FZ20 v S1 IS

Here is a comparison chart (I've added two other cameras, both lower in
price than the FZ30) that are similar in features to what you are looking
at. I'd probably forget the FZ3 though because it doesn't have manual focus
and no white balance override/manual which are big downers in my opinion, no
flip-out lcd, crappy movie mode (which wouldn't matter to many but you
indicated you wanted good movies).

http://tinyurl.com/3jjna

The Canon S1 IS and Minolta Z3 both offer excellent movie modes, the
Panasonics lack in that area.

The Canon S1 IS is the only one that offers a flip-out and twirl lcd (very
handy).

The Canon S1 IS is the only one that allows zooming while recording a movie
(very handy)

The Canon S1 IS and Minolta Z3 both have a better minimum shutter speeds of
15secs, while both Panasonics (FZ 3 and FZ20) are only 8 seconds on the
long.

The Panasonics both offer TIFF as the uncompressed file type, but the Canon
S1 IS and Minolta Z3 don't have uncompressed files. Canon S1 IS and Minolta
Z3 offer 3 compression levels for JPEG 2.2, while the Panasonics are limited
to only 2 modes neither of which are super fine so JPEG is pretty much out
of the question.

The Canon S1 IS, Minolta Z3, and Panasonic FZ20 have white balance
override/manual modes (very useful) the Panasonic FZ3 does not. The Canon S1
IS has one extra white balance mode over the others which have only 5 modes.

The Canon S1 IS, and Panasonic FZ3, and FZ20 have better maximum shutter
speeds all are 1/2000 while the Minolta Z3 is only 1/1000.

The Minolta Z3 has superior Macro mode focus at 1cm! The other 3 are limited
to 5cm (Panasonics) and 10cm (Canon).

The Minolta Z3 and Panasonic FZ20 or 4 megapixel, while the Canon S1 IS and
Panasonic FZ3 are only 3.+ megapixel (not that that is much of a difference
really, but it is something).

The Canon S1 IS and Minolta Z3 both have AA batteries (bonus since you
always have access to more if you run out) whereas the Panasonics are
limited to their own battery packs.

The Minolta Z3 and Panasonic FZ20 both have hotshoes for flash, the Canon S1
IS and Panasonic FZ3 don't. (since price is a factor to you, you're not
considering dSLR I figure this is not an issue since flash units don't come
cheap).

All 4 come with adapters for telephoto, I'm not sure about wide angle on the
Panasonics, but yes for the Minolta and Canon.

The Minolta Z3 and Canon S1 IS both have more control over metering (big
plus), Panasonics are limited to Spot and Multi-Segment (big downer).

Minolta Z3 has the new IS system in it, which is rumoured on review sites as
being the best IS system on consumer level cameras to date.

The Minolta Z3 and Canon S1 IS are definitely the lower priced for similar
feature items. Considering all pros and cons I'd suggest you add the Minolta
Z3 as a serious consideration when testing out which feels best in your
hands. I'm not sure the FZ20 is worth the almost $200 dollar difference.

Linda

"Kilroy_Woz_ere" wrote in message
.. .
I've narrowed my choice down to either Panasonic FZ20 or Canon S1 IS.
Price is a factor but better night time, floodlit football photography
would swing the decision as would decent movie capture under the same
conditions. It's main use would be at football so 90+ minutes of battery
life is essential taking approx 100 photos and 20 movies.

As far as I'm aware (correct me if I'm wrong), both have aperture &
shutter pririoty control manual control and decent ultra-zoom lenses. I've
read many reviews on both but not being camera-literate, the more I read
the harder the decision gets.

In my pure amateur mind, the benefits I see for each a

FZ20 - decent resolution, better zoom, decent lense, li-ion battery and it
uses SD cards which I already have for my pocket pc - otherwise it would
put it out of my budget.
S1 IS - silent zoom, zoom while recording movie. What I don't like are the
AA batteries and not being able to use my existing SD cards.

It's not an easy choice, at today's online prices the S1 even having to
buy decent rechargeables and CF card comes in quite a bit cheaper than the
FZ20 which appears to be on back order anywhere selling it at a decent
price (GBP330-340).

Be gentle, I'm an amateur but I need help deciding!

Kilry aka Brian

Linda_N wrote:
[]

[much good stuff snipped]

The Panasonics both offer TIFF as the uncompressed file type, but the
Canon S1 IS and Minolta Z3 don't have uncompressed files. Canon S1 IS
and Minolta Z3 offer 3 compression levels for JPEG 2.2, while the
Panasonics are limited to only 2 modes neither of which are super
fine so JPEG is pretty much out of the question.

With respect, I must disagree. Have you actually seen images taken using
either compression level from a Panasonic FZ20? "Super-fine" has no
meaning in an absolute sense - just in a "good better best" sense. It
depends on the needs of the purchaser whether or not JPEG, and at what
quality setting, is or is not suitable for their needs. If you want a
reasonable number of pictures per card, anything /other than/ JPEG is
pretty much out of the question! TIFF as a "raw" format is useless,
though.

[]
The Minolta Z3 and Panasonic FZ20 or 4 megapixel, while the Canon S1
IS and Panasonic FZ3 are only 3.+ megapixel (not that that is much of
a difference really, but it is something).

The FZ20 is 5MP

The Canon S1 IS and Minolta Z3 both have AA batteries (bonus since you
always have access to more if you run out) whereas the Panasonics are
limited to their own battery packs.

Depends on whether you are a wise or foolish person and carry spare
batteries. Having struggled to juggle 8 AA cells versus two single-cell
packs I know which I prefer to use in the field. I do agree there is an
advantage that you can go and get AA cells from a shop if you are stuck.

[]
All 4 come with adapters for telephoto, I'm not sure about wide angle
on the Panasonics, but yes for the Minolta and Canon.

Yes, the FZ20 can take a wide-angle adpater.

[]

Cheers,
David

"Kilroy_Woz_ere" writes:

I've narrowed my choice down to either Panasonic FZ20 or Canon S1 IS. Price
is a factor but better night time, floodlit football photography would swing
the decision as would decent movie capture under the same conditions. It's
main use would be at football so 90+ minutes of battery life is essential
taking approx 100 photos and 20 movies.

As far as I'm aware (correct me if I'm wrong), both have aperture & shutter
pririoty control manual control and decent ultra-zoom lenses. I've read many
reviews on both but not being camera-literate, the more I read the harder
the decision gets.

In my pure amateur mind, the benefits I see for each a

FZ20 - decent resolution, better zoom, decent lense, li-ion battery and it
uses SD cards which I already have for my pocket pc - otherwise it would put
it out of my budget.
S1 IS - silent zoom, zoom while recording movie. What I don't like are the
AA batteries and not being able to use my existing SD cards.

I've seen references to a Minolta SD-CF converter that would allow you to use
SD cards in a CF camera. I've had no problems with AA rechargables on my
Olympus C-2100UZ, and now I use an external battery (Digipower DPS-9000), that
between them will give me roughly 7 hours of shooting (~ 600 shots).

--
Michael Meissner
email:
http://www.the-meissners.org

"Linda_N" writes:

Here is a comparison chart (I've added two other cameras, both lower in
price than the FZ30) that are similar in features to what you are looking
at. I'd probably forget the FZ3 though because it doesn't have manual focus
and no white balance override/manual which are big downers in my opinion, no
flip-out lcd, crappy movie mode (which wouldn't matter to many but you
indicated you wanted good movies).

http://tinyurl.com/3jjna

One more thing. The S1 has an orientation sensor which means smart download
software can automatically rotate the picture to the way you held the camera
(ie, portrait or landscape orientations). The one thing the sensor evidently
won't handle is if you have take pictures upside down (for example, mounted on
a tripod with the center column reversed).

--
Michael Meissner
email:
http://www.the-meissners.org

Here is a comparison chart (I've added two other cameras, both lower in
price than the FZ30) that are similar in features to what you are looking
at. I'd probably forget the FZ3 though because it doesn't have manual
focus and no white balance override/manual which are big downers in my
opinion, no flip-out lcd, crappy movie mode (which wouldn't matter to many
but you indicated you wanted good movies).

http://tinyurl.com/3jjna

Information overload!

Linda, that took some time and all your effort is much appreciated. The late
starter, Minolta Z3, looks like it's become the favourite. SD card so I can
use the ones I've got, IS, 12x zoom and I'm even warming to the idea of AA
batteries.

Interesting comment about price, in the UK, converted to dollars, the
difference between Z3 and FZ20 is only about $100.

"Michael Meissner" wrote in message
...
"Linda_N" writes:

Here is a comparison chart (I've added two other cameras, both lower in
price than the FZ30) that are similar in features to what you are looking
at. I'd probably forget the FZ3 though because it doesn't have manual
focus
and no white balance override/manual which are big downers in my opinion,
no
flip-out lcd, crappy movie mode (which wouldn't matter to many but you
indicated you wanted good movies).

http://tinyurl.com/3jjna

One more thing. The S1 has an orientation sensor which means smart
download
software can automatically rotate the picture to the way you held the
camera
(ie, portrait or landscape orientations). The one thing the sensor
evidently
won't handle is if you have take pictures upside down (for example,
mounted on
a tripod with the center column reversed).

--
Good point, Michael. That is a good feature that as of yet is not common
place on low cost digicams.

PS: Your example should have been 'for example, when you are standing on
your head taking pictures.' hehehe.

Linda

"Kilroy_Woz_ere" wrote in message
...
Here is a comparison chart (I've added two other cameras, both lower in
price than the FZ30) that are similar in features to what you are looking
at. I'd probably forget the FZ3 though because it doesn't have manual
focus and no white balance override/manual which are big downers in my
opinion, no flip-out lcd, crappy movie mode (which wouldn't matter to
many but you indicated you wanted good movies).

http://tinyurl.com/3jjna

Information overload!

Linda, that took some time and all your effort is much appreciated. The
late starter, Minolta Z3, looks like it's become the favourite. SD card so
I can use the ones I've got, IS, 12x zoom and I'm even warming to the idea
of AA batteries.

Interesting comment about price, in the UK, converted to dollars, the
difference between Z3 and FZ20 is only about $100.
Interesting enough I learned a few things about the Minolta Z3 while
compiling those points that I was not aware of. It seems to be the most
featured 'low cost' digi-cam out there. Prior to this I thought the S1 IS
was the one that fit the category the best. Although all 3 (S1 IS, Z3 and
FZ20 or good buys).

I say $200 price difference because my rule for buying online is ignore the
lowest prices, ignore the highest prices, and narrow the choices down to
those falling in the middle price range. If I took the lowest the difference
between the two cameras does become less. I've never been ripped off buying
on line using my middle priced reseller policy (along with common sense
observations like having toll-free customer service and sales, having a
professionally designed web site that is not riddled with errors and price
conflicts, old items off the site or moved to the bargin bin area, etc...)

Linda

"David J Taylor"
wrote in message news
Linda_N wrote:
[]

[much good stuff snipped]

The Panasonics both offer TIFF as the uncompressed file type, but the
Canon S1 IS and Minolta Z3 don't have uncompressed files. Canon S1 IS
and Minolta Z3 offer 3 compression levels for JPEG 2.2, while the
Panasonics are limited to only 2 modes neither of which are super
fine so JPEG is pretty much out of the question.

With respect, I must disagree. Have you actually seen images taken using
either compression level from a Panasonic FZ20? "Super-fine" has no
meaning in an absolute sense - just in a "good better best" sense. It
depends on the needs of the purchaser whether or not JPEG, and at what
quality setting, is or is not suitable for their needs. If you want a
reasonable number of pictures per card, anything /other than/ JPEG is
pretty much out of the question! TIFF as a "raw" format is useless,
though.

You are right that TIFFs are very large and a poor replacement for RAW, but
for the Panasonic Z10 TIFF is the only way to go if you want high quality.
I've not seen JPEGs in 'Fine' mode from the FZ20 yet and it is possible that
Panasonic changed the JPEG algorythm they use. The algorythm for the 'Fine'
quality JPEG with the FZ10 does not handle saturated reds well. There is a
fair amount of visible color bleeding in normal view (not zoomed in).
Zooming in reveals much artifacting throughout the color range of the photo,
but zooming in is a moot point since at normal view the artifacting cannot
be detected by the eye alone. I'd not want to upsize those JPEG images
though because even JPEGs coming from cameras utilizing better algorythms
the upsizing leads to image degradation. The hidden artifacting on the
Panasonic JPEGs would become visible in the latter senerio, moreso than a
JPEG from a camera that has that extra low compression mode.

I think the point is that the Minolta Z3 and the Canon S1 IS both have Extra
Fine, Fine, Regular/Standard, whereas the Panasonic has TIFF so it only
needs Fine and Standard as the JPEG modes. The Canon and Minolta forego RAW
in exchange for an additional higher quality JPEG mode to serve as the RAW
replacement mode. Most consumer level cameras that have RAW or TIFF would
not bother with implementing a 'Super Fine' JPEG mode because if the
consumer is not pleased with Fine or Standard mode they switch to TIFF or
RAW. The Extra Fine mode of the S1 IS and F3 is the closest to RAW or TIFF
without having RAW or TIFF.

RAW is always my choice when I want high quality, TIFF is way too large
although the quality is equal to that of RAW. Canon RAW (and I think the
same holds true for Nikon NEF) uses 16-bit data in capturing so using the
space hog TIFF makes no sense to me since the only benefit in the past of
using TIFF was its 16-bit data. RAW does that while saving on space.

[]
The Minolta Z3 and Panasonic FZ20 or 4 megapixel, while the Canon S1
IS and Panasonic FZ3 are only 3.+ megapixel (not that that is much of
a difference really, but it is something).

The FZ20 is 5MP


Right you are, sorry about the error. 2 resolution jumps is a large one
(bearing in mind that I think anything above 6mps is a total waste of time
for anyone without a large poster width printer [$10,000+ cha-ching]
machine.)

The Canon S1 IS and Minolta Z3 both have AA batteries (bonus since you
always have access to more if you run out) whereas the Panasonics are
limited to their own battery packs.

Depends on whether you are a wise or foolish person and carry spare
batteries. Having struggled to juggle 8 AA cells versus two single-cell
packs I know which I prefer to use in the field. I do agree there is an
advantage that you can go and get AA cells from a shop if you are stuck.

I think the size of 4 AA batteries (4 are in camera already) is a rather
small point. Even with small hands handling 4 AAs causes no strain at all,
all fit into a pocket, and all 4 are as light (if not lighter) than the
weight of a proprietory battery pack. If I misplace an AA or 2 or 4 I'm not
going to worry, however, if I misplace a proprietory battery pack the
'cha-ching' starts sounding. If a set of AA rechargeables goes dead I can
immediately replace them (on a Sunday too!) for a lot less which I can't do
as cheaply if my more expensive proprietory battery explodes or otherwise
dies. AAs are the same shape and size today as they were 20 years ago, but
proprietory battery packs are in constant flux (transition to be made
smaller) and what is in 'fad' today may not be readily available in 2 years,
going to special order directly through the manufacturer only, or worse,
simply discontinued when the camera it was designed for goes offline. My
next camera is going to have to take both AAs and battery pack.

All 4 come with adapters for telephoto, I'm not sure about wide angle
on the Panasonics, but yes for the Minolta and Canon.

Yes, the FZ20 can take a wide-angle adpater.

I figured it would, but was too lazy to check and didn't want to sound
definite when I wasn't.

Linda

Linda_N wrote:
[]
You are right that TIFFs are very large and a poor replacement for
RAW, but for the Panasonic Z10 TIFF is the only way to go if you want
high quality. I've not seen JPEGs in 'Fine' mode from the FZ20 yet
and it is possible that Panasonic changed the JPEG algorythm they
use. The algorythm for the 'Fine' quality JPEG with the FZ10 does not
handle saturated reds well. There is a fair amount of visible color
bleeding in normal view (not zoomed in). Zooming in reveals much
artifacting throughout the color range of the photo, but zooming in
is a moot point since at normal view the artifacting cannot be
detected by the eye alone. I'd not want to upsize those JPEG images
though because even JPEGs coming from cameras utilizing better
algorythms the upsizing leads to image degradation. The hidden
artifacting on the Panasonic JPEGs would become visible in the latter
senerio, moreso than a JPEG from a camera that has that extra low
compression mode.

I must look out for such errors on the FZ20 - none have been noticable on
casual inspection, and our pictures are viewed on the screen rather than
being printed - at least most of the time.

I think the point is that the Minolta Z3 and the Canon S1 IS both
have Extra Fine, Fine, Regular/Standard, whereas the Panasonic has
TIFF so it only needs Fine and Standard as the JPEG modes. The Canon
and Minolta forego RAW in exchange for an additional higher quality
JPEG mode to serve as the RAW replacement mode. Most consumer level
cameras that have RAW or TIFF would not bother with implementing a
'Super Fine' JPEG mode because if the consumer is not pleased with
Fine or Standard mode they switch to TIFF or RAW. The Extra Fine mode
of the S1 IS and F3 is the closest to RAW or TIFF without having RAW
or TIFF.

If that's the reason, then it makes sense. Mind you, at normal viewing
distances I have yet to see any differences between "fine" and "normal"
from the Nikon Coolpix 5700 and 990, and only just noticeable differences
between "normal" and "basic". Yes, if you zoom in more than 1:1 you can
see things, but if you don't normally view that way then perhaps you just
save the lower-compression modes for those extra-special pictures....

[]
I think the size of 4 AA batteries (4 are in camera already) is a
rather small point. Even with small hands handling 4 AAs causes no
strain at all, all fit into a pocket, and all 4 are as light (if not
lighter) than the weight of a proprietory battery pack.

It's the inconvenience of juggling with 8 objects rather than two.

If I misplace
an AA or 2 or 4 I'm not going to worry, however, if I misplace a
proprietory battery pack the 'cha-ching' starts sounding.

I hope there's no chance of misplaced batteries coming into contact with
anything metal.. to me that's another worry of 4 x AA. Yes, the single
pack lithium do have both contacts at the same end, though!

If a set of
AA rechargeables goes dead I can immediately replace them (on a
Sunday too!) for a lot less which I can't do as cheaply if my more
expensive proprietory battery explodes or otherwise dies. AAs are the
same shape and size today as they were 20 years ago, but proprietory
battery packs are in constant flux (transition to be made smaller)
and what is in 'fad' today may not be readily available in 2 years,
going to special order directly through the manufacturer only, or
worse, simply discontinued when the camera it was designed for goes
offline. My next camera is going to have to take both AAs and battery
pack.
[]
Linda

Yes, a lot of cameras offer both LiIon and a battery pack. There are
sometimes problems reported due to AAs being made to different standard
sizes - failure to make proper contact is a typical problem report.
Fortunately, these reports are few and far between.

Lack of replacement parts in the future could be a problem - perhaps
consumers should be forcing a standard on the manufacturers?

Cheers,
David

"Linda_N" wrote in message
...
Krippers, you were not joking when you said you were ready to purchase!
hehehe. I thought you would have at least taken a few more days to
research, get your hands on a few models etc... I have a funny feeling you
will be very happy with your purchase though because the more I read about
the Z3 the more I think it is a great all around consumer camera.

I look forward to seeing your gallery of Z3 shots. Remember for action
shots require higher shutter speeds (depending on how fast the subject is
moving of course). If you are really happy I might shop around the stores
here to see what kind of deal I can get on the Z3 for a general purpose,
low bulk/weight carry around.

Linda

I've spent about a month looking around, strangely enough I started off
looking at the Z3 and moved on, can't remember why now, possibly price at
the time maybe my good friend trying to convince me to buy a 10D distracted
me. The deal I got was worth it, GBP297 for Z3, 12 NiMh and 2 chargers
(because of offers in store, cheaper than 1 charger and 8 NiMh). It's also
good news that the camera doesn't touch anything already on my SD card, it
just creates the folders it needs. Putting the SD back into pocket pc, all
the pics are there to mess around with.

Brian