
photons rejected by the [narrow or wide] RGB
filters.

Those obviously are lost in a Bayer sensor.
--
Alfred Molon

Olympus E-series DSLRs and micro 4/3 forum at
https://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/MyOlympus/
https://myolympus.org/ photo sharing site

In article ,
says...

what about RGB-W

there are colors that cannot be reproduced without white

like pink, R+W

White is a combination of R, G and B

why not use some resolution for this?

You mean having a fourth primary, besides R, G and B?
Can be done, but won't be white (white is not a
wavelength or colour). You could have for instance red,
yellow, green and blue, or red, green, blue and violet.
--
Alfred Molon

Olympus E-series DSLRs and micro 4/3 forum at
https://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/MyOlympus/
https://myolympus.org/ photo sharing site

In article , Alfred
Molon wrote:

what about RGB-W

there are colors that cannot be reproduced without white

like pink, R+W

White is a combination of R, G and B

why not use some resolution for this?

You mean having a fourth primary, besides R, G and B?
Can be done, but won't be white (white is not a
wavelength or colour). You could have for instance red,
yellow, green and blue, or red, green, blue and violet.

rgbw, rgg'b & cmyg have been tried. probably other combinations.

On 3/18/2019 3:30 PM, Alfred Molon wrote:
In article ,
says...

what about RGB-W

there are colors that cannot be reproduced without white

like pink, R+W

White is a combination of R, G and B

for pink you would need

R + (R,G,B)

but you already have used the R

all you have left is R + (0,G,B)


why not use some resolution for this?

You mean having a fourth primary, besides R, G and B?
Can be done, but won't be white (white is not a
wavelength or colour). You could have for instance red,
yellow, green and blue, or red, green, blue and violet.


white is a light before refraction into a color

a 5000K Planckian block body receiver is daylight on the horizon

a sensor filter element would match 5000K, for instance


--
dale - https://www.dalekelly.org/

On 3/16/2019 6:43 PM, nospam wrote:
In article , Alfred
Molon wrote:

2. Full colour sensors: full RGB info at every pixel.

that's not necessary. bayer works exceptionally well because it's based
on human physiology.

full rgb offers nothing that can be seen and brings with it a lot of
compromises.

Probably can be implemented with the organic sensor
design (three stacked layers, each sensitive to a
certain range of colours).
Benefits: all incoming photons are used,

all incoming photons are used with bayer.

full colour
info at any pixel resulting in less colour aliasing =
high effective sensor resolution.

except that foevon cameras omit the anti-alias filter, resulting in
*more* aliasing, not less.

they also lie about the number of pixels in an attempt to fool people
into thinking the sensor is better than it actually is, resulting in
the effective resolution being *less* than competing cameras.


Like the Nikon 800E

https://www.lifepixel.com/photography-gear/anti-aliasing-low-pass-filter-removal

And high quality MF cameras.

--
PeterN

In article , PeterN
wrote:

full colour
info at any pixel resulting in less colour aliasing =
high effective sensor resolution.

except that foevon cameras omit the anti-alias filter, resulting in
*more* aliasing, not less.

they also lie about the number of pixels in an attempt to fool people
into thinking the sensor is better than it actually is, resulting in
the effective resolution being *less* than competing cameras.


Like the Nikon 800E

https://www.lifepixel.com/photography-gear/anti-aliasing-low-pass-filter-removal

And high quality MF cameras.

the nikon d800e and mf cameras have a significantly higher sampling
frequency to where an aa filter is not critical. there are occasional
artifacts, but it's rare.

the sigma cameras sample at a *much* lower rate and overrun with
artifacts.

On 3/18/2019 3:23 PM, Alfred Molon wrote:
In article x4qdnQRdUaQ-fBPBnZ2dnUU7-
, says...
It also doesn't address what becomes of the
photons rejected by the [narrow or wide] RGB
filters.

Those obviously are lost in a Bayer sensor.

That's always been my understanding.

I'm trying to get a grip on nospam's continual
insistence that "all photons are captured by at least
one sensel" frequently followed by "nothing is wasted."
~~
I suspect a problem with definitions and terminology
that is creating a communication barrier.
--
==
Later...
Ron C
--