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#21
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Terry Hollis wrote:
Wolfgang Weisselberg wrote: Terry Hollis wrote: I have the Nikon Coolpix 5000 and the Canon SLR 300d. For action shots the 300d is the automatic choice but for static low light shots, the 5000 wins hands down. That's very interesting, I would have thought it to be the other way round. What does the 5000 offer on static low light shots that the 300d does not? The 300d is an SLR and as such you must use a tripod in low light conditions, I have shot my DSLR in low light without tripod and had no special problems down to 1/30, even with tele-lenses (with IS). for a traveller in Asia, a tripod is not an option. Not being an Asian nor knowing the circumstances there, I cannot comment on that. The CP 5000 has a reticulating LCD view-finder and I have found that in low light situations I can always find something to support the camera, a wall, rubbish bin or whatever and in spite of the awkward position the camera may be in, I can still get a good view of the view-finder. With the SLR the need to have your eye in a particular place makes it unsuitable for this rough and ready type of support. That is true enough. But I have often used my elbow on something stabilizing larger lenses, works most of the time for me. Your environment is obviously different. -Wolfgang |
#22
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Terry Hollis wrote:
Jan Böhme wrote: Righto. But you don't think that the fact that the 300D has some tree stops more of usable sensor sensitivity compensates a little for its lack of articulated viewfinder? I don't know how you arrive at 3 stops, the 300d does 1600 ISO and the CP5000 does 800 ISO. But how noisy is the image at ISO800 with the CP5000? Is it usable? What ISO in the CP5000 compares with the 300d's ISO 1600? The standard lens for the Canon has an aperture of 3.5 and the CP5000 has an aperture of 2.8, maybe a 1/2 stop advantage to the Canon with a lens that is close to usless for touring. It obviously depends a lot on the lens(es) you prefer. If you use a 50mm f/1.4 or f/1.8 you're in a different position to the kit lens. Add to that the wide-angle lens accessory for the Nikon being equivalent to 19mm (in 35mm terms) and the Canon at 28mm is not in the same race. No, you'd use a 10-22mm wide angle for the Canon, for 16-35mm 35mm-equivalent. :-) Yes, it costs a lot more, and the photos you take with the camera you did not buy (being broke is not fun) are, ah, rare. -Wolfgang |
#23
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On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 17:28:28 +1300, "Terry Hollis"
wrote: Jan Böhme wrote: On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 04:59:49 +1300, "Terry Hollis" wrote: The CP 5000 has a reticulating LCD view-finder and I have found that in low light situations I can always find something to support the camera, a wall, rubbish bin or whatever and in spite of the awkward position the camera may be in, I can still get a good view of the view-finder. With the SLR the need to have your eye in a particular place makes it unsuitable for this rough and ready type of support. Righto. But you don't think that the fact that the 300D has some tree stops more of usable sensor sensitivity compensates a little for its lack of articulated viewfinder? I don't know how you arrive at 3 stops, the 300d does 1600 ISO and the CP5000 does 800 ISO. The key word in the sentence above was "usable", awkward as it was. There are lots of pics on the net to attest that the noise level of a 300D at 1600ISO is reasonable, and that the noise level at ISO 800 is quite good. I'm not all that familiar with the CP5000 in particular, but a general rule for point-and-shoots seems to be that the ISO800 level is so noisy as to be entirely useless, and the ISO400 is clearly worse than the 1600 of 300D. I arrived at three stops by equating the noise at ISO 300D at 1600 with a point-and-shoot noise at ISO200, and the ISO800 noise of 300D with the ISO100 noise of a standard point-and-shoot. The standard lens for the Canon has an aperture of 3.5 and the CP5000 has an aperture of 2.8, maybe a 1/2 stop advantage to the Canon with a lens that is close to usless for touring. If you want to shoot low light w/o tripod, of course you'll want a fast lens. There are seven Canon lenses faster than 2.0 at my online photo dealer's. If you must have a zoom, there is a very good 16-35 zoom, (equal to 26-56 for a 35 mm camera) at f 2.8. If you want longer focal length, then there is for example the Sigma 24-105 mm at f. 2.8 - 4.0 at a very affordable price. However, I'd suggest that what you really want is neither the CP5000 nor a DSLR, but a modern point-and-soot with the articulated viewfinder that you like, plus image stabilisation. _That_ will clearly give you at least two more stops, everything else being equal. Jan Böhme Korrekta personuppgifter är att betrakta som journalistik. Felaktigheter utgör naturligtvis skönlitteratur. |
#24
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Wolfgang Weisselberg wrote:
Terry Hollis wrote: Wolfgang Weisselberg wrote: Terry Hollis wrote: I have the Nikon Coolpix 5000 and the Canon SLR 300d. For action shots the 300d is the automatic choice but for static low light shots, the 5000 wins hands down. That's very interesting, I would have thought it to be the other way round. What does the 5000 offer on static low light shots that the 300d does not? The 300d is an SLR and as such you must use a tripod in low light conditions, I have shot my DSLR in low light without tripod and had no special problems down to 1/30, even with tele-lenses (with IS). I think I see the problem here, you think 1/30 is a low speed; try 2 seconds. for a traveller in Asia, a tripod is not an option. Not being an Asian nor knowing the circumstances there, I cannot comment on that. Well HongKong is all buses and subways, up to four flights of stairs, it's day after day of walking; the less you carry the more you are likely to go looking for those good shots. The CP 5000 has a reticulating LCD view-finder and I have found that in low light situations I can always find something to support the camera, a wall, rubbish bin or whatever and in spite of the awkward position the camera may be in, I can still get a good view of the view-finder. With the SLR the need to have your eye in a particular place makes it unsuitable for this rough and ready type of support. That is true enough. But I have often used my elbow on something stabilizing larger lenses, works most of the time for me. Your environment is obviously different. -Wolfgang As I have said before, large lens are not the issue, a wide angle lens is needed to shoot the tallest building in the world and that is in Taipai and when you do it at night a long exposure is inevitable. -- Regards - Terry Hollis, Auckland, New Zealand replace "nospam" with "terry.hollis" to reply |
#25
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Wolfgang Weisselberg wrote:
Terry Hollis wrote: Jan Böhme wrote: Righto. But you don't think that the fact that the 300D has some tree stops more of usable sensor sensitivity compensates a little for its lack of articulated viewfinder? I don't know how you arrive at 3 stops, the 300d does 1600 ISO and the CP5000 does 800 ISO. But how noisy is the image at ISO800 with the CP5000? Is it usable? What ISO in the CP5000 compares with the 300d's ISO 1600? That's fair comment, I haven't needed to use 1600 ISO with the 300d but it is certainly good at 400 ISO. The CP5000 is poor at 800 ISO so I rarely go above 200 ISO with it, the point is, you don't have to because longer exposures are possible. The standard lens for the Canon has an aperture of 3.5 and the CP5000 has an aperture of 2.8, maybe a 1/2 stop advantage to the Canon with a lens that is close to usless for touring. It obviously depends a lot on the lens(es) you prefer. If you use a 50mm f/1.4 or f/1.8 you're in a different position to the kit lens. I have no use at all for a 50mm 1.4 lens when traveling, I need w/a. Add to that the wide-angle lens accessory for the Nikon being equivalent to 19mm (in 35mm terms) and the Canon at 28mm is not in the same race. No, you'd use a 10-22mm wide angle for the Canon, for 16-35mm 35mm-equivalent. :-) Yes, it costs a lot more, and the photos you take with the camera you did not buy (being broke is not fun) are, ah, rare. ???? I already have the 300d and I left it home for my trip to Asia. No one in their right mind would buy that sort of lens for a 300d. -Wolfgang -- Regards - Terry Hollis, Auckland, New Zealand replace "nospam" with "terry.hollis" to reply |
#26
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Terry Hollis wrote:
Wolfgang Weisselberg wrote: Terry Hollis wrote: Jan Böhme wrote: I don't know how you arrive at 3 stops, the 300d does 1600 ISO and the CP5000 does 800 ISO. [...] What ISO in the CP5000 compares with the 300d's ISO 1600? That's fair comment, I haven't needed to use 1600 ISO with the 300d but it is certainly good at 400 ISO. The CP5000 is poor at 800 ISO so I rarely go above 200 ISO with it, the point is, you don't have to because longer exposures are possible. So we have the 3 stops right there, and while the larger, heavier and more expensive 300D uses higer ISO, you steady the CP5000 at ISO 200 for longer exposures. Given the circumstances (e.g. size, weight, cost, no tripod possible) you are right that the 300D (without even more expensive IS lenses) offers nothing for night shots. It obviously depends a lot on the lens(es) you prefer. If you use a 50mm f/1.4 or f/1.8 you're in a different position to the kit lens. I have no use at all for a 50mm 1.4 lens when traveling, I need w/a. Each photograper is obviously different. So use the 24mm f/1.4, the 28mm f/1.8 or the 35 f/1.4 if you need fast w/a glass :-) (Yes, I know, I am spending *your* money rather freely.) No, you'd use a 10-22mm wide angle for the Canon, for 16-35mm 35mm-equivalent. :-) Yes, it costs a lot more, and the photos you take with the camera you did not buy (being broke is not fun) are, ah, rare. ???? I meant that all that glass is expensive and most people don't have an unlimited budget. So a not-quite-as-good solution within your budget is much better than a perfect, but unpayable one. I already have the 300d and I left it home for my trip to Asia. No one in their right mind would buy that sort of lens for a 300d. Well, the lens only fits on a 300D, the new Rebel XT and the 20D, since it's an EF-S lens, so Canon seems to differ. -Wolfgang |
#27
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Terry Hollis wrote:
Wolfgang Weisselberg wrote: Terry Hollis wrote: Wolfgang Weisselberg wrote: Terry Hollis wrote: I have shot my DSLR in low light without tripod and had no special problems down to 1/30, even with tele-lenses (with IS). I think I see the problem here, you think 1/30 is a low speed; try 2 seconds. I have hand-shot my Contax SL300RT* for 8 seconds. Fun to do a few times but not relaxing. for a traveller in Asia, a tripod is not an option. Not being an Asian nor knowing the circumstances there, I cannot comment on that. Well HongKong is all buses and subways, up to four flights of stairs, it's day after day of walking; the less you carry the more you are likely to go looking for those good shots. Ok, that's your choice and it's obviously valid. I still carry a tripod when I'm out shooting, but that's me. a wide angle lens is needed to shoot the tallest building in the world and that is in Taipai and when you do it at night a long exposure is inevitable. Yes. I'd see if I could get a shift objective for that (to avoid falling lines), too. And a tripod. :-) -Wolfgang |
#28
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Jan Böhme wrote:
On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 17:28:28 +1300, "Terry Hollis" wrote: Jan Böhme wrote: On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 04:59:49 +1300, "Terry Hollis" wrote: The CP 5000 has a reticulating LCD view-finder and I have found that in low light situations I can always find something to support the camera, a wall, rubbish bin or whatever and in spite of the awkward position the camera may be in, I can still get a good view of the view-finder. With the SLR the need to have your eye in a particular place makes it unsuitable for this rough and ready type of support. Righto. But you don't think that the fact that the 300D has some tree stops more of usable sensor sensitivity compensates a little for its lack of articulated viewfinder? I don't know how you arrive at 3 stops, the 300d does 1600 ISO and the CP5000 does 800 ISO. The key word in the sentence above was "usable", awkward as it was. There are lots of pics on the net to attest that the noise level of a 300D at 1600ISO is reasonable, and that the noise level at ISO 800 is quite good. I'm not all that familiar with the CP5000 in particular, but a general rule for point-and-shoots seems to be that the ISO800 level is so noisy as to be entirely useless, and the ISO400 is clearly worse than the 1600 of 300D. I arrived at three stops by equating the noise at ISO 300D at 1600 with a point-and-shoot noise at ISO200, and the ISO800 noise of 300D with the ISO100 noise of a standard point-and-shoot. Ok that rational might be fairer but I wouldn't equate the CP5000 with your "standard point-and-shoot". The 5mP sensor in the CP5000 is the same size as the one in the later CP8400 and may be less susceptable to noise. The standard lens for the Canon has an aperture of 3.5 and the CP5000 has an aperture of 2.8, maybe a 1/2 stop advantage to the Canon with a lens that is close to usless for touring. If you want to shoot low light w/o tripod, of course you'll want a fast lens. There are seven Canon lenses faster than 2.0 at my online photo dealer's. If you must have a zoom, there is a very good 16-35 zoom, (equal to 26-56 for a 35 mm camera) at f 2.8. If you want longer focal length, then there is for example the Sigma 24-105 mm at f. 2.8 - 4.0 at a very affordable price. It's not a matter of "If you want to shoot low light w/o tripod" it's having something available at the time and place, when a photo opportunity crops up in a situation where you depend on your escorts to show you around and speak the local language. If you don't know where you are going, you need versatile equipment that will not require your escorts to wait while you are forever setting up the shot. However, I'd suggest that what you really want is neither the CP5000 nor a DSLR, but a modern point-and-soot with the articulated viewfinder that you like, plus image stabilisation. _That_ will clearly give you at least two more stops, everything else being equal. When they make a better camera for the for my purposes, I will upgrade, in the meantime the CP5000 and accessories is doing a very good job. Jan Böhme Korrekta personuppgifter är att betrakta som journalistik. Felaktigheter utgör naturligtvis skönlitteratur. -- Regards - Terry Hollis, Auckland, New Zealand replace "nospam" with "terry.hollis" to reply |
#29
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Wolfgang Weisselberg wrote:
Terry Hollis wrote: Wolfgang Weisselberg wrote: Terry Hollis wrote: Jan Böhme wrote: I don't know how you arrive at 3 stops, the 300d does 1600 ISO and the CP5000 does 800 ISO. [...] What ISO in the CP5000 compares with the 300d's ISO 1600? That's fair comment, I haven't needed to use 1600 ISO with the 300d but it is certainly good at 400 ISO. The CP5000 is poor at 800 ISO so I rarely go above 200 ISO with it, the point is, you don't have to because longer exposures are possible. So we have the 3 stops right there, and while the larger, heavier and more expensive 300D uses higer ISO, you steady the CP5000 at ISO 200 for longer exposures. Given the circumstances (e.g. size, weight, cost, no tripod possible) you are right that the 300D (without even more expensive IS lenses) offers nothing for night shots. It obviously depends a lot on the lens(es) you prefer. If you use a 50mm f/1.4 or f/1.8 you're in a different position to the kit lens. I have no use at all for a 50mm 1.4 lens when traveling, I need w/a. Each photograper is obviously different. So use the 24mm f/1.4, the 28mm f/1.8 or the 35 f/1.4 if you need fast w/a glass :-) (Yes, I know, I am spending *your* money rather freely.) These lens do not compete with the CP5000 when fitted with the .68 W/A accessory which gives 19mm-57mm zoom. No, you'd use a 10-22mm wide angle for the Canon, for 16-35mm 35mm-equivalent. :-) Yes, it costs a lot more, and the photos you take with the camera you did not buy (being broke is not fun) are, ah, rare. ???? I meant that all that glass is expensive and most people don't have an unlimited budget. So a not-quite-as-good solution within your budget is much better than a perfect, but unpayable one. I already have the 300d and I left it home for my trip to Asia. No one in their right mind would buy that sort of lens for a 300d. Well, the lens only fits on a 300D, the new Rebel XT and the 20D, since it's an EF-S lens, so Canon seems to differ. -Wolfgang If you know where you are going and exactly what you will need when you get there, you can make a case for the 300d, but when I am on tour and depend on my excorts, the CP5000 meets my needs. I had a situation where I went to an exhibition of jade products, perfect for the CP5000 I thought, after I arrived I found that the indigenous people of Taiwan were giving dance performances, I missed recording that event because I had left my video camera behind. -- Regards - Terry Hollis, Auckland, New Zealand replace "nospam" with "terry.hollis" to reply |
#30
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Terry Hollis wrote:
[] I had a situation where I went to an exhibition of jade products, perfect for the CP5000 I thought, after I arrived I found that the indigenous people of Taiwan were giving dance performances, I missed recording that event because I had left my video camera behind. The 8400 does acceptable videos that would have captured the atmosphere of the moment! I'm not a video enthusiast, but a couple of three second video bursts certainly added to a journey I made recently. Cheers, David |
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