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Aero-Technika question



 
 
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  #1  
Old April 15th 11, 06:38 PM posted to rec.photo.equipment.large-format
Greg Faris
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Posts: 4
Default Aero-Technika question

I think this is a Bob Salomon question, if Bob is still reading here.
I am still using my Aero-Technika 45EL, and still think it is an
excellent choice for aerial oblique photography. It's actually
relatively compact and easy to handle (once you're used to it) and
records tons more resolution than all but the most exotic, high-end
digital units costing $50K+ (and maybe even many of these).

I have recently acquired a new (to me) Aero-Rollex motorized magazine.
Unlike the others I have, this one has a momentary-contact button on the
top. There is nothing on the "check-list" or otherwise printed on the
magazine to indicate its function.

What's the button for?

Thanks

  #2  
Old April 18th 11, 06:27 PM posted to rec.photo.equipment.large-format
Greg Faris
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Posts: 4
Default Aero-Technika question

Well, I'm able to answer my own question. Maybe Bob just doesn't have
enough Linhof questions qny more to keep himself busy on newsgroups like
this one.

A closer look reveals that the "button" is a strictly mechanical
device.It's a marker. Pressing it drives, inside the magazine, the Linhof
equivalent of a thumbtack ($600 thumbtack anyone?) making a depression on
the film. If you didn't shoot all the film you loaded, you can find this
mark by feel when you're back in the darkroom, cut the film off there, and
reload the remainder for the next sortie.

Obviously these are not daylight or "subdued light" magazines. They
require full darkness to load and unload. It "can" be done in a larger
changing bag, but trying to do this in a Cessna 172 is something
even Houdini would not have wagered. With a capacity of 150 4x5 shots, and
film stock and processing nearing $4/shot, load capacity and management
become important.



In article ,
says...


I think this is a Bob Salomon question, if Bob is still reading here.
I am still using my Aero-Technika 45EL, and still think it is an
excellent choice for aerial oblique photography. It's actually
relatively compact and easy to handle (once you're used to it) and
records tons more resolution than all but the most exotic, high-end
digital units costing $50K+ (and maybe even many of these).

I have recently acquired a new (to me) Aero-Rollex motorized magazine.
Unlike the others I have, this one has a momentary-contact button on the
top. There is nothing on the "check-list" or otherwise printed on the
magazine to indicate its function.

What's the button for?

Thanks


  #3  
Old April 18th 11, 07:06 PM posted to rec.photo.equipment.large-format
Thor Lancelot Simon
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Posts: 163
Default Aero-Technika question

In article ,
Greg Faris wrote:
Well, I'm able to answer my own question. Maybe Bob just doesn't have
enough Linhof questions qny more to keep himself busy on newsgroups like
this one.

A closer look reveals that the "button" is a strictly mechanical
device.It's a marker. Pressing it drives, inside the magazine, the Linhof
equivalent of a thumbtack ($600 thumbtack anyone?) making a depression on
the film. If you didn't shoot all the film you loaded, you can find this
mark by feel when you're back in the darkroom, cut the film off there, and
reload the remainder for the next sortie.

Obviously these are not daylight or "subdued light" magazines. They
require full darkness to load and unload. It "can" be done in a larger
changing bag, but trying to do this in a Cessna 172 is something
even Houdini would not have wagered. With a capacity of 150 4x5 shots, and
film stock and processing nearing $4/shot, load capacity and management
become important.


It sounds like you process your own large format roll film. I have
always been curious about this -- what are the processing equipment
and workflow for long rolls of this film like?

I've seen, once, an automatic processing machine for 10" aero film.
Didn't get a look at its innards. It seemed like one mounted the
magazine on it and it slowly pulled the film through each bath in
turn -- a roller-transport machine like a very odd Kreonite or Colenta
paper processor, basically. But is this kind of film ever processed
by hand? How? Surely not on reels?

Thor
--
Thor Lancelot Simon
And now he couldn't remember when this passion had flown, leaving him so
foolish and bewildered and astray: can any man?
William Styron
  #4  
Old April 18th 11, 08:02 PM posted to rec.photo.equipment.large-format
Greg Faris
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Posts: 4
Default Aero-Technika question

In article , says...

It sounds like you process your own large format roll film. I have
always been curious about this -- what are the processing equipment
and workflow for long rolls of this film like?

I've seen, once, an automatic processing machine for 10" aero film.
Didn't get a look at its innards. It seemed like one mounted the
magazine on it and it slowly pulled the film through each bath in
turn -- a roller-transport machine like a very odd Kreonite or Colenta
paper processor, basically. But is this kind of film ever processed
by hand? How? Surely not on reels?

Thor




Itís true I usually process my film, but thatís only because I have the good
fortune to have access, through my workplace to a Kodak Versamat continuous
rollfilm processor able to be set up to run C41 process. Otherwise, the prices
I indicated are based on those quoted by any number of pro labs who still
offer this service and will probably continue to do so for several years to
come. I am not aware of reel-and-tank systems for these large roll films, but
Kodak does publish times and chemistry for "rewind development" though they
stop short of actually recommending this. The biggest problem with tank or
rewind development is drying the film, which of course is done automatically
in the purpose-made gear.

People keep saying these films are dead or dying, yet Kodak introduced new
emulsions in 5"-100í format as recently as 2010 with their 2460 Aerocolor IV
negative. One of the interesting aspects of these negative emulsions is their
lack of an orange color mask. This helps resolution, and makes the negatives
themselves much more interesting to look at and much easier to "see" prior to
post processing (which today means scanning) though it is not necessarily a
benefit for color balance per se.

The day will come, probably sooner rather than later, when all of this comes
to a grinding halt, but for today it is still a relatively rapid, compact and
ultra high-quality means of acquisition, with multiple workflow options after
processing.

  #5  
Old April 19th 11, 06:11 PM posted to rec.photo.equipment.large-format
Stefan Patric[_3_]
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Posts: 19
Default Aero-Technika question

On Mon, 18 Apr 2011 21:02:10 +0200, Greg Faris wrote:

[snip]

The day will come, probably sooner rather than later, when all of this
comes to a grinding halt, but for today it is still a relatively rapid,
compact and ultra high-quality means of acquisition, with multiple
workflow options after processing.


It's going to be a long time before a cost effective large format digital
sensor is produced that matches the quality and resolution of aero film.
Even so, it's such a limited market, the cost will still be high. Just
look at the price of digital backs for medium format today. And they are
only 36 x 48mm in size.

Stef
  #6  
Old April 20th 11, 06:55 PM posted to rec.photo.equipment.large-format
Greg Faris
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Posts: 4
Default Aero-Technika question

In article , says...



It's going to be a long time before a cost effective large format digital
sensor is produced that matches the quality and resolution of aero film.
Even so, it's such a limited market, the cost will still be high. Just
look at the price of digital backs for medium format today. And they are
only 36 x 48mm in size.



The case of oblique aerial photography is unique. Though it may be
pictorial in nature, there is a "data acquisition" aspect to it. You may be
taking a picture for a real estate agent who wants to sell a property, but
sooner or later someone is going to put a magnifying glass on it to try to
find some elusive detail. Nothing beats large-format film for this. Itís
possible to shoot a scene a kilometer wide from 4000 feet and still get a
car license plate off it. I donít believe any digital sensor today can do
that. Flight time is expensive, re-shoots usually prohibitively so, working
pace can be fast, and you want a compact maneuverable device that can pack
in as much data as possible on every shot. You donít have time or room to
fiddle with things. The Aero-Technika is a 4x5 point-and-shoot!

Vertical photogrammetry and remote sensing have largely moved away from
photographic means, using mostly Laser Radar (LIDAR) for preparation of
maps. The images yield nowhere near the resolution of film, but they give
other types of information, such as precise height and contour which are
difficult to interpret in vertical photographs. Other airborne scientific
applications are using digital and electronic sensors as well, so digital
has pretty much caught up with that end of aerial photography, and users
will be retiring their Zeiss RMK Top and Leitz Wild 9X9" cameras. We can
expect that digital photography will catch up with film for oblique aerial
use as well, but perhaps not quickly. Many photographers are now saying the
22MP sensors currently available are more than good enough for any type of
general photography, and there is just not much impetus for higher
resolutions. So I tend to agree with your assessment that any new sensor
able to compete with 4x5 film for aerial work will likely remain VERY
expensive for some time to come.

  #7  
Old April 21st 11, 03:46 AM posted to rec.photo.equipment.large-format
Stefan Patric[_3_]
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Posts: 19
Default Aero-Technika question

On Wed, 20 Apr 2011 19:55:20 +0200, Greg Faris wrote:

In article ,
says...



It's going to be a long time before a cost effective large format
digital sensor is produced that matches the quality and resolution of
aero film. Even so, it's such a limited market, the cost will still be
high. Just look at the price of digital backs for medium format today.
And they are only 36 x 48mm in size.



The case of oblique aerial photography is unique. Though it may be
[snip]

Vertical photogrammetry and remote sensing have largely moved away from
photographic means, using mostly Laser Radar (LIDAR) for preparation of
maps. The images yield nowhere near the resolution of film, but they
give other types of information, such as precise height and contour
which are difficult to interpret in vertical photographs. Other airborne
scientific applications are using digital and electronic sensors as
well, so digital has pretty much caught up with that end of aerial
photography, and users will be retiring their Zeiss RMK Top and Leitz
Wild 9X9" cameras. We can expect that digital photography will catch up
with film for oblique aerial use as well, but perhaps not quickly. Many
photographers are now saying the 22MP sensors currently available are
more than good enough for any type of general photography, and there is


That's what they said when 6MP sensors, and then 8, 10, 12, etc.
Whatever sensor is current is "good enough . . ." That is, until the
next higher resolution one comes out. ;-)

just not much impetus for higher resolutions. So I tend to agree with
your assessment that any new sensor able to compete with 4x5 film for
aerial work will likely remain VERY expensive for some time to come.


We're both wrong! At least as far as being a long time to wait for a
large format sensor. Was reading your reply and remembered this:

http://www.dpreview.com/news/1008/10...gestsensor.asp

No poop on resolution or price. Naturally. But my guess is that the
resolution isn't that high, relative to its size, due to its low light
sensitivity. And, probably, very low noise. Of course, even if you
installed only a 4x5 section of it in your Aero Technika, I'll wager, it
still won't be cost effective compared to film. Or match film's
resolution. ;-)

Stef
 




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