Printing issue

I recently had some prints made at a local shop that has a printing station
where you load and select your images into the system and they print them.
They have produced good stuff before for me. On this occasion I had a
handful of 8x12s and a panorama printed. In each case I had done some
processing to adjust brightness etc to my taste. The 8X12s all came out
very well and matched (to my eyes) what I had edited on the screen very
well. The panorama came out very dark in comparison with the screen and not
what I was intending at all.

I cannot think of any reason why this discrepancy should happen, it is the
same printer using the same ink, just different shaped paper. As far as I
can tell the paper is the same as the 8x12 paper. As far as I can tell the
operator does not intervene in any way other than to send your job to the
printer.

Can anybody shed any light on why this happened?

David

On 09/07/2013 01:08, David Hare-Scott wrote:
I recently had some prints made at a local shop that has a printing
station where you load and select your images into the system and they
print them. They have produced good stuff before for me. On this
occasion I had a handful of 8x12s and a panorama printed. In each case
I had done some processing to adjust brightness etc to my taste. The
8X12s all came out very well and matched (to my eyes) what I had edited
on the screen very well. The panorama came out very dark in comparison
with the screen and not what I was intending at all.

I cannot think of any reason why this discrepancy should happen, it is
the same printer using the same ink, just different shaped paper. As
far as I can tell the paper is the same as the 8x12 paper. As far as I
can tell the operator does not intervene in any way other than to send
your job to the printer.

Can anybody shed any light on why this happened?

Only the shop where the kit is installed stands any real chance of
explaining it. Did you ask them about it when you picked up the prints?

I am assuming here that the images and prints are as you describe.

User error is still the most likely cause of problems like this, but the
machines can sometime play up along lesser trod pathways...

I discovered once that the Fuji crystal printers with particular early
firmware printed monochrome JPEGs (no chroma information at all) using a
false colour psychedelic default colour palette. The shop was very good
about reprinting the job after I showed them the prints and the original
monochrome source material which displayed OK on the screens but went
completely haywire when printed through their full system.

We actually redid one under controlled conditions to prove that it was
the machine at fault. Fuji fixed the firmware in the next release.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

David Hare-Scott wrote:

The 8X12s all came out
very well and matched (to my eyes) what I had edited on the screen very
well. The panorama came out very dark in comparison with the screen and not
what I was intending at all.

I cannot think of any reason why this discrepancy should happen, it is the
same printer using the same ink, just different shaped paper.

But it's a different file, with different data. You don't
even tell us the file format and what profile is embedded.
Never mind a possible automatic 'corrections' done by the
printing software.

-Wolfgang

On Tue, 9 Jul 2013 10:08:17 +1000, "David Hare-Scott"
wrote:

I recently had some prints made at a local shop that has a printing station
where you load and select your images into the system and they print them.
They have produced good stuff before for me. On this occasion I had a
handful of 8x12s and a panorama printed. In each case I had done some
processing to adjust brightness etc to my taste. The 8X12s all came out
very well and matched (to my eyes) what I had edited on the screen very
well. The panorama came out very dark in comparison with the screen and not
what I was intending at all.

I cannot think of any reason why this discrepancy should happen, it is the
same printer using the same ink, just different shaped paper. As far as I
can tell the paper is the same as the 8x12 paper. As far as I can tell the
operator does not intervene in any way other than to send your job to the
printer.

Can anybody shed any light on why this happened?

Other info needed? Are you using a color managed workflow and did you
soft proof the adjusted images using the profile of the printer used
by your shop? If not, how have you calibrated what you see on your
monitor to what you get from the printer? What software are you using
and did you assign a profile to the pano? What color space do you work
in? If there is no profile in the pano what does the printer assume?

etc, etc, etc.

me wrote:
On Tue, 9 Jul 2013 10:08:17 +1000, "David Hare-Scott"
wrote:

I recently had some prints made at a local shop that has a printing
station where you load and select your images into the system and
they print them. They have produced good stuff before for me. On
this occasion I had a handful of 8x12s and a panorama printed. In
each case I had done some processing to adjust brightness etc to my
taste. The 8X12s all came out very well and matched (to my eyes)
what I had edited on the screen very well. The panorama came out
very dark in comparison with the screen and not what I was intending
at all.

I cannot think of any reason why this discrepancy should happen, it
is the same printer using the same ink, just different shaped paper.
As far as I can tell the paper is the same as the 8x12 paper. As
far as I can tell the operator does not intervene in any way other
than to send your job to the printer.

Can anybody shed any light on why this happened?

Other info needed? Are you using a color managed workflow and did you
soft proof the adjusted images using the profile of the printer used
by your shop?

no, no

If not, how have you calibrated what you see on your
monitor to what you get from the printer?

no

What software are you using
and did you assign a profile to the pano?

Various software, all the images looked fine on screen regardless of the
editor/viewer I used, no

What color space do you work
in? If there is no profile in the pano what does the printer assume?


no idea

etc, etc, etc.

probably no to them also.

I have a vague idea what all this means. I take it to be the processes by
which professionals control the outcome of printing. I am not one. I bet
the bloke at the shop wouldn't have the slightest idea either, they mainly
sell whitegoods, TVs and computer accessories. If I asked him what pano
does his printer assume he would smile and ask me who is pano. The nearest
place where they might have a clue is probably 120km away. These people are
local, not too expensive and at least willing to try and help, I am stuck
with them.

If you are saying this is the only way to be certain of the result then I
will have to accept a degree of randomness. I was hoping that somebody
would say 'when the operator changed the paper he forgot to fondle the
framistan or he bumped the frobdignag with his elbow'. Apparently not.
Sigh.

David

On 2013-07-10 16:42:07 -0700, "David Hare-Scott" said:

I have a vague idea what all this means. I take it to be the processes
by which professionals control the outcome of printing. I am not one.
I bet the bloke at the shop wouldn't have the slightest idea either,
they mainly sell whitegoods, TVs and computer accessories. If I asked
him what pano does his printer assume he would smile and ask me who is
pano. The nearest place where they might have a clue is probably 120km
away. These people are local, not too expensive and at least willing
to try and help, I am stuck with them.

If you are saying this is the only way to be certain of the result then
I will have to accept a degree of randomness. I was hoping that
somebody would say 'when the operator changed the paper he forgot to
fondle the framistan or he bumped the frobdignag with his elbow'.
Apparently not. Sigh.

David

Some establishments offering print services can provide two different
levels of service when it comes to color correction, and that is
dependent on their level of expertise. Some labs have trained staff to
deal with color correction, including adjustments for
Lightness/darkness, RGB, saturation, and contrast. They will view and
color correct each image individually, and charge accordingly.

These same labs will also take image files where the customer prefers
to make their own color corrections (they will usually provide
evaluation prints at no charge). However, to get prints which meet your
satisfaction they usually ask that you have a properly calibrated and
profiled monitor so you can get consistent and repeatable results.

At a minimum, you will also be required to ensure that you have
embedded an ICC profile in the file you send them to print from. This
will usually be either sRGB or Adobe RGB(1998) and will reflect the
colorspace you are working in with your photo eding software.

Usually when saving edited jpeg image files in applications such as CS6
or Photoshop Elements there will be a check box in the "save as" dialog
box "Embed Color Profile", make sure this box is checked.

Many of the type of establishment you are probably using have no idea
of this requirement.

I suspect the issues you had with your panorama (the mysterious "pano"
mentioned above) had to do with the panorama image you saved not having
an embedded ICC profile, probably sRGB, while not as wide a color gamut
as Adobe RGB(1998), this seems to be what kiosk type labs will need.
Your non-pano images probably had an embedded profile.

If you haven't got a tool for calibrating your monitor, follow the
instructions provided with your monitor or computer. Make sure you make
this manual calibration in the same room light conditions you normally
work in. (you will get different calibration in a day lit room to one
with artificial lighting).

Then I suggest that you take that panorama (pano) image file back into
your editing application, adjust the the image to your taste, after
making sure your software is set to work in one of the two colorspaces
I mentioned. Then save the file making sure the profile is embedded.

--
Regards,

Savageduck

Savageduck wrote:
On 2013-07-10 16:42:07 -0700, "David Hare-Scott"
said:
I have a vague idea what all this means. I take it to be the
processes by which professionals control the outcome of printing. I
am not one. I bet the bloke at the shop wouldn't have the slightest
idea either, they mainly sell whitegoods, TVs and computer
accessories. If I asked him what pano does his printer assume he
would smile and ask me who is pano. The nearest place where they
might have a clue is probably 120km away. These people are local,
not too expensive and at least willing to try and help, I am stuck
with them. If you are saying this is the only way to be certain of the
result
then I will have to accept a degree of randomness. I was hoping that
somebody would say 'when the operator changed the paper he forgot to
fondle the framistan or he bumped the frobdignag with his elbow'.
Apparently not. Sigh.

David

Some establishments offering print services can provide two different
levels of service when it comes to color correction, and that is
dependent on their level of expertise. Some labs have trained staff to
deal with color correction, including adjustments for
Lightness/darkness, RGB, saturation, and contrast. They will view and
color correct each image individually, and charge accordingly.

These same labs will also take image files where the customer prefers
to make their own color corrections (they will usually provide
evaluation prints at no charge). However, to get prints which meet
your satisfaction they usually ask that you have a properly
calibrated and profiled monitor so you can get consistent and
repeatable results.
At a minimum, you will also be required to ensure that you have
embedded an ICC profile in the file you send them to print from. This
will usually be either sRGB or Adobe RGB(1998) and will reflect the
colorspace you are working in with your photo eding software.

Usually when saving edited jpeg image files in applications such as
CS6 or Photoshop Elements there will be a check box in the "save as"
dialog box "Embed Color Profile", make sure this box is checked.

Many of the type of establishment you are probably using have no idea
of this requirement.

I suspect the issues you had with your panorama (the mysterious "pano"
mentioned above) had to do with the panorama image you saved not
having an embedded ICC profile, probably sRGB, while not as wide a
color gamut as Adobe RGB(1998), this seems to be what kiosk type labs
will need. Your non-pano images probably had an embedded profile.

If you haven't got a tool for calibrating your monitor, follow the
instructions provided with your monitor or computer. Make sure you
make this manual calibration in the same room light conditions you
normally work in. (you will get different calibration in a day lit
room to one with artificial lighting).

Then I suggest that you take that panorama (pano) image file back into
your editing application, adjust the the image to your taste, after
making sure your software is set to work in one of the two colorspaces
I mentioned. Then save the file making sure the profile is embedded.

Thanks to Duck and to Me, well that would be You not me but... oh nevermind,
thanks both.

I don't think I will be going down the calibrate and match the details
route. My requirements don't warrant it and as mentioned the local bureau
probably won't cope either. There are only so many things you can study and
only so many gadgets you can buy in one lifetime and priorities have to be
set. The great majority of their product suits my eye so I will just adjust
and re-print any that miss the target by too much. If the re-prints wander
off in some other random direction of mismatch and it becomes clear it isn't
just my eyes/monitor/lighting/processing at fault I will ask for some
freebee replacements, which I expect they will satisfy if it is evident I am
a regular customer not just having a loan of them. When you live in a
remote location you need to make relationships with the locals.

David

On 2013-07-10 19:04:55 -0700, "David Hare-Scott" said:

Savageduck wrote:
On 2013-07-10 16:42:07 -0700, "David Hare-Scott"
said:
I have a vague idea what all this means. I take it to be the
processes by which professionals control the outcome of printing. I
am not one. I bet the bloke at the shop wouldn't have the slightest
idea either, they mainly sell whitegoods, TVs and computer
accessories. If I asked him what pano does his printer assume he
would smile and ask me who is pano. The nearest place where they
might have a clue is probably 120km away. These people are local,
not too expensive and at least willing to try and help, I am stuck
with them. If you are saying this is the only way to be certain of the result
then I will have to accept a degree of randomness. I was hoping that
somebody would say 'when the operator changed the paper he forgot to
fondle the framistan or he bumped the frobdignag with his elbow'.
Apparently not. Sigh.

David

Some establishments offering print services can provide two different
levels of service when it comes to color correction, and that is
dependent on their level of expertise. Some labs have trained staff to
deal with color correction, including adjustments for
Lightness/darkness, RGB, saturation, and contrast. They will view and
color correct each image individually, and charge accordingly.

These same labs will also take image files where the customer prefers
to make their own color corrections (they will usually provide
evaluation prints at no charge). However, to get prints which meet
your satisfaction they usually ask that you have a properly
calibrated and profiled monitor so you can get consistent and
repeatable results.
At a minimum, you will also be required to ensure that you have
embedded an ICC profile in the file you send them to print from. This
will usually be either sRGB or Adobe RGB(1998) and will reflect the
colorspace you are working in with your photo eding software.

Usually when saving edited jpeg image files in applications such as
CS6 or Photoshop Elements there will be a check box in the "save as"
dialog box "Embed Color Profile", make sure this box is checked.

Many of the type of establishment you are probably using have no idea
of this requirement.

I suspect the issues you had with your panorama (the mysterious "pano"
mentioned above) had to do with the panorama image you saved not
having an embedded ICC profile, probably sRGB, while not as wide a
color gamut as Adobe RGB(1998), this seems to be what kiosk type labs
will need. Your non-pano images probably had an embedded profile.

If you haven't got a tool for calibrating your monitor, follow the
instructions provided with your monitor or computer. Make sure you
make this manual calibration in the same room light conditions you
normally work in. (you will get different calibration in a day lit
room to one with artificial lighting).

Then I suggest that you take that panorama (pano) image file back into
your editing application, adjust the the image to your taste, after
making sure your software is set to work in one of the two colorspaces
I mentioned. Then save the file making sure the profile is embedded.

Thanks to Duck and to Me, well that would be You not me but... oh
nevermind, thanks both.

I don't think I will be going down the calibrate and match the details
route. My requirements don't warrant it and as mentioned the local
bureau probably won't cope either. There are only so many things you
can study and only so many gadgets you can buy in one lifetime and
priorities have to be set. The great majority of their product suits
my eye so I will just adjust and re-print any that miss the target by
too much. If the re-prints wander off in some other random direction
of mismatch and it becomes clear it isn't just my
eyes/monitor/lighting/processing at fault I will ask for some freebee
replacements, which I expect they will satisfy if it is evident I am a
regular customer not just having a loan of them. When you live in a
remote location you need to make relationships with the locals.

David

You should at minimum ask them what colorspace profile they use. They
might know what you are talking about, they might not, but whatever
they are using to print with is going to need that embedded ICC profile
to have a chance to produce results consistent to the adjustments you
have made. If they plead ignorance, just use sRGB and go for it.

Good luck.



--
Regards,

Savageduck

Savageduck wrote:

Thanks to Duck and to Me, well that would be You not me but... oh
nevermind, thanks both.

I don't think I will be going down the calibrate and match the
details route. My requirements don't warrant it and as mentioned
the local bureau probably won't cope either. There are only so many
things you can study and only so many gadgets you can buy in one
lifetime and priorities have to be set. The great majority of their
product suits my eye so I will just adjust and re-print any that
miss the target by too much. If the re-prints wander off in some
other random direction of mismatch and it becomes clear it isn't
just my eyes/monitor/lighting/processing at fault I will ask for
some freebee replacements, which I expect they will satisfy if it is
evident I am a regular customer not just having a loan of them. When you
live in a remote location you need to make relationships
with the locals. David

You should at minimum ask them what colorspace profile they use. They
might know what you are talking about, they might not, but whatever
they are using to print with is going to need that embedded ICC
profile to have a chance to produce results consistent to the
adjustments you have made. If they plead ignorance, just use sRGB and
go for it.
Good luck.

I had a chat with the operator. He doesn't know colour space from outer
space but he will look into it.

We printed another version of the problem image which I had lightened
several shades compared to the first. It turned out the same as the first
which was too dark, something had reversed my compensation. He agreed it
was too dark and asked me if I did any editing to the images and I explained
they had all been processed to some extent.

Then the light dawned. The print station software has an option for
automatically adjusting prints. As they mainly do postcard size from P&S or
phones that have had no processing they leave this option on by default. He
turned it off and re-printed the pic: problem solved. Apparently the size
of the print was not relevant, as one might expect, but it was overall
lighter than the others that had been OK. The automagic software had
decided everything had to be standard brightness and darkened it leaving the
others alone.

David

On 11/07/2013 03:04, David Hare-Scott wrote:
Savageduck wrote:
On 2013-07-10 16:42:07 -0700, "David Hare-Scott"
said:
I have a vague idea what all this means. I take it to be the
processes by which professionals control the outcome of printing. I
am not one. I bet the bloke at the shop wouldn't have the slightest
idea either, they mainly sell whitegoods, TVs and computer
accessories. If I asked him what pano does his printer assume he
would smile and ask me who is pano. The nearest place where they
might have a clue is probably 120km away. These people are local,
not too expensive and at least willing to try and help, I am stuck
with them. If you are saying this is the only way to be certain of
the result
then I will have to accept a degree of randomness. I was hoping that
somebody would say 'when the operator changed the paper he forgot to
fondle the framistan or he bumped the frobdignag with his elbow'.
Apparently not. Sigh.

David

Some establishments offering print services can provide two different
levels of service when it comes to color correction, and that is
dependent on their level of expertise. Some labs have trained staff to
deal with color correction, including adjustments for
Lightness/darkness, RGB, saturation, and contrast. They will view and
color correct each image individually, and charge accordingly.

These same labs will also take image files where the customer prefers
to make their own color corrections (they will usually provide
evaluation prints at no charge). However, to get prints which meet
your satisfaction they usually ask that you have a properly
calibrated and profiled monitor so you can get consistent and
repeatable results.
At a minimum, you will also be required to ensure that you have
embedded an ICC profile in the file you send them to print from. This
will usually be either sRGB or Adobe RGB(1998) and will reflect the
colorspace you are working in with your photo eding software.

Usually when saving edited jpeg image files in applications such as
CS6 or Photoshop Elements there will be a check box in the "save as"
dialog box "Embed Color Profile", make sure this box is checked.

Many of the type of establishment you are probably using have no idea
of this requirement.

I suspect the issues you had with your panorama (the mysterious "pano"
mentioned above) had to do with the panorama image you saved not
having an embedded ICC profile, probably sRGB, while not as wide a
color gamut as Adobe RGB(1998), this seems to be what kiosk type labs
will need. Your non-pano images probably had an embedded profile.

If you haven't got a tool for calibrating your monitor, follow the
instructions provided with your monitor or computer. Make sure you
make this manual calibration in the same room light conditions you
normally work in. (you will get different calibration in a day lit
room to one with artificial lighting).

Then I suggest that you take that panorama (pano) image file back into
your editing application, adjust the the image to your taste, after
making sure your software is set to work in one of the two colorspaces
I mentioned. Then save the file making sure the profile is embedded.

Thanks to Duck and to Me, well that would be You not me but... oh
nevermind, thanks both.

I don't think I will be going down the calibrate and match the details
route. My requirements don't warrant it and as mentioned the local
bureau probably won't cope either. There are only so many things you
can study and only so many gadgets you can buy in one lifetime and
priorities have to be set. The great majority of their product suits my
eye so I will just adjust and re-print any that miss the target by too
much. If the re-prints wander off in some other random direction of
mismatch and it becomes clear it isn't just my
eyes/monitor/lighting/processing at fault I will ask for some freebee
replacements, which I expect they will satisfy if it is evident I am a
regular customer not just having a loan of them. When you live in a
remote location you need to make relationships with the locals.

Basically what you need to do is take one of the offending images and
play with it in an image editor that will let you see the metadata to
figure out what is missing (or present) that is foxing the machine.

Compare it against a reference normal image that actually worked OK.

The most likely cause is mismatched colourspace and try all four
combinations after you have the image looking right on the screen.

I am a bit puzzled that you didn't notice a problem when you reviewed
the images on screen at the printers before submitting for printing.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown