Darkroom classes

In article ,
Whisky-dave wrote:

Or, they have. Vinyl records are experiencing a resurgence, too.

sales of vinyl lps were 1.4% of total album sales in 2013.

Quite a number of those are from old school bands who want a physical
object

in their hands, even a CD doesn;t cut it with them.

actually it's indie bands.

It;s those that want it, not just teh bands.
The beatles are hardly independant.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005NJ9CHK/

the beatles recently released their music on the itunes store, after
many years of waiting.

the box set is $149, less than half the price of the above.

vinyl is dead. and dead doesn't mean completely zero.

Also some certain typrsws
of musioc prefer vynll for 'scatching purposes even though you can buy CD
players that can do similar it's just not the same.

djs use computers now, regardless of which type of music.

They use what the prefer. I know some DJ and they still cart their vinyl
around and they don;t scratch but prefer vinyl.

then you must know the only djs on the planet who do that.

It's like leicas if you don;t see them they obviously arent; made sold or
used.

leicas are a niche camera that sells to pretentious photographers who
think the name means something. it doesn't, especially these days.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Technics-M...K2-Turntables-
and-SHDJ1200-Mixer-/151333487591

that has 0 bids. it's not exactly a hot item, is it?

for every one of those sold (assuming it sells, which it probably
won't), there are thousands of copies of dj software sold, and for a
*lot* less money too.

here's one such app:
http://www.algoriddim.com/

$4.99 for ipad and $19.99 for mac, and it links to spotify for access
to 20 million songs.

let's see someone cart around 20 million albums *and* the above system.
good luck on that.

the days of manually scratching with records or cds are *long* gone.

yeah right. Whn did yuo last go to a night club.

i frequently am where there are djs and not a single one has used vinyl
in the past 25 years. not one.

25 years ago they used cds and now it's all mp3/aac on a laptop and
occasionally even an ipad. it's *far* easier to dj with a computer than
it ever was with vinyl or cds. you don't *need* to scratch anymore
because the computer does that for you.

plus, records and cds take up way too much space. a 2 pound ultrabook
that slips into a jacket pocket can hold tens of thousands of songs, or
it can access many more in the cloud. who wants to carry all that on
vinyl or cd? nobody. who even owns what's available in the cloud?
nobody.

I doubt hasslblad or even leica have more than a 1.4% share of the
photogrphy market.

they never had a huge share.

They can survive with a small market share.

so what? vinyl is still niche. it was 1.4% of sales last year. that's
nothing.

vinyl once was king, but those days are *long* gone. same for video
tape. cds/dvds are on their way out too.

vinyl still around and still made I don't think tape has had teh same appeal.

http://www.vinylcuts.com/english/preise2.php3
Matalica re-released their old stuff non vinyl a couile of years ago

http://www.metallica.com/product-categories/vinyl.asp

NIN, The Ramones .......

http://www.opeth.com/home/news/item/...e-to-pre-order

Amonst others.

for every vinyl copy sold there are thousands of copies sold on
mp3/aac, or played on spotify, pandora, etc, which is where it's at
now.

plus, metallica has their heads up their asses about digital anyway.

digital media is the future.

The futures already here.

exactly, and vinyl is dead.

In article ,
Whisky-dave wrote:

If people are willing to pay money to learn something then why not let
them.

they can do whatever they want but they'll learn more with digital.

They'll learn less about photography, which is all about using light as the
medium.

they'll learn *much* more about photography with digital than they ever
would have with film.

instant feedback alone is a huge plus to learning, plus the cost is $0
with digital so they're more likely to try stuff they wouldn't have
otherwise.

the problem is that the original article was about high schools and
colleges teaching obsolete skills to students who have no choice.

If no one chooses to do the course they tend not to run courses where no one
aplies for them. When I was at college they tried to get me to learn
technical german for my HNC, I said along with others that we're not
intrested, and with ZERO take up the course was cancelled.
A friend I used to 'lend' photoshot to has been acredited by adobe, some
qualification I guess, and she still teaches darkroom technigues.
People still learn how to play the pianio too despite all the modren music
technology.

playing the piano is not the same as a wet darkroom that has been
replaced.

Doing film photography is about as useful as being able to change a wheel
on a modern car.

it's more like learning how to repair a mechanical typewriter.

I'd say a person that can reapir a mechanical typewriter is far more skilled
than a person that 'repairs' a computer.

those are different skills, and fixing a computer is *far* more complex
than any mechanical typewriter ever could be.

mechanical typewriters are handy where you have no power or when you don;t
want to be hacked into. Never heard of a mechanical typewriter having a virus
problem, other than perhaps being sneezed over.

how often does someone want to type when there's no power? and how
often does it go out anyway? how are they even going to see the
typewriter without any lights? or is typing only allowed during bright
daylight?

laptops have batteries, so there's no issue even in a power outage.

In article ,
Whisky-dave wrote:

...and yet the B&H catalog arrives in my mailbox regularly.

I still get paper catlogues, less than I used to but teh suplies think that
if a studetn sees a catalogue on a shelf they might use it for purchasing.

they'd sooner use it to tear out the pages to pack an item they just
sold on ebay.

I doubt they'd do this if it werent profitable.

they certainly don't do it for sales. it's advertising.

In the same way that sony, coca-cola all have large adds in picadilly circus
and other places ro remind us that they exist but at about 50k a year to have
them top me seems a waste as I'm unlikey to forget sony of coca-cola, but
apparently those companies say 'we' need reminding.

more advertising.

they're one of the few and it's a complete waste of trees and the
postage to mail them out.

That's their decision.

it is, and a stupid one.

mine goes straight to the landfill. i don't even look at it.

Pathetic you SHOULD put it in a re-cycle bin.

there aren't any near here.

it's *much* easier to check their website as well as other websites for
product information and prices, which is *much* more up to date anyway.

It's easier for me to delete an email than put a catalogue in the bin.
with 10s of emails a day I might even decide it's junk/spam.

who said anything about email?

if someone wants to buy something, they'll go to the usual web sites,
order it, and it shows up in a couple of days (possible less in some
cases).

if you think someone is going to leaf through a paper catalog and then
call to order, you're living in the past. it's *much* easier to order
it online.

I get pizza leaflets through my door almost everyday.

any coupons?

keh still sends out catalogs, which is really dumb because their
inventory is usually quantity one and by the time the catalog arrives,
a lot of what's in it has already been sold or never even made it into
the catalog in the first place.

Gig booking on-line is getting to be a risky business and gigs can be sold
out ion 15mions by fraudstars bulk buying, I doubt they'd achive that as
easily by the old post system where you had to wait outside teh venue to sell
your ticket.

Now componies buy them online within a minute of it going on sale and
re-sellign at massive markups.
Check out the cost of a £40 kate bush ticket 15min after they went on sale.

there has always been scalping and always will be scalping. it's called
supply and demand.

In article , Tony Cooper
wrote:

they'll learn *much* more about photography with digital than they ever
would have with film.

instant feedback alone is a huge plus to learning, plus the cost is $0
with digital so they're more likely to try stuff they wouldn't have
otherwise.

I wish my cost of converting from film cameras to digital cameras had
been $0.

students don't need to convert.

Or, that my continuing cost in using a digital camera was
closer to $0.

the cost to take a photo in digital is $0.

In article , Tony Cooper
wrote:

The newspaper that was delivered to my house yesterday was full of
advertising supplements. The idiots who paid for the cost of those
advertisements actually thought they would generate sales. They
shoulda checked with nospam.

the paper newspapers are also going away. it's nearly all online now.

companies also spend more money on online ads than paper ads, and
they're a lot more effective and trackable too.

again, people don't buy out of a b&h paper catalog. they buy online,
possibly in response to an online ad but more likely because of a
deliberate search for a product.

In article , Tony Cooper
wrote:

they'll learn *much* more about photography with digital than they ever
would have with film.

instant feedback alone is a huge plus to learning, plus the cost is $0
with digital so they're more likely to try stuff they wouldn't have
otherwise.

I wish my cost of converting from film cameras to digital cameras had
been $0.

students don't need to convert.

Where do they get the digital camera, lenses, and all the rest of the
kit for $0?

who said they get the camera and lenses for $0?

however, total cost for digital equipment is less than film so that's
yet another savings.

Or, that my continuing cost in using a digital camera was
closer to $0.

the cost to take a photo in digital is $0.

So no one adds a new bag, a new lens, or software? No one buys a
computer or monitor? Zero cost to be digital photographer?

who doesn't have a computer?

it costs *nothing* to shoot pictures all day long, trying all sorts of
things and learning from it.

On 6/23/2014 12:13 PM, nospam wrote:
In article , Stephen
wrote:

With digital, the files would be lost once the person loses interest
in keeping the files up to date & accessible. Assuming the storage
medium even lasts. Digital needs a cpu, software, a display and
something to read the medium the digital file is on.

nonsense. film needs low humidity storage and there are no backups.
once they're damaged, they're *gone*.

The recommended storage conditions for digital media is the same. Once
digital files are damaged, they're gone also.

nonsense.

first of all, storing digital images does not need low humidity or out
of sunlight as does film. where do you come up with such idiocy?

typical hard drives can be stored between -40º to 65º c. film would
never last in those conditions.

So all those photographs found in the Antarctica didn't survive...

what photographs are those?

*lots* of film photos have been lost, and probably more than digital
because most people don't take care of their negatives, which means the
prints (if they still have those) are the only copies.

second, digital can have unlimited 100% identical backup so even if
there is damage, there is never any loss...

If there is damage, it isn't a 100% identical copy.

if there is damage you trash it and use one of the backups. no big
deal. that's what backups are *for*.

plus, the chances of a non-100% copy are *extremely* low anyway.

you're grasping at straws.

meanwhile, countless negatives and slides have been lost to mold, fire,
flooding and even just fading. you don't even need to copy it. it
deteriorates on its own!

You can 'backup' film to another film.

not without a loss, you can't.

*any* copy of a film image has a generational loss. this *cannot* be
avoided

not so with digital, where every copy is 100% identical to the original
and they can be in more than one place too.

Practically all digital cameras default to saving in jpeg, it suffers
from generational loss every time its saved after editing.

easy solution, don't resave the original jpeg and better yet, adopt a
non-destructive workflow which is trivial to do with modern software.

you're also ignoring the fact that there is a guaranteed generational
loss for film.

digital will outlast any physical media, with unlimited numbers of
backups that can be anywhere in the world, so no risk of natural
disaster damaging anything.

Who has multiple backups all over the world?

lots of people do.

anyone who uses any of the cloud storage services or photo sharing
services has multiple redundant backups scattered across multiple data
centers.

Great idea to backup to places that can disappear at any time.

google, apple, amazon, yahoo, etc. aren't going anywhere any time soon.


The financial expert, with an unfailable sense of prescience speaks.





--
PeterN

On 6/23/2014 12:13 PM, nospam wrote:
In article ,
Whisky-dave wrote:

Or, they have. Vinyl records are experiencing a resurgence, too.

sales of vinyl lps were 1.4% of total album sales in 2013.

Quite a number of those are from old school bands who want a physical
object

in their hands, even a CD doesn;t cut it with them.

actually it's indie bands.

It;s those that want it, not just teh bands.
The beatles are hardly independant.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005NJ9CHK/

the beatles recently released their music on the itunes store, after
many years of waiting.

the box set is $149, less than half the price of the above.

vinyl is dead. and dead doesn't mean completely zero.

Also some certain typrsws
of musioc prefer vynll for 'scatching purposes even though you can buy CD
players that can do similar it's just not the same.

djs use computers now, regardless of which type of music.

They use what the prefer. I know some DJ and they still cart their vinyl
around and they don;t scratch but prefer vinyl.

then you must know the only djs on the planet who do that.

It's like leicas if you don;t see them they obviously arent; made sold or
used.

leicas are a niche camera that sells to pretentious photographers who
think the name means something. it doesn't, especially these days.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Technics-M...K2-Turntables-
and-SHDJ1200-Mixer-/151333487591

that has 0 bids. it's not exactly a hot item, is it?

for every one of those sold (assuming it sells, which it probably
won't), there are thousands of copies of dj software sold, and for a
*lot* less money too.

here's one such app:
http://www.algoriddim.com/

$4.99 for ipad and $19.99 for mac, and it links to spotify for access
to 20 million songs.

let's see someone cart around 20 million albums *and* the above system.
good luck on that.

the days of manually scratching with records or cds are *long* gone.

yeah right. Whn did yuo last go to a night club.

i frequently am where there are djs and not a single one has used vinyl
in the past 25 years. not one.

25 years ago they used cds and now it's all mp3/aac on a laptop and
occasionally even an ipad. it's *far* easier to dj with a computer than
it ever was with vinyl or cds. you don't *need* to scratch anymore
because the computer does that for you.

plus, records and cds take up way too much space. a 2 pound ultrabook
that slips into a jacket pocket can hold tens of thousands of songs, or
it can access many more in the cloud. who wants to carry all that on
vinyl or cd? nobody. who even owns what's available in the cloud?
nobody.

I doubt hasslblad or even leica have more than a 1.4% share of the
photogrphy market.

they never had a huge share.

They can survive with a small market share.

so what? vinyl is still niche. it was 1.4% of sales last year. that's
nothing.

vinyl once was king, but those days are *long* gone. same for video
tape. cds/dvds are on their way out too.

vinyl still around and still made I don't think tape has had teh same appeal.

http://www.vinylcuts.com/english/preise2.php3
Matalica re-released their old stuff non vinyl a couile of years ago

http://www.metallica.com/product-categories/vinyl.asp

NIN, The Ramones .......

http://www.opeth.com/home/news/item/...e-to-pre-order

Amonst others.

for every vinyl copy sold there are thousands of copies sold on
mp3/aac, or played on spotify, pandora, etc, which is where it's at
now.

plus, metallica has their heads up their asses about digital anyway.

digital media is the future.

The futures already here.

exactly, and vinyl is dead.

Digital is on the way out. Quantum is on the way in.

--
PeterN

On 6/23/2014 12:13 PM, nospam wrote:
In article ,
Whisky-dave wrote:

...and yet the B&H catalog arrives in my mailbox regularly.

I still get paper catlogues, less than I used to but teh suplies think that
if a studetn sees a catalogue on a shelf they might use it for purchasing.

they'd sooner use it to tear out the pages to pack an item they just
sold on ebay.

I doubt they'd do this if it werent profitable.

they certainly don't do it for sales. it's advertising.

In the same way that sony, coca-cola all have large adds in picadilly circus
and other places ro remind us that they exist but at about 50k a year to have
them top me seems a waste as I'm unlikey to forget sony of coca-cola, but
apparently those companies say 'we' need reminding.

more advertising.

they're one of the few and it's a complete waste of trees and the
postage to mail them out.

That's their decision.

it is, and a stupid one.


Are yu speaking as a financial expert, or financial adviser, or business
expert.

mine goes straight to the landfill. i don't even look at it.

Pathetic you SHOULD put it in a re-cycle bin.

there aren't any near here.

As a citizen with a public duty, you should put one up.


it's *much* easier to check their website as well as other websites for
product information and prices, which is *much* more up to date anyway.

It's easier for me to delete an email than put a catalogue in the bin.
with 10s of emails a day I might even decide it's junk/spam.

who said anything about email?

if someone wants to buy something, they'll go to the usual web sites,
order it, and it shows up in a couple of days (possible less in some
cases).

if you think someone is going to leaf through a paper catalog and then
call to order, you're living in the past. it's *much* easier to order
it online.

I get pizza leaflets through my door almost everyday.

any coupons?

keh still sends out catalogs, which is really dumb because their
inventory is usually quantity one and by the time the catalog arrives,
a lot of what's in it has already been sold or never even made it into
the catalog in the first place.

Gig booking on-line is getting to be a risky business and gigs can be sold
out ion 15mions by fraudstars bulk buying, I doubt they'd achive that as
easily by the old post system where you had to wait outside teh venue to sell
your ticket.

Now componies buy them online within a minute of it going on sale and
re-sellign at massive markups.
Check out the cost of a £40 kate bush ticket 15min after they went on sale.

there has always been scalping and always will be scalping. it's called
supply and demand.



--
PeterN

On 6/23/2014 1:19 PM, Tony Cooper wrote:
On Mon, 23 Jun 2014 12:13:43 -0400, nospam
wrote:

they'll learn *much* more about photography with digital than they ever
would have with film.

instant feedback alone is a huge plus to learning, plus the cost is $0
with digital so they're more likely to try stuff they wouldn't have
otherwise.

I wish my cost of converting from film cameras to digital cameras had
been $0. Or, that my continuing cost in using a digital camera was
closer to $0.


Aw tony. Dontcha know an education expert when you see one?

--
PeterN