Starting camera

Folks,

I'm researching my first 4x5 camera (been a 35mm part-time
photographer for ~35 years) for my nature/landscape photography (Mt.
Rainier NP and environs) and city/townscapes. I originally looked at
field cameras after looking at the lenses I would normally want to
use, 105-125mm and 240-300mm. I may add a shorter wide angle and
intermediate lenses later (65-75mm and ~150mm)

Looking at some of the mid-priced field cameras (haven't looked at all
yet) I noticed they won't take #3 shutters for faster longer lens
(240+mm). I like the ease of use and portability of a field camera
(replacing the 35mm system on some hiking trips), but I'm wondering if
the loss of 1+ f-stop in those lenses is worth the difference in a
field camera versus an entry level monorail camera.

So, my questions:

Should I drop the field camera for the monorail (one which fits in a
backpack with other stuff) or live with the slower longer lenses for
the ease of the field camera? My experience in the light loss is from
35mm camera lenses, specifically telephotos in the f2.8 to f8 range,
which is a huge difference trying to focus some scenes.

Would it be better to get an entry level field camera, such as a used
one or the new Toyo CF (w/o back movement) to learn and upgrade later?
I've been using 35mm Perspective Control and Tilt-Shift lenses and a
bellows with some front element control (swing-shift or tilt-shift),
so I'm familar with the front movements, but I noticed in some
applications back controls are a real advantage.

Is a monorail camera too much for starting and learning, or at least
taking longer? I know it's a jump, but doable if taken in steps.

I have other questions, such as film holders, film for learning, etc.,
but they can wait while I sort this out. In the meantime I'm reading
(Steve Simmons "Using the View Camera" and Jim Stones "User's Guide to
View Cameras") and some on-line help and equipment review literature.

Thanks for your time.

--Scott--

Scott M. Knowles wrote:


Should I drop the field camera for the monorail (one which fits in a
backpack with other stuff) or live with the slower longer lenses for
the ease of the field camera? My experience in the light loss is from
35mm camera lenses, specifically telephotos in the f2.8 to f8 range,
which is a huge difference trying to focus some scenes.

Rent/borrow a camera and lens. F/8 outdoors isn't very hard to focus.
Remember you'll likely end up checking focus stopped down all the way to the
taking aperture. That might be F/16 or smaller. Longer lenses seem to be
even easier with smaller f/stops. OTOH I guess that means wide lenses are
worse.



Is a monorail camera too much for starting and learning, or at least
taking longer? I know it's a jump, but doable if taken in steps.

You don't need to use any movement you don't want to. So you can treat the
camera just like a 35mm with no movements if you want. Or you can use
everything it offers.

Nick

There are several articles on our web site that might be helpful

www.viewcamera.com

go to the free articles section

If you are going to be hiking/backpacking you might want to reconsider your
possible preference for lenses with #3 shutters. They will be big and bulky and
heavy. Get one of the screen brighteners to make the image brighter on your gg
and easier to focus. Bossscreen from Bromwell, the Intensescreen from Beattie,
or one from Linhof will be very helpful. This way you can use the smaller
lenses on #1 shutters.

steve simmons

"Scott M. Knowles" wrote in message
m...

Should I drop the field camera for the monorail (one which fits in a
backpack with other stuff) or live with the slower longer lenses for
the ease of the field camera? My experience in the light loss is from
35mm camera lenses, specifically telephotos in the f2.8 to f8 range,
which is a huge difference trying to focus some scenes.

Scott,

First, just because a camera rides on a rail, doesn't mean it's not a field
camera. For example, the Toho and Gowland are both monorails that are meant
to be used in the field. They are also two of the lightest 4x5 cameras
made. Even some heavier monorails, like the Arca Swiss and Linhof
Technikardan are well suited for use in the field. Rather than look at it
as field vs. monorail, consider which lenses you are likely to use (how long
and how short) and then pick the best camera that can handle them easily and
meets you other peronal needs (weight, budget, etc.).

WRT to long lenses in No. 3 shutters... Personally, I try to avoaid them for
any format smaller than 8x10. In long lenses, I have no problem focusing at
f9. In fact, I find it a lot easier to focus and compose a 300mm f9 (or
even 450mm f12.5) than a 75mm f4.5. The longer the lens, the slower I'll
tolerate - especially if it saves me substantial weight, bulk and cost.
I'll even use a 150mm f9 or 200mm f8 when backpacking to save a little
weight.

Examples of excellent long (for 4x5) compact, lightweight lenses include the
240mm f9 Fujinon A, 300mm f9 Nikkor M and 450mm f12.5 Fujinon W. For 4x5
field use, these are my favorites. You can read more about them in the
lightweight lenses section of my large format web site at:

http://www.thalmann.com/largeformat/lightwei.htm

That said, not all lenses in No. 3 shutters weigh a ton - just the fast
ones. Lenses like the 360mm f9 APO Ronar, 450mm f9 Nikkor M and 600mm f11.5
Fujinon C weigh about a pound and a quarter - only about four ounces more
than the typical 210mm f5.6 plasmat in a No. 1 shutter. I still prefer
smaller, lighter lenses where possible, but if your camera has enough
extension, these longer, slower lenses often weigh significantly less than
telephoto designs of comparable focal length. Of course, if you buy a
camera with only 12" of extension, the point is moot. That leads us back to
my first paragraph - figure out what lenses you want to use first, and then
choose a camera to match - regardless of whether or not it rides on a rail.

Kerry

On Wed, 16 Jun 2004 10:56:58 -0700, "Kerry L. Thalmann"
wrote:

"Scott M. Knowles" wrote in message
om...

Should I drop the field camera for the monorail (one which fits in a
backpack with other stuff) or live with the slower longer lenses for
the ease of the field camera? My experience in the light loss is from
35mm camera lenses, specifically telephotos in the f2.8 to f8 range,
which is a huge difference trying to focus some scenes.

Scott,

First, just because a camera rides on a rail, doesn't mean it's not a field
camera. For example, the Toho and Gowland are both monorails that are meant
to be used in the field. They are also two of the lightest 4x5 cameras
made. Even some heavier monorails, like the Arca Swiss and Linhof
Technikardan are well suited for use in the field. Rather than look at it
as field vs. monorail, consider which lenses you are likely to use (how long
and how short) and then pick the best camera that can handle them easily and
meets you other peronal needs (weight, budget, etc.).

WRT to long lenses in No. 3 shutters... Personally, I try to avoaid them for
any format smaller than 8x10. In long lenses, I have no problem focusing at
f9. In fact, I find it a lot easier to focus and compose a 300mm f9 (or
even 450mm f12.5) than a 75mm f4.5. The longer the lens, the slower I'll
tolerate - especially if it saves me substantial weight, bulk and cost.
I'll even use a 150mm f9 or 200mm f8 when backpacking to save a little
weight.

Examples of excellent long (for 4x5) compact, lightweight lenses include the
240mm f9 Fujinon A, 300mm f9 Nikkor M and 450mm f12.5 Fujinon W. For 4x5
field use, these are my favorites. You can read more about them in the
lightweight lenses section of my large format web site at:


But that Fuji 240/f 9 is impossible to find.

I ended up with a 240/5.6 Symmar in a #3 as
my "long" lens and it's a monster compared
to the other two.


rafe b.
http://www.terrapinphoto.com

In article ,
Raphael Bustin wrote:

But that Fuji 240/f 9 is impossible to find.

The question should be where have you looked.
--
LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918

On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 02:49:00 GMT, Gregory W Blank
wrote:

In article ,
Raphael Bustin wrote:

But that Fuji 240/f 9 is impossible to find.

The question should be where have you looked.


All the usual places... I was looking for used,
and... welll... cheap. I checked KEH, Midwest,
Lens & Repro and of course eBay. I think maybe
I found one or two, but the price was substantially
more than I paid for the Symmar.

Used lenses in the 240--270 range seem to
be rare, not sure why.


rafe b.
http://www.terrapinphoto.com

In article ,
Raphael Bustin wrote:


All the usual places... I was looking for used,
and... welll... cheap. I checked KEH, Midwest,
Lens & Repro and of course eBay. I think maybe
I found one or two, but the price was substantially
more than I paid for the Symmar.

Used lenses in the 240--270 range seem to
be rare, not sure why.

Lens and Repro will usually have what your looking for
the others have less stock on average in LF lenses.

I got mine from L&R, as well as a variety of others.
We don't talk about cost on used lenses ;-) Unless
of course its actually cheaper to buy new. Badger Graphics
could possibly help in that respect.

My 240 "A" covers 8x10 which is what I got it for, I use
it on both my 4x5 and eight x ten.
--
LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918

"Raphael Bustin" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 02:49:00 GMT, Gregory W Blank
wrote:

In article ,
Raphael Bustin wrote:

But that Fuji 240/f 9 is impossible to find.

The question should be where have you looked.


All the usual places... I was looking for used,
and... welll... cheap. I checked KEH, Midwest,
Lens & Repro and of course eBay. I think maybe
I found one or two, but the price was substantially
more than I paid for the Symmar.

I just checked the MPEX web site and they have a 240mm f9 Fujinon A listed
in 9 condition for $399. I'm not sure if they still have it, or if it's EBC
multicoated or the older single coated style. They also have a new one
listed at $749 - Badger Graphic sells it new for $750. I see them
occasionally on eBay, later multicoated samples in excellent++/mint- minus
condition usually go for between $550 and $600.

Even brand spanking new, it's pretty affordable for a lens of this quality,
focal length and coverage. It's less than 1/2 the price of a new 240mm APO
Sironar-S (yeah, I know applesranges). Schneider doesn't offer a 240mm
focal length in their current APO-Symmar-L line. A new 240mm Nikkor-W will
run $975 and a 240mm Caltar II-N is $1099. One other alternative I forgot
to mention is the 250mm f6.3 Fujinon CM-W. It's also $975 new, and since
it's in a Copal No. 1 shutter, the size (67mm filter size) and weight (510g)
is in the same ballpark as the typical 210mm f5.6 plasmat. Personally, I'll
still take the 240mm f9 Fujinon A even though it's a full stop slower - it's
also less than 1/2 the weight.

Used lenses in the 240--270 range seem to
be rare, not sure why.

They're sort of 'tweeners. 210mm is very common for 4x5 and is also
considered normal on 5x7. 300mm is normal on 8x10. Most of the 240mm lens
cover 8x10, but don't leave much for movements - and in a Copal No. 3
shutter, they are rather big and bulky for 4x5 or 5x7 use. Probably why
Schneider dropped the 240mm focal length when they announced their
APO-Symmar-L line-up.

Kerry

On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 10:33:09 -0700, "Kerry L. Thalmann"
wrote:

"Raphael Bustin" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 02:49:00 GMT, Gregory W Blank
wrote:

In article ,
Raphael Bustin wrote:

But that Fuji 240/f 9 is impossible to find.

The question should be where have you looked.


All the usual places... I was looking for used,
and... welll... cheap. I checked KEH, Midwest,
Lens & Repro and of course eBay. I think maybe
I found one or two, but the price was substantially
more than I paid for the Symmar.

I just checked the MPEX web site and they have a 240mm f9 Fujinon A listed
in 9 condition for $399. I'm not sure if they still have it, or if it's EBC
multicoated or the older single coated style. They also have a new one
listed at $749 - Badger Graphic sells it new for $750. I see them
occasionally on eBay, later multicoated samples in excellent++/mint- minus
condition usually go for between $550 and $600.

Even brand spanking new, it's pretty affordable for a lens of this quality,
focal length and coverage. It's less than 1/2 the price of a new 240mm APO
Sironar-S (yeah, I know applesranges). Schneider doesn't offer a 240mm
focal length in their current APO-Symmar-L line. A new 240mm Nikkor-W will
run $975 and a 240mm Caltar II-N is $1099. One other alternative I forgot
to mention is the 250mm f6.3 Fujinon CM-W. It's also $975 new, and since
it's in a Copal No. 1 shutter, the size (67mm filter size) and weight (510g)
is in the same ballpark as the typical 210mm f5.6 plasmat. Personally, I'll
still take the 240mm f9 Fujinon A even though it's a full stop slower - it's
also less than 1/2 the weight.

Used lenses in the 240--270 range seem to
be rare, not sure why.

They're sort of 'tweeners. 210mm is very common for 4x5 and is also
considered normal on 5x7. 300mm is normal on 8x10. Most of the 240mm lens
cover 8x10, but don't leave much for movements - and in a Copal No. 3
shutter, they are rather big and bulky for 4x5 or 5x7 use. Probably why
Schneider dropped the 240mm focal length when they announced their
APO-Symmar-L line-up.


Hello, Kerry,

I'm mildly bummed to hear that you found the
lens for $399. What the hey. Live and learn G.

My, but that Copal 3 is a big'un. Next to the
camera itself, the Symmar is the largest &
heaviest object in my LF kit.

I used it last weekend to photograph some
marshy foliage... images are still latent, but
the poison ivy is fully developed.

I've been truly impressed by the Nikon 90/f8,
purchased per your recommendation.

Sometimes when I use it, there's a voice in
my head saying, "I'm not worthy..."
It feels sinful and indulgent to own this lens.


rafe b.
http://www.terrapinphoto.com