Using Kodak Rapid Fix

Fountainhead wrote:
In article , says...


Alan Smithee wrote:

I have the rapid fix kit which makes a US gallon. If I mix it at working
strength for fixing film do I just dilute it 1:1 for paper? Thx.


It tells you on the box how to mix for film and paper.

If you choose to add the hardener, do not use for paper.


Sorry to dredge this thread up again, but why is everyone saying NOT to
use the hardener for paper? Kodak's instructions call for the hardener
for both film and paper, and I've always used it this way. It it merely
unnecessary, or actually detrimental in some way?

BTW, my method of mixing/using Rapid Fix was simply to mix the gallon at
film strength, then move 1/2 gallon to one jug (for film) and mix the
other 1/2 gallon with an additional 1/2 gallon of water (for paper). So
I'd end up with 1/2 gallon of film fixer, and 1 gallon of paper fixer.
Seems easy to me, but then maybe I don't know what I'm doing.

The selling point for hardener was that it guarded the emulsion of the
film/paper against scratches. But in many years of leaving the hardener
out, I've never had damaged emulsions, even with fairly vigorous
handling. And hardener does cause the emulsion to retain the fixer,
thus necessitating much longer washes, even with pre-wash treatment in
hypo-clearing agents. Hardener also makes spotting prints much more
difficult. The spotting fluid doesn't penetrate the emulsion as quickly
or as evenly as it does on a non-hardened print. Your method of mixing
seems fine. Just leave out the hardener.

LR Kalajainen wrote

Your method of mixing
seems fine. Just leave out the hardener.


Why a film strength AND a paper strength? Have you ever
puzzled over that?
I know that fixer at almost any dilution will fix as long
as there is enough of the A. or S. Thiosulfate in whatever
volume of water to do the job.
In a nut shell film will tolerate a much more silvered
fix than paper. Ilford says 8 to 10 grams/liter while paper's
max is 2 grams/liter.
Do you think I'm correct? Dan

(Dan Quinn) wrote

LR Kalajainen wrote

Your method of mixing
seems fine. Just leave out the hardener.


Why a film strength AND a paper strength? Have you ever
puzzled over that?
I know that fixer at almost any dilution will fix as long
as there is enough of the A. or S. Thiosulfate, in whatever
volume of water, to do the job.
In a nut shell film will tolerate a much more silvered
fix than paper. Ilford says 8 to 10 grams/liter while paper's
max is 2 grams/liter.
Do you think I'm correct? Dan


Another thing I've puzzled over is that per liter mentioned
above. A liter of what? They never say. Two sources, Haist and
Ilford give no clue.
I've concluded it is just that; per liter of fixer. It can be
sodium or ammonium, 1:3, 4, 7, 9, 24, or even my print strength
1:31 with the ammonium.
Safe levels of silver in all but very dilute fixers are less
than either S. or A. Thiosulfate's capacity.
In practice that explains why A. Thio. has no more capacity
than S. Thio.; because of those safe levels. Dan

Dan Quinn wrote:

(Dan Quinn) wrote

LR Kalajainen wrote

Your method of mixing
seems fine. Just leave out the hardener.


Why a film strength AND a paper strength? Have you ever
puzzled over that?

paper fixes faster than film...

I know that fixer at almost any dilution will fix as long
as there is enough of the A. or S. Thiosulfate, in whatever
volume of water, to do the job.
In a nut shell film will tolerate a much more silvered
fix than paper. Ilford says 8 to 10 grams/liter while paper's
max is 2 grams/liter.
Do you think I'm correct? Dan


Another thing I've puzzled over is that per liter mentioned
above. A liter of what? They never say. Two sources, Haist and
Ilford give no clue.
I've concluded it is just that; per liter of fixer. It can be
sodium or ammonium, 1:3, 4, 7, 9, 24, or even my print strength
1:31 with the ammonium.
Safe levels of silver in all but very dilute fixers are less
than either S. or A. Thiosulfate's capacity.
In practice that explains why A. Thio. has no more capacity
than S. Thio.; because of those safe levels. Dan

I never thought of it as a matter of capacity, but of rapidity.
A. thio fixes faster than S. thio, and film strength fixes
faster than paper strength. This is also why when you use
film strength for paper fixes faster...

I'd never thought about film strength vs. paper strength. I'd always
assumed, perhaps wrongly, that it had something to do with fixing time,
but as I think about it, that doesn't make much sense. Is there more
undissolved silver in a film emulsion than in paper?

If I were to mix a much weaker film strength solution what would be the
results on both time and capacity? For film, I could see a one-shot
working well, but it would be rather inconvenient for paper processing
to have to dump the tray and refill it after each print.



Dan Quinn wrote:

(Dan Quinn) wrote


LR Kalajainen wrote


Your method of mixing
seems fine. Just leave out the hardener.



Why a film strength AND a paper strength? Have you ever
puzzled over that?
I know that fixer at almost any dilution will fix as long
as there is enough of the A. or S. Thiosulfate, in whatever
volume of water, to do the job.
In a nut shell film will tolerate a much more silvered
fix than paper. Ilford says 8 to 10 grams/liter while paper's
max is 2 grams/liter.
Do you think I'm correct? Dan




Another thing I've puzzled over is that per liter mentioned
above. A liter of what? They never say. Two sources, Haist and
Ilford give no clue.
I've concluded it is just that; per liter of fixer. It can be
sodium or ammonium, 1:3, 4, 7, 9, 24, or even my print strength
1:31 with the ammonium.
Safe levels of silver in all but very dilute fixers are less
than either S. or A. Thiosulfate's capacity.
In practice that explains why A. Thio. has no more capacity
than S. Thio.; because of those safe levels. Dan

LR Kalajainen wrote:

snip..
... For film, I could see a one-shot
working well, but it would be rather inconvenient for paper processing
to have to dump the tray and refill it after each print.

Which is what Dan does, if I understand. Inconvenience is
perhaps a state of mind if one is minimalist :-)

Dan Quinn wrote:

(Dan Quinn) wrote


LR Kalajainen wrote


Your method of mixing
seems fine. Just leave out the hardener.



Why a film strength AND a paper strength? Have you ever
puzzled over that?
I know that fixer at almost any dilution will fix as long
as there is enough of the A. or S. Thiosulfate, in whatever
volume of water, to do the job.
In a nut shell film will tolerate a much more silvered
fix than paper. Ilford says 8 to 10 grams/liter while paper's
max is 2 grams/liter.
Do you think I'm correct? Dan




Another thing I've puzzled over is that per liter mentioned
above. A liter of what? They never say. Two sources, Haist and
Ilford give no clue.
I've concluded it is just that; per liter of fixer. It can be
sodium or ammonium, 1:3, 4, 7, 9, 24, or even my print strength
1:31 with the ammonium.
Safe levels of silver in all but very dilute fixers are less
than either S. or A. Thiosulfate's capacity.
In practice that explains why A. Thio. has no more capacity
than S. Thio.; because of those safe levels. Dan

hardener makes spotting of prints more difficult (spottone will just sit on
surface rather than penetrate) and increases wash time for adequate removal
of fixer (not so much of a problem if hypoclear is used). it also tends to
make fiber-based paper curl up more which can make it difficult to handle.
i use fixer w hardener on work prints on rc. finals get no hardener and
extra washing just to be safe.
film always gets hardener.
good luck and happy printing!
-c.

"Fountainhead" wrote in message
...
In article , says...


Alan Smithee wrote:

I have the rapid fix kit which makes a US gallon. If I mix it at
working
strength for fixing film do I just dilute it 1:1 for paper? Thx.


It tells you on the box how to mix for film and paper.

If you choose to add the hardener, do not use for paper.

Sorry to dredge this thread up again, but why is everyone saying NOT to
use the hardener for paper? Kodak's instructions call for the hardener
for both film and paper, and I've always used it this way. It it merely
unnecessary, or actually detrimental in some way?

BTW, my method of mixing/using Rapid Fix was simply to mix the gallon at
film strength, then move 1/2 gallon to one jug (for film) and mix the
other 1/2 gallon with an additional 1/2 gallon of water (for paper). So
I'd end up with 1/2 gallon of film fixer, and 1 gallon of paper fixer.
Seems easy to me, but then maybe I don't know what I'm doing.

hardener makes spotting of prints more difficult (spottone will just sit on
surface rather than penetrate) and increases wash time for adequate removal
of fixer (not so much of a problem if hypoclear is used). it also tends to
make fiber-based paper curl up more which can make it difficult to handle.
i use fixer w hardener on work prints on rc. finals get no hardener and
extra washing just to be safe.
film always gets hardener.
good luck and happy printing!
-c.

"Fountainhead" wrote in message
...
In article , says...


Alan Smithee wrote:

I have the rapid fix kit which makes a US gallon. If I mix it at
working
strength for fixing film do I just dilute it 1:1 for paper? Thx.


It tells you on the box how to mix for film and paper.

If you choose to add the hardener, do not use for paper.

Sorry to dredge this thread up again, but why is everyone saying NOT to
use the hardener for paper? Kodak's instructions call for the hardener
for both film and paper, and I've always used it this way. It it merely
unnecessary, or actually detrimental in some way?

BTW, my method of mixing/using Rapid Fix was simply to mix the gallon at
film strength, then move 1/2 gallon to one jug (for film) and mix the
other 1/2 gallon with an additional 1/2 gallon of water (for paper). So
I'd end up with 1/2 gallon of film fixer, and 1 gallon of paper fixer.
Seems easy to me, but then maybe I don't know what I'm doing.