More on Canon Rebel XT noise at high ISO - 2 main new data points

Today Prometheus commented courteously on the subject at hand

Whilst it is perhaps a little "terse" in that it does not
explain the circumstance where you need to take an exposure
lock (FEL) the English used to describe operation of it is
clear, concise, and has no evidence of the poor 'literal'
translation that I have seen in some instructions.

Clarity is the equivalent of beauty - it is in the eyes of the
beholder.

If you had not been so insistent that Canon make fault
cameras because it is more profitable and that no one else
that because Canon 'must be right' (or some such wording)
then you would probably have received less references to
your stupidity, it was only quite recently that you
understood the implication of the function described on
page 101 of the camera instruction manual ("FE (flash
exposure) lock obtains and locks the correct flash exposure
reading for any part of the subject"). Besides you were not
exactly reticent at attacking anyone who did not accept
that you were right and Canon were wrong. I think you still
have much to learn.

And, if you people don't give up this insane quest to prove that
you're smart and I am stupid, I may get angry again. You're not
the only one with a long memory.

In fact, I take that back. I am angry right now. I think you
need to go into my killfile, and I need to stop trying to reason
with fools.

--
ATM, aka Jerry

"My enemy's enemy is my friend, and my enemy's friend is my
enemy" - Middle East Maxim

All Things Mopar wrote:

Jeremy, I agree with /everything/ you say here except the
"piece of crap" part. While I did vote for his twice, his name
and title is President George W. Bush. He earned that title,
as well as the respect of being referred to as Mr. President,
by virtue of being elected and innaugurated presiding of the
United States.

I would have agreed with you even up through part of the Bush
administration. But the current president deserves neither the
title nor the respect of the office. He is a disgrace to the
office and the country. I am *not* proud to be an American if
he is who represents me to the world. That he could be the
president, and remain in office through a midterm election
where the people voting for him *knew* what they were getting,
makes me question whether our form of government is even still
viable. Democracy is clearly dead, but the Republic should
still have a chance. Unfortunately, our Republic puts too much
power in the executive, which was fine until someone came into
office who actually wants to abuse that power.

So the best I can do for Mr. Bush is to say that I honestly hope
no one kills him and that the whole thing is fixed by the book.

--
Jeremy |

Today Jeremy Nixon commented courteously on the subject at
hand

Jeremy, I agree with /everything/ you say here except the
"piece of crap" part. While I did vote for his twice, his
name and title is President George W. Bush. He earned that
title, as well as the respect of being referred to as Mr.
President, by virtue of being elected and innaugurated
presiding of the United States.

I would have agreed with you even up through part of the
Bush administration. But the current president deserves
neither the title nor the respect of the office. He is a
disgrace to the office and the country. I am *not* proud
to be an American if he is who represents me to the world.
That he could be the president, and remain in office
through a midterm election where the people voting for him
*knew* what they were getting, makes me question whether
our form of government is even still viable. Democracy is
clearly dead, but the Republic should still have a chance.
Unfortunately, our Republic puts too much power in the
executive, which was fine until someone came into office
who actually wants to abuse that power.

So the best I can do for Mr. Bush is to say that I honestly
hope no one kills him and that the whole thing is fixed by
the book.

So, you wanna take me on for politics now, Jeremy?

When it comes to honoring those who've attained high office, in
what ever country, you must grant them what they've earned, even
if you don't like them personally, their views, what they stand
for, or anything.

I believe I already commented on Yassar Afafat being referred to
as Mr. Chairman, even by the Israelis, and I doubt there's any
country anywhere in the world that hated the man more than they
did.

So, whatever you choose to do, you can take advantage of the
ideas I suggested and do something about /P/resident Bush, or
you can take advantage of your First Amendment right to petition
the government for redress of grievances, and I quote:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of
religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging
the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the
people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for
a redress of grievances."

But, unless/until you exhaust every means at your disposal, then
if you are a man of honor and integrity, you should honor the
president (not capitlized here). I don't like the sombitch, I
didn't like President William Jefferson Clinton, nor President
Jimmy Carter, and a fair number of others, including President
Richard M. Nixon, whom I voted for twice, then discovered he had
some peculiar ideas of integrity and the law.

--
ATM, aka Jerry

"My enemy's enemy is my friend, and my enemy's friend is my
enemy" - Middle East Maxim

....To all those folks fighting on with ATM, have you not heard the
proverbs (forgive the misquoting and lack of attribution..):

"You cannot win an argument when your opponent is unburdened by truth
or morality."

"Never enter a battle of wits with someone who is only half-armed..."

Today Chrlz commented courteously on the subject at hand

...To all those folks fighting on with ATM, have you not
heard the proverbs (forgive the misquoting and lack of
attribution..):

"You cannot win an argument when your opponent is
unburdened by truth or morality."

"Never enter a battle of wits with someone who is only
half-armed..."

As for you, while I don't reason with fools, I do fool with
fools, so **** Off, OK?

--
ATM, aka Jerry

"You’re gonna get your mind right"
"This the way he wants it, well, he gets it"
"What we got here is failure to communicate"

The Cap'n to Lucas "Luke" Jackson in "Cool Hand Luke"

Today Prometheus commented courteously on the subject at hand

Clarity is the equivalent of beauty - it is in the eyes of
the beholder.

I am still waiting for you detailing of what your camera
does, what the instruction manual tells you it does and how
they differ. Remember: the instruction manual for operating
the camera is no more a tuition in photography with it than
the instruction manual for a motor car is driving lessons.

Hope you're not holding your breath waiting, as I'd hate to
visualize you as turning blue on my account.

You don't come across as having the attitude or inclindation
to actually be of help if I did post the sections(s) I don't
understand and/or the camera memu(s) I don't understand.

A prerequite for me to try to talk to you intelligently,
sanely, calmly and with respect is two fold: 1) you must tell
me that you also have a Canon Rebel XT with a Canon 430EX
external flash, and 2) be willing to treat me as I would you.

2) is obvious, but 1) needs some explanation. Since I am on-
record as /not/ wanting Photography 101 lessons, nor
theoretical babble from people who've never held my camera and
flash in their hands, much less tried what I am trying, it is
pointess for me to debate what is or is not clear, what is or
is not really available, or what is or is not proper
technique.

Then prove your statement (Message-ID:
) that of the Canon
instruction manual for the Canon 350D/digital Rebel XT and
the Canon 350D/digital Rebel XT camera "none of the
sentences matched what the Menu functions said, nor what
they did, nor how the camera/flash actually operated", or
else stop transferring your anger with yourself for your
failure to understand on to others.

This is intuitively obviously, and the proof is left to the
reader.

You're not
the only one with a long memory.

I have always found memories to be selective over a long
time scale, in fact sufficiently unreliable to make them of
little use in forensic matters.

Not mine, just yours. And, this thread is not "forensic" in
nature. Maybe you do, but I do not want to do an autopsy on
who said what to whom when about what. That was over three
weeks ago. I think you've been watching too much "NCIS" on TV.

If I believed anyone here would actually listen and respond
with respect, starting from a position of first-hand
knowledge, I might be inclined to try again. But, besides the
obvious trolling, I see no point with some "expert" who owns a
Nikon film camera or a Sony digital telling me what to do or
not do.

Reflect on that. If you come back with a reasonable response,
I will consider posting my findings and current
questions/problems. If you reply as a smart-ass again, the
very least you can expect is to be re-plonked. There's no
telling what you might expect if I decide to respond back, as
I am demonstrably mentally unbalanced, as well as stupid,
ignorant, inexperienced, and do not possess the good judgment
needed to learn from my mistakes. The choice is yours...

--
ATM, aka Jerry

"You’re gonna get your mind right"
"This the way he wants it, well, he gets it"
"What we got here is failure to communicate"

The Cap'n to Lucas "Luke" Jackson in "Cool Hand Luke"

In article , All Things Mopar
writes
Today Prometheus commented courteously on the subject at hand

Clarity is the equivalent of beauty - it is in the eyes of
the beholder.

I am still waiting for you detailing of what your camera
does, what the instruction manual tells you it does and how
they differ. Remember: the instruction manual for operating
the camera is no more a tuition in photography with it than
the instruction manual for a motor car is driving lessons.

Hope you're not holding your breath waiting, as I'd hate to
visualize you as turning blue on my account.

As if I would hold my breath, although I could be wasting it.

You don't come across as having the attitude or inclindation
to actually be of help if I did post the sections(s) I don't
understand and/or the camera memu(s) I don't understand.

A prerequite for me to try to talk to you intelligently,
sanely, calmly and with respect is two fold: 1) you must tell
me that you also have a Canon Rebel XT with a Canon 430EX
external flash, and 2) be willing to treat me as I would you.

2) is obvious, but 1) needs some explanation. Since I am on-
record as /not/ wanting Photography 101 lessons, nor
theoretical babble from people who've never held my camera and
flash in their hands, much less tried what I am trying, it is
pointess for me to debate what is or is not clear, what is or
is not really available, or what is or is not proper
technique.

1. I have already stated that I have a Canon 350D (Digital Rebel XT) and
430EX Speedlite, I have stated that the camera and instructions match
(having both in front of me is a prerequisite for this), I have
described how I used FEC to obtain a correctly exposed photograph of a
very shiny subject (using the camera is essential to this).

2. I will now quote the page 100 of the camera instruction manual; where
symbols are required that I can not use in this medium I shall use a ?
followed by a number which I shall explain in footnotes. I have used
CAPS where the manual uses bold in the headings of sections.

=========================================

Flash Exposure compensation

In the same way as normal exposure compensation, you can set exposure
compensation for flash. You can set flash exposure compensation up to
+/- 2 stops in 1/3-stop increments.

1 SELECT [FLASH EXP COMP].
- Select the [?1] tab.

- Press the ?2 key to select [FLASH EXP COMP], then press?3.

2 SET THE FLASH EXPOSURE COMPENSATION AMOUNT.
- Press the ?4 to set the desired amount, then press ?3.

(There is a screen print of this to the left and a diagram below
indicating: scale, exposure level mark and directions of decreased &
increased exposure.)

- To cancel the flash exposure compensation, set the flash
exposure compensation amount back to ?5

- When you press the shutter button halfway, the ?4 icon will
be displayed in the viewfinder and on the LCD panel.

(There is representation of the status bar at the bottom of the
viewfinder to the left.)

3 TAKE THE PICTURE.

- The flash exposure compensation amount will remain in effect even
after you turn the power switch to OFF.

- The procedure is the same with EX-series Speedlites. The flash
exposure compensation amount can be set with the camera.

=========================================
Footnotes:
?1 the second camera menu page.
?2 The up/down keys.
?3 The set key.
?4 The left/right keys.
?5 Centre point of the scale on the LCD.
?6 Flash compensation symbol .
-----------------------------------------

My camera and flash behave exactly as described above; now if your
instruction manual is different to the above will you please quote it,
or if your camera behaves differently to the above then will you please
describe how it does behave


--
Ian G8ILZ

Today Prometheus commented courteously on the subject at hand

You don't come across as having the attitude or
inclindation to actually be of help if I did post the
sections(s) I don't understand and/or the camera memu(s) I
don't understand.

A prerequite for me to try to talk to you intelligently,
sanely, calmly and with respect is two fold: 1) you must
tell me that you also have a Canon Rebel XT with a Canon
430EX external flash, and 2) be willing to treat me as I
would you.

2) is obvious, but 1) needs some explanation. Since I am
on- record as /not/ wanting Photography 101 lessons, nor
theoretical babble from people who've never held my camera
and flash in their hands, much less tried what I am trying,
it is pointess for me to debate what is or is not clear,
what is or is not really available, or what is or is not
proper technique.

1. I have already stated that I have a Canon 350D (Digital
Rebel XT) and 430EX Speedlite,

Yours is what is called the "export" or "international"
version, while Rebel XT is the U.S. model name.

I have stated that the
camera and instructions match (having both in front of me
is a prerequisite for this), I have described how I used
FEC to obtain a correctly exposed photograph of a very
shiny subject (using the camera is essential to this).

Yes, I know that. I do keep what people say in my Xnews sent
folder. Yes, you explained what you said you did - in the
middle of "Jerry is an asshole who won't accept help even when
given". Note, however, that I was talking about FEL, not FEC,
which is a different animal and I now use that when the
feeling moves me.

2. I will now quote the page 100 of the camera instruction
manual; where symbols are required that I can not use in
this medium I shall use a ? followed by a number which I
shall explain in footnotes. I have used CAPS where the
manual uses bold in the headings of sections.

=========================================

Flash Exposure compensation

In the same way as normal exposure compensation, you can
set exposure compensation for flash. You can set flash
exposure compensation up to +/- 2 stops in 1/3-stop
increments.

1 SELECT [FLASH EXP COMP].
- Select the [?1] tab.

- Press the ?2 key to select [FLASH EXP COMP],
then press?3.

2 SET THE FLASH EXPOSURE COMPENSATION AMOUNT.
- Press the ?4 to set the desired amount, then
press ?3.

(There is a screen print of this to the left and a diagram
below indicating: scale, exposure level mark and directions
of decreased & increased exposure.)

- To cancel the flash exposure compensation, set
the flash
exposure compensation amount back to ?5

- When you press the shutter button halfway, the
?4 icon will
be displayed in the viewfinder and on the LCD panel.

(There is representation of the status bar at the bottom of
the viewfinder to the left.)

3 TAKE THE PICTURE.

- The flash exposure compensation amount will remain in
effect even after you turn the power switch to OFF.

- The procedure is the same with EX-series Speedlites. The
flash exposure compensation amount can be set with the
camera.

=========================================
Footnotes:
?1 the second camera menu page.
?2 The up/down keys.
?3 The set key.
?4 The left/right keys.
?5 Centre point of the scale on the LCD.
?6 Flash compensation symbol .
-----------------------------------------

My camera and flash behave exactly as described above; now
if your instruction manual is different to the above will
you please quote it, or if your camera behaves differently
to the above then will you please describe how it does
behave

You do not know how my camera and flash perform. Not when I
first posted the start of this thread. Not after I talked
about what I did. Not after I "announced" that I'd found the
solution - on my own. Not what successes or failures I get
with the 430EX in Manual, and the Rebel in shutter priority,
aperture priority, or full manual.

I don't know if my manual(s) say this or that or the other
thing. I'm upstairs and they're downstairs, and neither the
issue or you are sufficient motivation for me to go get them.

It is suprising what can be learned by reading and
experimenting. It is also /not/ suprising for text, menus,
usage, and results to be different. e.g., I forget whether
there's 4 or 5 choices for what happens when the shutter is
pressed half-way to lock whatever it is told to, or told not
to. While I have no obligation to tell you this, my feeble
brain cannot see the relationship in manual or eTTL on the
430EX nor how any of the 4 or 5 lock choices affect exposure.
All I will say is that a) when I go somewhere to learn, I make
up a number of scenarios and am very careful so that I can
look at the image on the LCD and on my computer, and co-
examine the camera's "info" and the EXIF on the JPEG.

I have an idea in mind as to how I should solve this
"dilemma", but it will /not/ be by asking questions here.
'Cuz, while you /could/ give your experience, and insights as
to how your experience would help me climb the learning curve
faster, you either won't, can't don't speak my language. How
do I know that? Because "center" is correct and "centre" is
not, and "color" is correct, while "colour" is not.

Still, being a fair-minded person who does not suffer in the
least from a condition known as "cognitive dissonance" and,
remembering Mr. Spock speaking to Capt. Kirk, "Captain, I
shall consider it.

--
ATM, aka Jerry

"You’re gonna get your mind right"
"This the way he wants it, well, he gets it"
"What we got here is failure to communicate"

The Cap'n to Lucas "Luke" Jackson in "Cool Hand Luke"

Today Prometheus commented courteously on the subject at hand

Yours is what is called the "export" or "international"
version, while Rebel XT is the U.S. model name.

Are the made in the USA, or is yours als an export from the
Far East?

Who cares, and who knows? You're picking fly **** off the back
of gnats again, which makes you a pain in /my/ ass I don't
need. All I meant, troll, was that the /names/ are different.

Yes, I know that. I do keep what people say in my Xnews
sent folder. Yes, you explained what you said you did - in
the middle of "Jerry is an asshole who won't accept help
even when given".

I think you must be confusing me with one of your many
'fans'.

I'm making no mistake, and you ain't one of my "friends".
You're just another twit who won't let go of a 3-week-old
thought, and are happy to just pick at a scab. And, you still
have yet to offer advice commensurate with your alleged
expertise.

Note, however, that I was talking about FEL, not FEC, which
is a different animal and I now use that when the feeling
moves me.

2. I will now quote the page 100 of the camera
instruction ----Cut for brevity----------
You do not know how my camera and flash perform.

Of course I do not, but sine you insist that it does not
perform as described in the Instruction Manual it is for
you to demonstrate how it differs.

This isn't a court, and isn't a criminal court, so I have to
demonstrate no-thing, nor will I, just to satisfy your pruient
interests.

I don't know if my manual(s) say this or that or the other
thing. I'm upstairs and they're downstairs, and neither the
issue or you are sufficient motivation for me to go get
them.

I did not expect that you would want to risk finding that
your manual and camera behave exactly as described in the
manual I downloaded from Canon USA (and as my camera does).

I'm simply responding to your mindless drivel. You neither
know what it says in my manuals nor what I've read, and
certainly not what I've comprehended, tried, and learned.
Again, all you're doing is the classic troll - inciting to
flames.

It is suprising what can be learned by reading and
experimenting. It is also /not/ suprising for text, menus,
usage, and results to be different. e.g., I forget whether
there's 4 or 5 choices for what happens when the shutter is
pressed half-way to lock whatever it is told to, or told
not to.

Now I do accept that there are quite a few options prior to
or changed whilst half-way; it is taking me a while to
learn them by using them

While I have no obligation to tell you this, my feeble
brain cannot see the relationship in manual or eTTL on the
430EX nor how any of the 4 or 5 lock choices affect
exposure. All I will say is that a) when I go somewhere to
learn, I make up a number of scenarios and am very careful
so that I can look at the image on the LCD and on my
computer, and co- examine the camera's "info" and the EXIF
on the JPEG.

Now, taking test photographs under different settings is a
useful way to learn what they mean in practice.

I have an idea in mind as to how I should solve this
"dilemma", but it will /not/ be by asking questions here.
'Cuz, while you /could/ give your experience, and insights
as to how your experience would help me climb the learning
curve faster, you either won't, can't don't speak my
language. How do I know that? Because "center" is correct
and "centre" is not, and "color" is correct, while "colour"
is not.

Ah-Ha, so my using English spelling for English words and
your using Americanisms prevents you from understanding? I
think not, the very fact that you offered your irrelevant
correction shows that you do understand.

Nope. It just says that you and I don't speak the same
language. If you have any basic education, you would know that
regional differences account for a lot of mis-understandings.

I suggest that you practice taking deep breaths in a dark
room until the 'red' goes away, and then we can try again.

And, I suggest that you just **** Off and go away.

I will say this about your /entire/ series of derragatory,
imfammatory posts: OK. That means "I acknoledge your
transmission", and /not/ that I agree. Which I do not. Bye!

--
ATM, aka Jerry

"You’re gonna get your mind right"
"This the way he wants it, well, he gets it"
"What we got here is failure to communicate"

The Cap'n to Lucas "Luke" Jackson in "Cool Hand Luke"

In article , All Things Mopar
writes
Today Prometheus commented courteously on the subject at hand

Yours is what is called the "export" or "international"
version, while Rebel XT is the U.S. model name.

Are the made in the USA, or is yours als an export from the
Far East?

Who cares, and who knows?

You seemed to, why else the proclamation that the 350D is the "export
model" as though the digital Rebel XT was not; clue not everything good
is made in the USA.

Yes, I know that. I do keep what people say in my Xnews
sent folder. Yes, you explained what you said you did - in
the middle of "Jerry is an asshole who won't accept help
even when given".

I think you must be confusing me with one of your many
'fans'.

I'm making no mistake, and you ain't one of my "friends".

As somebody once said "I get a headache thinking down yo your level".

Note, however, that I was talking about FEL, not FEC, which
is a different animal and I now use that when the feeling
moves me.

2. I will now quote the page 100 of the camera
instruction ----Cut for brevity----------
You do not know how my camera and flash perform.

Of course I do not, but sine you insist that it does not
perform as described in the Instruction Manual it is for
you to demonstrate how it differs.

This isn't a court, and isn't a criminal court, so I have to
demonstrate no-thing, nor will I, just to satisfy your pruient
interests.

Indeed you do not; but YOU are the one who insisted that the instruction
manual was wrong, so either prove it or retract your lie.

I don't know if my manual(s) say this or that or the other
thing. I'm upstairs and they're downstairs, and neither the
issue or you are sufficient motivation for me to go get
them.

I did not expect that you would want to risk finding that
your manual and camera behave exactly as described in the
manual I downloaded from Canon USA (and as my camera does).

I'm simply responding to your mindless drivel. You neither
know what it says in my manuals nor what I've read, and
certainly not what I've comprehended,

True, I do not know what it says in your manual or what you saw when you
looked at it, this is why when you insisted that your manual was wrong I
asked what it said. If I do not know what you have read, what the camera
does, and what you think you have read how can I help you!

It is suprising what can be learned by reading and
experimenting. It is also /not/ suprising for text, menus,
usage, and results to be different. e.g., I forget whether
there's 4 or 5 choices for what happens when the shutter is
pressed half-way to lock whatever it is told to, or told
not to.

Now I do accept that there are quite a few options prior to
or changed whilst half-way; it is taking me a while to
learn them by using them

While I have no obligation to tell you this, my feeble
brain cannot see the relationship in manual or eTTL on the
430EX nor how any of the 4 or 5 lock choices affect
exposure. All I will say is that a) when I go somewhere to
learn, I make up a number of scenarios and am very careful
so that I can look at the image on the LCD and on my
computer, and co- examine the camera's "info" and the EXIF
on the JPEG.

Now, taking test photographs under different settings is a
useful way to learn what they mean in practice.

I have an idea in mind as to how I should solve this
"dilemma", but it will /not/ be by asking questions here.
'Cuz, while you /could/ give your experience, and insights
as to how your experience would help me climb the learning
curve faster, you either won't, can't don't speak my
language. How do I know that? Because "center" is correct
and "centre" is not, and "color" is correct, while "colour"
is not.

Ah-Ha, so my using English spelling for English words and
your using Americanisms prevents you from understanding? I
think not, the very fact that you offered your irrelevant
correction shows that you do understand.

Nope. It just says that you and I don't speak the same
language. If you have any basic education, you would know that
regional differences account for a lot of mis-understandings.

Fortunately there is little difference in grammar and semantics,
although we sometimes use different words for the same thing or the same
word for different things which can cause confusion. However that is not
the case here, and your reference to spelling difference was an attempt
to mask your comprehension.


--
Ian G8ILZ