More on Canon Rebel XT noise at high ISO - 2 main new data points

Today G.T. commented courteously on the subject at hand

And, you have the unmitigated gall to tell me I'm stupid?!
This is a text-only NG, there is no bandwidth to waste.

So text doesn't take up space? No resources are used to
store this message?

This is supposed to be a digital SLR NG, you're telling me that
text posts take up resources, so /you/ waste some just telling
me that? And, you wonder why I think all you people are
arrogant/stupid/ignorant boors?! Just /one/ itty, bitty JPEG
takes much more "bandwidth" than all the posts to this ****-ass
NG for an entire month. And, them that assailed me for not
posting full-size RAW are talking about 50-150 /MEGA/bytes. This
NG doesn't generate that many "resources" in several millenia.

So, Greg, exactly what is your point in this /pointless/ debate,
except the usual - you asshole just plain like to take on All
Things Moped. I think you can guess what I'm thinking right
now...

--
ATM, aka Jerry

"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately
explained by stupidity!" - Hanlon's Razor

Chrlz wrote:
Yes, I would expect a prosumer to overexpose in dumb-mode, compared to
a DSLR.
Would you care to post the proof of this, by the way, so we can verify
the fairness of the test, and view the exif data to make a more
reasoned judgement? Or link to any page which shows similar? Because
this would be pretty easy to prove.

But it's a moot point anyway. Different cameras use different
auto-algorithms. Some are better than others, some are intended to
suit people who aren't likely to post-process, some take the attributes
of the sensor into account in different ways, some avoid blown
highlights, some.... ad infinitum.

Whether or not there is a problem with every XT ever built (and yes,
I've heard a few similar comments), can you tell us *your* opinion
about how flash metering handles reflective subjects in dark
environments, and whether you should use auto mode for that type of
work?

All I can say is this:

1) I have my Canon G1 - probably 2000 pictures taken - maybe half with
flash, over 2 years. Some from far away. I have pictures taken in a
room with NY Gov. Pataki giving a speech from 40 ft. away with and
without flash - the flash made the picture look as bright as day. In 2
years - never once had to brighten a photo with Photoshop.

2) Get my Digital Rebel - now have taken again about 2-3000 shots -
about half with flash - and the flash pictures come out dark - so that
almost EVERY flash picture comes out too dark. Increasing exposure
does not work. The flash just powers down more.

3) I call Canon - there is no problem with the camera. Sorry, out of
luck.

4) I look on the internet. Many postings of severe under compensation
of the flash. Links pointing to software hacks to give the Digital
Rebel FEC. Did not want to try it - I stick wit Photoshop on almost
every flash picture.

5) Dig Rebel XT comes out with FEC. I buy it and find that I need +2/3
to +1 FEC on almost every flash picture to get to where I do not have
to go in and brighten the picture with photoshop. No problems in
ambient light. Only with flash.

Now, if I had a sophisticated setup, I could show how the flash
underpowers with the Digital Rebel series - but I do not. It is not a
question of a pro-sumer overesposing in dumb mode. Those picutures
come out perfect. It is that no matter what mode I chose - full
automatic, program, aperture or shutter priority - unless I use the FEC
the pictures comeout too darn dark. I should not have to go into
Photoshop on every flash picture to brighten it. And I have to do that
on almost every picture.

They have set up the camera poorly, some people say on purpose, and it
is a pain in the neck.

Lou

Today icudoc commented courteously on the subject at hand

All I can say is this:

1) I have my Canon G1 - probably 2000 pictures taken -
maybe half with flash, over 2 years. Some from far away.
I have pictures taken in a room with NY Gov. Pataki giving
a speech from 40 ft. away with and without flash - the
flash made the picture look as bright as day. In 2 years -
never once had to brighten a photo with Photoshop.

2) Get my Digital Rebel - now have taken again about 2-3000
shots - about half with flash - and the flash pictures come
out dark - so that almost EVERY flash picture comes out too
dark. Increasing exposure does not work. The flash just
powers down more.

Lou, I've had my Rebel XT and Canon 430EX external now for
only 2 weeks and have well over 2,000 "test" shots of cars in
museums using flash. Almost all are badly underexposed.

I've mainly tried the standard Programmed Auto on the camera
and eTTL on the 430EX. Like you, I found upping the flash EC
to be less than totally acceptable. I have also had zero luck
with full manual on the camera and manual on the flash. Still
working on it, but it appears the camera and/or flash are
/still/ doing AE and I have't found where to turn it off yet.

Then, late yesterday, RTFM the 10th time, lightning struck!
Eureka! I think I found it! There's a little AE lock button on
the back of the Rebel XT to the right with a snow flake icon
on the body. I learned that this is the correct procedure for
flash, with the built-in pop-up flash and the 430EX:

1) Aim the /center/ AF point at the part of the main subject I
want the flash to expose for and press the AE lock button.
"FEL" will flash in the viewfinder, and the camera retains
this in memory
2) Aim the AF point(s) at the part of the main subject I want
to do the AF lock for and press/hold the shutter half-way down
3) Move the camera to compose the shot
4) Push shutter all the way down

Still experimenting. Will be going for another test shoot at
the Walter P.Chrysler Museum this morning, but it is looking
very, very good. I took a couple dozen flash shots of cars on
dealer lots in the dark. Normal Programmed Auto and eTTL
produced the expected 2-4 stops under. But, doing the AE lock
thingy resulted in exposures within a stop or two.

Will let people know when I am successful with this.

3) I call Canon - there is no problem with the camera.
Sorry, out of luck.

Had mine checked, also.

4) I look on the internet. Many postings of severe under
compensation of the flash. Links pointing to software
hacks to give the Digital Rebel FEC. Did not want to try
it - I stick wit Photoshop on almost every flash picture.

I had this problem when I first bought my previous Nikon
Coolpix 5700. Last April I test drove a Nikon 8800 and SB-800
external but could not make it work, so I took it back. Just
bought the Canon right after Christmas.

I think the TTL flash and Prog Auto cameras are just smarter
than me and I don't get good results - yet - because I still
don't full understand how it is doing flash exposure. But, my
little discovery above looks promising.

5) Dig Rebel XT comes out with FEC. I buy it and find that
I need +2/3 to +1 FEC on almost every flash picture to get
to where I do not have to go in and brighten the picture
with photoshop. No problems in ambient light. Only with
flash.

Now, if I had a sophisticated setup, I could show how the
flash underpowers with the Digital Rebel series - but I do
not. It is not a question of a pro-sumer overesposing in
dumb mode. Those picutures come out perfect. It is that
no matter what mode I chose - full automatic, program,
aperture or shutter priority - unless I use the FEC the
pictures comeout too darn dark. I should not have to go
into Photoshop on every flash picture to brighten it. And
I have to do that on almost every picture.

They have set up the camera poorly, some people say on
purpose, and it is a pain in the neck.


--
ATM, aka Jerry

"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately
explained by stupidity!" - Hanlon's Razor

All Things Mopar wrote:
Today Wolfgang Weisselberg commented courteously on the

OK, people, next time the choice is WWW or FTP or Gopher
and Mopar is going to choose.

I think you're learning impaired, Wolfgang.

Sorry, were you talking to your mirror image?

I asked for help /days/ ago, and didn't get it for the usual reasons.

You rejected the help, yes.

I no longer give a tinker's damn if you "experts" do or don't see my
crap.

Could you then leave this newsgroup, and close the door on
the way out?

Now, if all you
have to do is continue to take me on long, long, long
after I've shown what an asshole you are, then keep coming
back. And, I continue to point out what an asshole you
are.

Mopar, please do look into a mirror and read the above 2
sentences out loud. Look at your mirror image while doing
it. Thanks.

And, why don't you **** Off!

Who died and made you world dictator?

P.S. there is no "u" in "favorites".

The OED says differently, so there.

I believe in one God, the Father, the Son, and the Holy
Spirit.

That's three, or four, not one. It still being a mostly free world
when it comes to religion (despite of anti-terror extremists),
feel free to believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, but please
don't do it here. Unless you can demonstrate how the FSM makes
your flash misbehave or something.

And, I owe my allegiance to one country.

As you like.

With one set of spelling, usage, and grammar rules. If you don't like
that, tough ****!

Well, that's a new one. US-English having a single spelling,
usage and grammar.


And, I don't care if
/your/ country uses them. The only country that matters to
me - The United States of America - does not. Chew on that
for awhile...

Ah, yes, a nationalist of the worst type --- the stupid
type. Never mind the oil imports and the goods exports.
Cars do run on nationalist ideals, not on oil products,
right?

Yes. We Americans are only 3% of the world's population but
burn up 25%+ of the world's energy.

And are completely unwilling to ratify the Kyoto protocol.

Now whatever simplistic
country you're from, you stay there, I'll stay here.

Please do so. And burn your history books, they may not only
show you things outside, they may even reveal who made a lot
of US 'inventions' and great leaps possible or even had them
first.

I'll drie American cars,

Oh so reliable.

you drive euro econoboxes for your narrow
streets and socialist government-mandated high gas taxes.

Oh, the "It's Tuesday, so this must be Belgium" type.

Yes, I earned my living from then-Chrysler, now the Chrysler
Group, a division of DaimlerChrysler AG.

You may be interested that Gottlieb Daimler, Paul Daimler,
Wilhelm Maybach, Nikolaus Otto, Carl Friedrich Benz, Emil und
Mercedes Jellinek were all not American.

You may also not know that the DaimlerChrysler AG sells only
45% inside the US. You most certainly don't know that AG means
Aktiengesellschaft --- not exactly an american name.

And you may need to be reminded that Kuwait and the Deutsche Bank
are amongst the top shareholders.

Oh, what's the nationality of the CEO of DaimlerChrysler AG again?

Can you name all places where the DaimlerChrysler AG builds
cars?

Yes, I am now
retired. Yes, my father also worked for an retired from
Chrysler, God rest his soul. Oh, dang! Almost forgot! I own a
bunch of stock! Guess that makes me a part-owner and not just
a company shill, huh?

Part owner, yes. Small part, of necessity, but part. And
you don't care for the outside world, when it's absolutely
necessary for the worth of that stock?

But, attempting to get you to see this is a text book case of
trying to reason with a fool. Again, I ask, watsa matta with
ya plonk digit?

I'll let that stand uncommented.

Let's also remove all immigrants to the USA. Starting from
the British and French colonization.

Wolfgang, do you know the difference between a "rebellion" and
a "revolution"? Come back when you find out. We kicked the
British asses out of /out/ country in 1783, then after a rough
start, kicked their asses out again not long after 1812. So
much for colonial crap.

Oh, how you misremember. It was a stalemate. All your
actions to capture Canada failed, failed badly. You did stop
the British from getting Baltimore and New Orleans, but they
did burn down both the Wite House and the Capitol. The
British were under orders not to hold any territory, so you
got the rest of Washington back as they withdrew.


Now, fast-forward to WWI, the rise of Nazi Germany, and the
rise of Imperial Japan.

WWI or WWII?

Let me see if I remember my world
history: The /United States/ provided Great Britain the food,
oil, war materiale, et al for /10 years/!

And were so ... proud that they didn't believe in zigzagging.
Even though the Limeys told them why and how. The US likes to
learn the lessons the hard way, and these lessons cost were quite
a number of ships, if I remember correctly.

FDR and Winny were
pals, and both these very bright men could easily see that no
matter what their countryman thought - the USA was very
isolationist - it was in /both/ countries interest to be
Allies. Had FDR not done that, there would be no Great Britain
today, but also no United States. Because, the 8th Air Force
would have not had B-17 fields in southern England, and there
would have been no place for British, Canadadian, American,
and other Allied soldiers to stage 18 months for D-Day.

So, twit, don't lecture me about being American-centric.

Thanks for the compliment, but English is just my second
language and I hail not from the United Kingdom, and you are
still American-centric.

-Wolfgang

All Things Mopar wrote:

Because I'm terminally stupid, ignorant, and inexperience.

Ah, the first step to redemption.

-Wolfgang

Some selected wisdom from just a single mopar post:

moparAnd, why don't you **** Off!
moparAnd, I owe my allegiance to one country. With one set
moparof spelling, usage, and grammar rules. If you don't like that,
mopartough ****!
moparThe only country that matters to
moparme - The United States of America - does not.
moparChew on that for awhile...
moparYes. We Americans are only 3% of the world's population
moparbut burn up 25%+ of the world's energy.
moparNow whatever simplistic country you're from,
mopar you stay there, I'll stay here. I'll drie (sic)
moparAmerican cars, you drive euro econoboxes for your narrow
moparstreets and socialist government-mandated high gas taxes.
mopar..attempting to get you to see this is a text book case of
mopartrying to reason with a fool.
moparWe kicked the British asses out of /out/ (sic) country
moparin 1783, then after a rough start, kicked their asses out
moparagain not long after 1812. So much for colonial crap.
moparThe /United States/ provided Great Britain the food,
moparoil, war materiale (sic), et al for /10 years/!
moparHad FDR not done that, there would be no Great Britain
mopartoday...
moparSo, twit, don't lecture me about being American-centric.

...hmm, while on the topic of spelling, is *obnoxious* spelt with a 'u',
as in:

"obnoxious redneck"

But anyway, it's *so* nice to see that despite him telling us over and
over how no-one here is helping him, he has taken up just about every
single suggestion offered and is now making great progress. He
certainly deserves his success, don't you think?

(O:

In article , All Things Mopar
writes
Then, late yesterday, RTFM the 10th time, lightning struck! Eureka! I
think I found it! There's a little AE lock button on the back of the
Rebel XT to the right with a snow flake icon on the body. I learned
that this is the correct procedure for flash, with the built-in pop-up
flash and the 430EX:

About time, does this mean that perhaps it is not a fault with all the
350D cameras you tried but a simple case of operator error. Oh, and you
can set that flash to manual (I have one). Perhaps if you had read the
(f) manual or at least listened to the advise you would have been lees
abusive.

And to answer your reply to my other post; if I had been standing next
to you I might have noticed you using auto flash without the flash
exposure lock.
--
Ian G8ILZ

Today Prometheus commented courteously on the subject at hand

Then, late yesterday, RTFM the 10th time, lightning struck!
Eureka! I think I found it! There's a little AE lock button
on the back of the Rebel XT to the right with a snow flake
icon on the body. I learned that this is the correct
procedure for flash, with the built-in pop-up flash and the
430EX:

About time, does this mean that perhaps it is not a fault
with all the 350D cameras you tried but a simple case of
operator error. Oh, and you can set that flash to manual (I
have one). Perhaps if you had read the (f) manual or at
least listened to the advise you would have been lees
abusive.

Yes, it was operator error, but the kind caused by 1) the
store not telling me, 2) the manual not telling me, and 3) the
"experts" not telling me. Rather, all you people are 100%
useless. So, take the "F" out of RTFM and do that to yourself.

And to answer your reply to my other post; if I had been
standing next to you I might have noticed you using auto
flash without the flash exposure lock.

Yes, you might have, indeed. Now that you've established
yourself as another smart-ass, why the hell isn't this "easy"
stuff in big, bold print in the manual and why couldn't one of
you geniuses have just pointed me in the right direction,
instead of heaping major abuse on me, which is continuing to
this very minute?

As to manual, I still haven't got that one figured out, and
you're no help there, either. I cannot stop whatever AE is
occuring but don't know if it is the 430EX or the camera or
both. But, I /will/ solve that, no thanks to you trolls.

Let me conclude that I did RTFM, more times than you can
imagine, and had I received any reasonable suggestions, I
would have heeded them, and thanked the person for the help.
Instead, you all chose/are still choosing to make fun of me.
So, don't bother replying anymore, unless you too like ****ing
into the strong wind of my killfile.

--
ATM, aka Jerry

Ed Ruf (REPLY to E-MAIL IN SIG!) wrote:
On Sun, 8 Jan 2006 21:25:25 +0000, in rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
Prometheus wrote:

I am not sure what my posting history has to do with x-no-archive,
I
post to this and others when I have a question, an answer, or an
aside. I am still learning how to use my new DSLR system (I learned
to take photographs with a manual camera but do not want to just
use
the 350D on manual only).

It has to do with replying to a very side issue in a thread taken
out
of context. I've been here since the group was formed and in r.p.d
for years. Even though I've been setting this header for a while
I've
never made an issue of it not being continued before. It came up in
this thread because the OP did nothing but quote my reply and add
his
sig, not just to mine, but also to someone else's reply. Both of us
set this header. I postulated he did this to circumvent these
headers, as there was no other reason to do so. That's why it's been
brought up. Period. If you wish to interject yourself in this
matter,
please do so within the context of the thread, that's all. Else wise
it's not the issue you are trying to make of it. Ok?

Now to try and keep photo content here's a link to my latest
panorama.
http://edwardgruf.com/Digital_Photog...ano/index.html

Very fine: No matter where those folks riding the con-trails are
going, you show evidence they are missing something spectacular, here
below. Thanks.

--
Frank ess

PS: I think old Whozis reposts without added content in order to
reinforce his trite signature message. He's bright, but lazy and
demonstrably off-kilter by more than a few degrees.

Today Chrlz commented courteously on the subject at hand

Some selected wisdom from just a single mopar post:

moparAnd, why don't you **** Off!
moparAnd, I owe my allegiance to one country. With one set
moparof spelling, usage, and grammar rules. If you don't
like that, mopartough ****!
moparThe only country that matters to
moparme - The United States of America - does not.
moparChew on that for awhile...
moparYes. We Americans are only 3% of the world's
population moparbut burn up 25%+ of the world's energy.
moparNow whatever simplistic country you're from,
mopar you stay there, I'll stay here. I'll drie (sic)
moparAmerican cars, you drive euro econoboxes for your
narrow moparstreets and socialist government-mandated high
gas taxes. mopar..attempting to get you to see this is a
text book case of mopartrying to reason with a fool.
moparWe kicked the British asses out of /out/ (sic)
country moparin 1783, then after a rough start, kicked
their asses out moparagain not long after 1812. So much
for colonial crap. moparThe /United States/ provided Great
Britain the food, moparoil, war materiale (sic), et al for
/10 years/! moparHad FDR not done that, there would be no
Great Britain mopartoday...
moparSo, twit, don't lecture me about being
American-centric.

..hmm, while on the topic of spelling, is *obnoxious* spelt
with a 'u', as in:

"obnoxious redneck"

But anyway, it's *so* nice to see that despite him telling
us over and over how no-one here is helping him, he has
taken up just about every single suggestion offered and is
now making great progress. He certainly deserves his
success, don't you think?

read and ignored as the insane babble of an idiot, and one who
will now be talking to himself ****ing into the strong wind of
my killfile.

I am an American, and proud of it. I am an American first,
last, always. 100% American in every way. I personally know
and also know via Usenet a number of good people in other
coutnries, and I met same while I was in Europe in my Army
days and again when I went to Germany in 2000 to see Mercedes-
Benz engineers. All of these people are class acts. On Usenet,
on the other hand, the place is filled with people who think
their **** doesn't stink in Canada and Europe, primarily. And,
they all hate the United States, out of sheet green-with-envy
jealously of the high standard of living, personal freedoms,
freedom of choice to buy what I want, and the world's lowest
overall tax rates and world's lowest overall enegery costs.

So, all you anti-Americans - here's another "mopar" for you:
**** You All Very Much! And, stay the **** in your socialist,
high taxation country with your ****-ass micro-box city cars.
Enjoy it, just stay where you are and I'll be delighted to
stay where I am. And, with that, Chrlz, your 5 minutes are up,
and you are gone, gone, gone!

--
ATM, aka Jerry