Starting camera - part II

I want to thanks folks for the responses, especially Steve and Kerry.
I'm still researcing the lenses and camera, but have decided to stay
with #0 and #1 shutters. The question now is coordinating the lenses
(125mm and 240mm intially - using Mike Davis's spreadsheet) with
either a field camera or an entry level monorail, both in the
mid-price range ($~1-2K?).

The field camera has advantages of portability for hiking, but as
noted, some monorail ones are quite portable, especially if it's the
only camera I take. Are any advantages to a U-shape or L-shape
monorail, the Horseman LE, and the Toyo View 45C or Canham DLC45 for
example?

I picked 125mm and 240mm because the 35mm shift lens and 800m
tilt-shift lens or 85mm f1.7lens are my two most used landscape
lenses, followed by 100mm macro lens, 24mm or 28mm, and 45mm lenses.
This leave a 65-75mm LF lens the next logical choice(?).

In the meantime I'm also making a list of things I need and things I'd
like. Do folks use a binocular back much? I find when using my
Minola XK with the waist level viewfinder I have problems with the
upside down and backward view. My brain can't seem to naturally see
the image correctly. Does any camera or third party make a true prism
finder for cameras?

Also, I noticed some have full or partial frame light meters. I use a
Sekonic L358 flash/spot meter but wonder if that would suffice (does
according to some literature). I use it routinely with the shift and
tilt-shift lens since 35mm cameras don't meter accurately when shifted
or tilted much off-center (they're close until the extremes).

Thanks for the help and letting someone think out loud with books and
stacks of literature around them going, "Huh?" I'm still trying to
understand the film thing, loading and unloading. Really dumb
question, after you exposed the film and removed the film holder, how
you do remove the film and into what? I have a black bag, so do you
use that (or a really dark, windowless room) to move the film to a box
or what for processing?

--Scott--

Really dumb
question, after you exposed the film and removed the film holder, how
you do remove the film and into what? I have a black bag, so do you
use that (or a really dark, windowless room) to move the film to a box
or what for processing?

--Scott--

Depends where you are and how many film holders you have.
If you are near your lab you could simply open them and drop the film into
developer (in a dark room - no lights)
Or if you are far from a lab and have many shots and few film holders you
can put them back into an empty film box (losing any specific information
that you have jotted down on the film holder (exposure, etc.). At least you
can tell the film type in the dark from the notches.
Do whatever works for you. Obviously the less handling the better and try
not to touch the emulsion side with bare hands.

-Jack

Hi Scott,


The upside down backwards view is something you quickly get used to.
Years ago scientists made an experiment. They put goggles on volunteers
that turned the image of the world upside down and backwards. After a
short while, the brain adjusted and people saw the images right side up
and straight forward.


I use two B&J Grover monorails (4x5 and 5x&) in the field. I transport
them (most places) on a tripod in a golf bag strapped into a golf cart
with large wheels. No effort at all.


Your Sekonic light meter should do just fine. As long as you carefully
measure highlights and shadows, you should be able to decide where to
place the exposure. In fact, over time, you will probably look at the
scene and accurately estimate it without the meter. But that takes
experience.


I do all loading and unloading of film holders in my darkroom. I plan
ahead to take enough negatives with me for the trip so I do not have to
do any field changing. I use army surplus ammo containers to carry the
film holders. They are compact, waterproof and easy to carry. When I
remove the film from the holder it is for processing. For that I use a
home made "processing panel". [Do a google groups search for my name
and 'processing panel' and you will find a full description of tray
development with this device. ] One tip re loading. Vacuum the film
holder for dust before inserting the film.


You may notice all the improvising. That is part of the fun of large
format to me. You can be innovative. You can also make your own lens
holders for the front standard of a large format camera, either from
wood or metal, depending on the tools available to you. I used to use
mostly wood, but of late with a little adaptation I am working mostly
with metal.


Francis A. Miniter


Scott M. Knowles wrote:

I want to thanks folks for the responses, especially Steve and Kerry.
I'm still researcing the lenses and camera, but have decided to stay
with #0 and #1 shutters. The question now is coordinating the lenses
(125mm and 240mm intially - using Mike Davis's spreadsheet) with
either a field camera or an entry level monorail, both in the
mid-price range ($~1-2K?).

The field camera has advantages of portability for hiking, but as
noted, some monorail ones are quite portable, especially if it's the
only camera I take. Are any advantages to a U-shape or L-shape
monorail, the Horseman LE, and the Toyo View 45C or Canham DLC45 for
example?

I picked 125mm and 240mm because the 35mm shift lens and 800m
tilt-shift lens or 85mm f1.7lens are my two most used landscape
lenses, followed by 100mm macro lens, 24mm or 28mm, and 45mm lenses.
This leave a 65-75mm LF lens the next logical choice(?).

In the meantime I'm also making a list of things I need and things I'd
like. Do folks use a binocular back much? I find when using my
Minola XK with the waist level viewfinder I have problems with the
upside down and backward view. My brain can't seem to naturally see
the image correctly. Does any camera or third party make a true prism
finder for cameras?

Also, I noticed some have full or partial frame light meters. I use a
Sekonic L358 flash/spot meter but wonder if that would suffice (does
according to some literature). I use it routinely with the shift and
tilt-shift lens since 35mm cameras don't meter accurately when shifted
or tilted much off-center (they're close until the extremes).

Thanks for the help and letting someone think out loud with books and
stacks of literature around them going, "Huh?" I'm still trying to
understand the film thing, loading and unloading. Really dumb
question, after you exposed the film and removed the film holder, how
you do remove the film and into what? I have a black bag, so do you
use that (or a really dark, windowless room) to move the film to a box
or what for processing?

--Scott--

"Scott M. Knowles" wrote

Preamble: More folks give up on LF that stick with it. It is
usually recommended to start with used gear, and not pay too
much for it, as the odds are you will be selling it. And even
if you stick to it you will sell it eventually for some other
toy (that takes just the same pictures, but nobody admits it).

A good starter camera is a Speed Graphic. It is possible to get
one in very good condition with a good lens (152 Ektar is maybe the
best) for $250. For landscape it has all the movements you will
need. Good for backpacking as a tripod isn't really needed. You
can hand-hold it, for extra stability hold it against a tree or
prop it on a rock. Additionally it has a 'rear shutter' so you
can buy lenses without shutters.

I picked 125mm and 240mm because [they resemble the view of my
35mm lenses]

Hooh boy, are you going to be paying a premium for that choice,
especially when buying new, which you will most likely have to
for the 125mm.

240's can be expensive and hard to find. 210's are cheap and plentiful.
You could save $300 - $500 if you will give up those 3cm. It's not a
big difference: it would be like going from an 80mm to a 90mm on a '35.

Ditto the 125. If you go to:

http://www.f32.net/Services/Equipmen...s.html#111-125

Compare the listings for 120mm against 125mm. You are down to
2 obscure Fuji's Vs oodles of 120's.

You will not recover the premium price for 125/240 when you go to
sell. You will be selling at 120/210 prices because most people
won't pay a premium for a 4% change in focal length.

The common choice:

When buying used lenses the shutter may need a clean &
lube, but that is no large matter and it will return the shutter
to spanking new performance - keep the receipt and you can just
about recover the C&L when you sell.

The lens line up:

A 90mm Angulon: $50-200 (Get one with a chromed 'Synchro' shutter)
A 150mm or 180 premium lens - Sironar, Sinaron, Symmar etc.: $300-700
(the $300 ones work just as well as the $700 ones). Ektars and other
$100 wonders are also good.
A 300mm - I have a Rodenstock Geronar and a Nikkor M and I can't
see the difference in 20x24 enlargements: $150 - $300

Get used to this starter set and fill it out when you spot a
bargain. I have a 210mm Voightlander Velostigmat: $50 at a show.

There are no cheap wide angle lenses except for the Angulon and
its clones. Figure $600 for a 75mm or 65mm.

If you have a Speed Graphic you will need a tele-photo 300mm or stick
with a 210 as your longest.

If a lens doesn't suit you, sell it for what you paid (or more)
and buy one that does.

Ditto if the whole shebang doesn't suit. Don't tie up money in
dusty junk: put it in a 401K.

* * *

Do folks use a binocular back much?

In the studio, quite often. In the field, never.

Does any camera or third party make a true prism finder for [4x5]
cameras?

No. Why do you ask? It would weigh 12 lbs and cost about $xx,0000.00
Pick your x. You will most likely would have the only one in the world.
Famous last words...

Also, I noticed some have full or partial frame light meters.

A Sinar with a metering back isn't usually considered a field camera -
though there is one poster who backpacks a P2, just wait till he gets
a bit older, though ...

I use a Sekonic L358 flash/spot meter but wonder if that would suffice

Overkill. The best photos of Adams and Weston and Evans and Lange and...
and...and... were made with no light meter at all. A $5 selenium found
on ebay will work fine if you feel you need one. However the 'Zone System'
is ever so trendy and de-riguer and the spot feature of the 358 will
come in handy.

how do you remove the film from the holder

Most people use their fingers.

It comes out the same way it goes in. Don't cut your fingernails too
short. There is a circular depression where the edge of the film
is so you can pick the sheet up and pull it out.

and into what?

On the table? And then into a tray of developer or a developing drum or
an old film box for later processing.

I have a black bag, so do you use that (or a really dark, windowless
room) to move the film to a box or what for processing?

Yes.

--
Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
Remove spaces etc. to reply: n o lindan at net com dot com
psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/

"Nicholas O. Lindan" wrote in message news
Hooh boy, are you going to be paying a premium for that choice,
especially when buying new, which you will most likely have to
for the 125mm.

Why's that? Both MPEX (1) and KEH (2) currently have used 125mm lenses listed on their web sites. Prices range from $299 - $415, depending on condition. Compare that to used 120mm lenses on those same two web sites.

Compare the listings for 120mm against 125mm. You are down to
2 obscure Fuji's Vs oodles of 120's.

Fujinon lenses, either new or used, are anything but obscure. They may not have an official US distributor, but they are readily available from a number of reputable dealers.

Problem is, other than the 120mm Super Symmar HM (a wonderful, discontinued lens that will cost about 2X the price of a used 125mm Fujinon W), most 120mm lenses are either wide angles for 5x7 (120mm f8 Super Angulon, 120 f8 Nikkor SW), or have rather small image circles for 4x5 (120mm f5.6 APO-Symmar). If you get one of the 5x7 wide angles, they are expensive, big and heavy, take large filters and are a full stop slower (f8 vs. f5.6) to boot. There is also the 120mm f6.8 Angulon, but it is not in the same class as these newer, multicoated lenses (not saying it's a "bad" lenses, just applesranges to compare a 40 - 50 year old single coated lens to a much more recent multicoated lens)

Comparing new lenses - the only two new 120mm lenses not counting digital and macro) available are the 120mm f5.6 APO Symmar (189mm image circle, $710) and the 120mm f8 Nikkor SW (312mm image circle, $995). The only 125mm is the 125mm f5.6 Fujinon CM-W (204mm image circle, $635).

So, new or used, I don't see how the extra 5mm of a 125mm vs. 120mm lens offers any significant disadvantage or price penalty. Personally, I'd shop around for both focal lengths, and get which ever was available at the best price. My personal favorite (for 4x5) in the 120/125mm range is the 120mm Super Symmar HM, but it is discontined, was expensive new, and can be hard to find used (often at a higher price than a new 125mm Fujinon CM-W).

240's can be expensive and hard to find. 210's are cheap and plentiful.

You could save $300 - $500 if you will give up those 3cm.

Only if you are only considering 240mm f5.6 plasmats. For 4x5 field use, the f9 process lenses (240mm f9 Fujinon A and 240mm f9 APO Ronar) make a lot more sense. As I mentioned in an earlier post, as of this morning MPEX had a 240mm Fujinon A in "9" condition for $399. Used, shutter mounted, multicoated 240mm APO Ronars sell for about the same, or slightly higher, price as a similar (late model, shutter mounted, multicoated) 210mm f5.6 plasmats. You sacrifice a little speed (and coverage in the case of the APO Ronar - but it shouldn't be an issue on 4x5), but you save a heck of a lot of weight and bulk. Of course, there are also compact, lightweght 200 - 210mm lenses to consider. I'm just trying to point out that a 240mm lens doesn't have to be huge and/or outrageously expensive.

Kerry

(Scott M. Knowles) wrote in message om...
I want to thanks folks for the responses, especially Steve and Kerry.
I'm still researcing the lenses and camera, but have decided to stay
with #0 and #1 shutters. The question now is coordinating the lenses
(125mm and 240mm intially - using Mike Davis's spreadsheet) with
either a field camera or an entry level monorail, both in the
mid-price range ($~1-2K?).

The field camera has advantages of portability for hiking, but as
noted, some monorail ones are quite portable, especially if it's the
only camera I take. Are any advantages to a U-shape or L-shape
monorail, the Horseman LE, and the Toyo View 45C or Canham DLC45 for
example?

I picked 125mm and 240mm because the 35mm shift lens and 800m
tilt-shift lens or 85mm f1.7lens are my two most used landscape
lenses, followed by 100mm macro lens, 24mm or 28mm, and 45mm lenses.
This leave a 65-75mm LF lens the next logical choice(?).

In the meantime I'm also making a list of things I need and things I'd
like. Do folks use a binocular back much? I find when using my
Minola XK with the waist level viewfinder I have problems with the
upside down and backward view. My brain can't seem to naturally see
the image correctly. Does any camera or third party make a true prism
finder for cameras?

Also, I noticed some have full or partial frame light meters. I use a
Sekonic L358 flash/spot meter but wonder if that would suffice (does
according to some literature). I use it routinely with the shift and
tilt-shift lens since 35mm cameras don't meter accurately when shifted
or tilted much off-center (they're close until the extremes).

Thanks for the help and letting someone think out loud with books and
stacks of literature around them going, "Huh?" I'm still trying to
understand the film thing, loading and unloading. Really dumb
question, after you exposed the film and removed the film holder, how
you do remove the film and into what? I have a black bag, so do you
use that (or a really dark, windowless room) to move the film to a box
or what for processing?

--Scott--

I'm surprised at what people will spend to try something new.
Paying $1k to $2k for a new body is a lot of money.
You may well find that one body won't do everything.
If you do lots of movements then a good "technical" camera will
probably do 90% of what you need, but not 100%.

You might be well off to have 2 bodies. A monorail with lots of
movement will take care of any studio shots and a good field camera
like a Toyo will give good movement for a modest price.
Check out Midwest Photo Exchange. Jim has a good selection of
quality used gear and he's good to work with. (I spend too much
time in there. Way too much.)

Very often different brands use the same lens boards. Interchangability
shouldn't be an issue.

Just don't expect one body to do everything. It's not true in 35mm
or medium format or large format.

Also, getting lenses with 8x10 or greater coverage will cost more but you'll
lose less in fall-off when using movements. You'll lose very little except
at the most distant extremes.

I hope this is helpful and taken in a positive light.

Enjoy,

Collin

"Scott M. Knowles" wrote in message
m...

I picked 125mm and 240mm because the 35mm shift lens and 800m
tilt-shift lens or 85mm f1.7lens are my two most used landscape
lenses, followed by 100mm macro lens, 24mm or 28mm, and 45mm lenses.
This leave a 65-75mm LF lens the next logical choice(?).

Scott,

Just about any camera you are considering, monorail or field, will have no
problems with a 125mm or 240mm lens. Most cameras handle the midrange focal
lengths with ease. The problem comes when you want to go shorter or longer.
Some cameras are especially well suited to wide angle use, others aren't.
Obviously, a camera with a fixed 12" bellows isn't well suited to using long
lenses.

FWIW 65mm (and even 75mm) is seriously wide on 4x5. 90mm is still decently
wide, not too close to your planned 125mm, and easier to use. Take that
with a grain of salt as I'm not personally a big wide angle user. If you're
a big wide angle fan, a 75mm (or wider) may be just your cup of tea. Just
keep in mind the shorter you go the more it will limit your choice of
camera.

I hesitate to recommend a specific camera, as it's such a personal choice.
Little things like the location of controls that might seem logical to one
user might drive another nuts. If you don't think you'll use anything
longer than 240mm, there are a LOT of field cameras that would serve you
well and be reasonably priced. If you plan to go longer, your choices will
be narrowed. The Toho will easily handle a compact 300mm (like the 300mm
Nikkor M or 300mm Fujinon C) or a longer, heavier telephoto. A Canham DLC
or Linhof Technikardan will handle a 450mm Fujinon C without additional
accesories. These are two VERY different (and NOT inexpensive) cameras.
Hence, my reluctance to make a specific recommendation. I can quote specs
all day long, and I can tell you what I like and dislike. In the end, it's
what YOU like and dislike that matters.

Kerry

In article ,
Scott M. Knowles wrote:
The field camera has advantages of portability for hiking, but as
noted, some monorail ones are quite portable, especially if it's the
only camera I take. Are any advantages to a U-shape or L-shape
monorail, the Horseman LE, and the Toyo View 45C or Canham DLC45 for
example?

I picked 125mm and 240mm because the 35mm shift lens and 800m
tilt-shift lens or 85mm f1.7lens are my two most used landscape
lenses, followed by 100mm macro lens, 24mm or 28mm, and 45mm lenses.
This leave a 65-75mm LF lens the next logical choice(?).

I have (and really like) the Canham DLC45, but only you know if you'll
like it.

As someone else suggested, if at all possible you should rent a camera
and a couple of lenses for a week. It will really help you decide
what you like in both cameras and lenses. You may be surprised. Just
because focal lengths in different formats are mathematically related
doesn't mean you'll want to use them the same way.

When I started (also jumping from 35mm) I rented several different
cameras to see what I wanted. I tried a Wisner Traditional (didn't
like it), a Horseman technical camera, a Cambo Wide (very limited
special purpose camera), and a Calumet 45NX monorail (nice, but too
heavy and bulky to lug around). I bought a Bender 4x5 kit (which I
eventually gave to a friend after deciding I was never going to finish
it) and a Toyo metal camera (the old gray painted one that used
Graflex lens boards and had a rotating Graflok back) to use while
building the Bender. The Toyo (which developed a light leak I
couldn't find) was replaced with a Speed Graphic before I finally
settled on the Canham.

All these cameras are different. All of them have people who love
them or hate them. Only you know if you will like using any one of
them.

Don't worry about "slow" lenses. I have a 150mm f/5.6 Caltar II-N and
a 10inch f/6.8 Kodak Commercial Ektar. To my eye the Kodak is much
brighter than the Caltar. I can often compose and rough focus the
Kodak without a darkcloth in light that wouldn't let me do that with
the Caltar.

I'd also suggest that you might want to try a little pinhole
photography. Make a cardboard lens board and mount a pinhole on it.
You can take some test shots with it to see what focal lengths you
really like. If you want to get serious about it you can use Google
to find out about optimizing pinhole diameters for specific focal
lengths.

After using a 75mm fl pinhole for a few years I decided I really liked
the wide angles shots it allowed. Playing around with a bunch of
brass shim stock was a lot cheaper than buying or renting a bunch of
lenses to see what I liked.

I find when using my Minola XK with the waist level viewfinder I have
problems with the upside down and backward view. My brain can't seem
to naturally see the image correctly.

You'll get used to it after a while.

Also, I noticed some have full or partial frame light meters. I use a
Sekonic L358 flash/spot meter but wonder if that would suffice (does
according to some literature). I use it routinely with the shift and
tilt-shift lens since 35mm cameras don't meter accurately when shifted
or tilted much off-center (they're close until the extremes).

That meter should be fine. If you can already get good exposures with
it there no reason to change.

Really dumb question, after you exposed the film and removed the film
holder, how you do remove the film and into what? I have a black
bag, so do you use that (or a really dark, windowless room) to move
the film to a box or what for processing?

I've always used Polaroid or Readyload packets. The advantages are
weight, ability to load in daylight, no dust problems, and you can
take notes on each individual film packet. The disadvantages are cost
and limited film choices.

--
Brian Reynolds | "But in the new approach, as you know,
| the important thing is to understand
http://www.panix.com/~reynolds/ | what you're doing rather than to get
NAR# 54438 | the right answer." -- Tom Lehrer