Tech Support?

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

the mere fact that the ipad shows up in the usb device tree is proof
(and i doubt you know what that means).

Of course Peter wouldn't know what that means. He doesn't use a Mac &
he doesn't own an iPad.

one does not need to own a mac or an ipad to understand how usb works.

he doesn't know what it means because he's non-technical and won't
admit when he's in over his head.

This might help;
https://db.tt/Nb6dRzVh

it might.

It doesn't help Peter when he's up against someone who is prepared to
bull**** their way through an argument.

i'm not bull****ting anything.

Nospam knows very well that what I said about the Lightning port not
being USB compliant was correct but you will never get him to admit
it.

this isn't about the *port*.

it's about whether an ipad is usb compliant, and it is. this is a fact,
which the above screen shot clearly proves.

What! The whole iPad?

yes, the whole ipad.

You are daft.

not as much as you.

did you really think only a portion of the ipad is compliant but not
all of it? maybe only the left half of it?

you don't think apple is forging a vendor/device id, do you? the usb-if
does not take kindly to that. just ask palm.

No I don't. What gave you the idea I did?

all i'm saying is if they have a valid vendor/device id, then it's usb
compliant. the usb-if does not hand out ids just for the asking.

and for those who don't recall what palm did, they stole apple's usb
vendor/device id so that a palm pre would appear as an apple ipod and
letting it sync with itunes, without palm needing to write their own
sync software. not cool.

not surprisingly, the usb-if was not amused, nor was apple. apple
quickly blocked it with an update, but that didn't stop palm. they
spoofed that a second time, which was blocked again. really not cool.

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

This might help;
https://db.tt/Nb6dRzVh

I'm afraid that doesn't deal with the point at issue which is whether
or not the Lightning port is USB compliant as it stands. The fact is
that is it not so compliant and requires an external adaptor to make
it so.

the issue is if the *device* is compliant, which it is.

The issue has always been whether or not the *port* is compliant and
it isn't.

no it hasn't.

just because the lightning port is more capable and better designed
than a microusb port doesn't change the fact that the ipad is not a usb
compliant device.

a microusb port couldn't do what is needed. apple had to make a better
one.

And a very clever one. It's a port which can emulate a large number of
connections if you use the appropriate external device.

and very future proof.

In article 2013100415502875249-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom,
Savageduck wrote:

You must not have ever driven towing a trailer. I've driven many
miles towing a boat and never been bothered by hills or curves.

tell that to those who jackknifed. even experienced tractor-trailer
drivers can jackknife.

and what hills? you live in florida.

In Florida speed bumps are considered hills.

You probably know this, but you don't jackknife taking a curve. You
jackknife because you brake hard and fast...even on a straight, flat
road.

and you probably know this, but you can't go as fast on a curve as on
straight roads, which means you need to brake prior to the curve,
sometimes by quite a bit. otherwise you'll have bigger problems than
just a jackknife.

you also may need to brake on a downgrade, which is why there are
runaway ramps.

Downgrade in Florida?
Curves in Florida?
Runaway truck ramps in Florida?

that's my point. there might be some curves, but other than that,
nothing particularly difficult.

Try North bound I-5 over the Tejon Pass, better known as the "Grapevine".

as i recall, the grapevine is relatively straight.

i5 thru the siskiyous has a lot of turns, with speed zones so those
turns can safely be negotiated, or it's off the road you go.

it's a bit of a challenge even in a car, let alone towing something or
driving a tractor-trailer.

In article , Tony Cooper
wrote:

An experienced driver downshifts, not brakes, going down a hill,
but I can't think of a hill in Florida where a passenger car would do
that.

an experienced driver knows when to use brakes and when to downshift.
sometimes you might need *both*. there is no one correct answer for all
situations.

at pike's peak in colorado (elevation 14,114'), all vehicles must stop
for a temperature check of the brakes before they let you continue
further. if the brakes are above a certain temperature, you have to
pull off the road and wait until they cool.

you don't get to say "i'll just use 1st gear" and continue on.

also keep in mind that replacing brakes is cheaper than replacing a
transmission.

On Sat, 05 Oct 2013 00:47:06 -0400, nospam
wrote:

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

who wants to have hard drives hanging off their mobile devices? it
makes the devices non-mobile. it's stupid.

S'funny. I have a hard drive and some stuff even larger hanging of my
iPad whenever I back it up, synchronise it etc.

no you don't.

what you might have is an ipad plugged into a computer's usb port
(since it supports usb), and the *computer* has a hard drive attached
to *it*. backups and syncing is done via software on the computer,
namely itunes.

but you don't need to do that. you can backup and sync *without*
tethering it to a computer.

apple added wifi syncing a couple of years ago because people didn't
want to plug it into a computer all the time, for the reason i gave.

they also added icloud backups which makes it even easier since you
don't need a computer or a hard drive at all (itunes has to be running
for wifi sync). it's all automatic, as it should be.

How do I run iTunes without a computer.

exactly my point.

you have it connected to a computer, not a hard drive.

iTunes is the subject.

no, the subject is whether an ipad is usb compliant or not.

don't try to change the subject.

I'm not changing the subject. I'm trying to get an answer to the
question just six lines above "How do I run I tunes without a
computer?"

you don't. that much should be obvious.

So obvious that you don't have the courage to answer what should be a
quite straight forward question.


What's the range of the iPad's WiFi link.

depends on the wifi network.

Whatever it is I am still effectively tethered to the computer.

you aren't tethered when on wifi. tether means cable.

Running your own unique word meanings again?

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tethering

"Tethering refers to connecting one device to another. In the
context of mobile phones or Internet tablets, tethering allows
sharing the Internet connection of the phone or tablet with other
devices such as laptops. Connection of the phone or tablet with
other devices can be done over wireless LAN (Wi-Fi), over
Bluetooth or by physical connection using a cable, for example
through USB."

"If tethering is done over Wi-Fi, the feature may be branded as a
Mobile Hotspot."

this may come to you as surprise, but words can have more than one
meaning.

What! Tethering does not mean "connecting one device to another"? You
surprise me. What does it mean to you in the context of iPads and
computers?

tethering a device can mean two things, tethered to a computer via a
cable or tethered to a mobile hotspot acting as an internet gateway.

I need to help you with your reading again.

"In the context of mobile phones or Internet tablets, tethering
allows sharing the Internet connection of the phone or tablet with
other devices such as laptops. Connection of the phone or tablet
with other devices can be done over wireless LAN (Wi-Fi), over
Bluetooth or by physical connection using a cable ... ".

An iPad can be tethered to a computer by a "wireless LAN (Wi-Fi)", but
I'm sure you really know that.

wifi-only ipads would need to do the latter, but any device can do the
former.

a camera that directly sends its output to a computer over a cable is
called tethered, and it uses a cable:

http://diyphotography.net/introduction-tethered-shooting
Usually, the camera and computer are connected by cable, hence
tethering.

in other words, my use of the word tether is correct, and you are once
again, arguing over nothing.

.... and when using Wi-Fi to update (or whatever) an iPad one is
effectively tethered to the computer. This is the point I previously
made which you are so reluctant to acknowledge.

what you cite is an entirely different form of tethering, unrelated to
what is being discussed. i'm not talking about mobile hotspots and
using a phone as a gateway.

Neither am I.

I am referring to connecting one device to another.

as am i, thus the word tether.

I'm glad you got that far.

i'm talking about having it attached to a computer via a cord which
can't be removed or whatever process happening on the computer will
fail. that is called being tethered.

Cords? That's old fashioned. Modern systems don't use cords.

that's right, they don't. even charging can be done wirelessly now.

Yep. Some of the leading work comes out of Auckland.

however, wireless has not totally replaced cords. yet.

you are once again, nitpicking inconsequential details just to argue.

I'm trying to (hopelessly) point out to you the inconsistencies in
what you are saying.

there aren't any inconsistencies other than the ones you dream up by
nitpicking every word. that's why you are failing at it.

Well, have laboriously got to the point where you acknowledge that
when updating via iTunes an iPad is effectively tethered to computer,
even when the updating is done by Wi-Fi.

Come to think of it, I
have even more stuff hanging off it when I plug it into the wall of
my
house when I want to charge. You want to try walking around with a
house attached, especially when you are inside the house!

charging obviously needs to be tethered, but it can be done when the
ipad is *not* in use, such as overnight.

But I want to use my iPad at night!

then charge it during the day.

I didn't say 'only at night'.

I want to use my iPad anytime both night and day.

when do you sleep? do you sleep? that's when you charge it.

To late. It's gone flat before then.

you use an ipad 10+ hours a day, non-stop?

Between me and my wife, we can easily top that.

my ipad typically lasts a week. i certainly don't need to charge it
every day. i plug it in when i'm done with it if it's low enough to
matter, and it charges while i'm sleeping or out doing something else.

i don't even need to charge my phone every day and that sees a lot more
use.

the ipad will easily last more than a day in typical use (usually
several days), so there's rarely a need to charge it while using it
(although you can, of course).

the point is the battery lasts many days in normal use and you *will*
have to sleep at some point. charge it then.

ipads last well in excess of a day on battery in continuous use (which
means several days in typical use) so there's almost never a reason to
charge it while actually using it.

in other words, the lack of mobility while charging is a non-issue.

So how is that lack of mobility when charging is a non-issue but lack
of mobility when PeterN want's to do his thing is a BIG issue?

because he's not sleeping at the time.

But I may be awake when charging becomes necessary!

you might be. so what?

Then I'm tied to the wall of my house.

only for a brief time.

you do spend time indoors, do you not? maybe sitting on the couch
watching tv? plug it in then. or, as i said, plug it in and then go to
sleep.

But I want to go away.

it's not worth the bother to support. there are far more important
things to do than satisfy a couple of people who don't understand
mobile devices.

"Don't understand" = "Want's to do somethhing you don't want to do"

or more accurately, 'is trying to get it to do things for which it was
not designed and wondering why it isn't working.'

All it lacks is the software.

it doesn't matter what it lacks. it's not designed to do certain things
and trying to get it to do those things is not going to meet with much
success.

I'm sure that's nonsense.

based on what?

A quick walk down the aisle of an aircraft. Mind you, it was in a
hangar for service at the time.

then it doesn't count. it only qualifies while above 10k feet and over
land. didn't you know that?

next time, try reading apple's developer documentation.

All it requires is the right app and PeterN
can supply the necessary external hardware.

if you're so sure it can be done and so sure that there's a big market
for this particular feature, why don't you write such an app?

Because _I_ have no desire for such an app.

then why are you ranting about how important such an app is?

But I'm not. If I'm ranting (which I doubt) its about the way you will
twist and turn in your attempts to avoid acknowledging that PeterN's
complaint may have some merit.r

this may come to you as a surprise, but apple did not design the
ipad just for peter.

Or for you.

i never said it was designed for me. it's designed for the masses.

Some of whom would no doubt want to do what PeterN wants to do.

very, very few.

How do you know? Have you been flying again?

by paying attention to the industry and looking at analytics data.

What data. Do tell.

here's one, from mixpanel, an analytics company, showing what people
actually do with their tablets, both ipad and android:
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/S6bkuPjV4pPhyjhXfUvuw5-soIZMveDe_5DT7u9BK9I_UiSDdElSe9EaSRc64AnWJEfqlpEue y_k7245acwOiht02Ql6C6mExh6hRgihh_g5h4w_oOcTOnlt

Do keep up. That page deals with what people actually do. PeterN's
problem is what he want's to do but can't.

You see this as a problem which you wish to avoid. Other people would
see it as an opportunity.

most people don't care. they realize what the ipad is good at and what
it's not good at and choose accordingly.

That's why so many apps have been written to do things which were not
built into the original device.

none of those can add features that are impossible to do.

What's impossible in what PeterN wants to do?

connecting two hard drives and a card reader to an ipad and then moving
photos between them.

But that's not what he wanted. See Message-ID:
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2013 19:43:13 -0400
in which he wrote:

"Indeed, I considred using a iPad to transfer files from my CF
cards toa portable hard drive. The Apple people told me it
couldn't be done. it does have s conversion unit, but
that doesn't function like USB."

.... and its all gone from there.

Some enterprising person invented the towing hitch.

cars don't come with towing hitches.

Very astute of you to notice that.

in other words, a car is not a good choice for moving a piano, as i
said.

Maybe so, but I've done it.

not without adding equipment to the car, you didn't.

Quite true, but I've still done it.

i didn't say it was impossible. i said a car is not designed for the
task, and it isn't.

My car doesn't care within reason what it is towing. I've done many
hundreds of miles towing a three ton 22' boat and trailer.

that means you have to add a hitch to the car, which also must be done
properly to not damage the car and not come off unexpectedly (i.e.,
have a mechanic do it).

Computers used to be like that. Now you can do almost anything of
which the device is capable just by writing a suitable 'app'.

you could always write an app for a computer, even decades ago.

But it's not possible to write a suitable one for the iPad today, so
you say.

there were plenty of things that were not possible for older computers
either.

everything has limitations.

Why can't what PeterN wants be done? What functionality is missing
from an iPad?

no functionality is missing from an ipad.

But you argue it can't do what PeterN would like it to do.

the ipad is not designed to do what he wants. other products are. no
big deal. that doesn't mean something is missing.

So, again, what functionality is missing from an iPad the lack of
which prevents an iPad from doing what PeterN wants?

because the ipad doesn't do what he wants, he bought something else
that does, and from what he's said, it works. nothing wrong with that.

nobody ever said an ipad can do everything for everyone. nothing can.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

On Sat, 05 Oct 2013 00:47:10 -0400, nospam
wrote:

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

I use a Wacom Cintiq, that has a fat cable coming out of its back that
in turn splits into a power plug, a video plug and... an USB plug. The
Cintiq doesn't have a USB *port* but is USB compliant.

there are also bus-powered hard drives with a dual cable to sap power
from two ports because one usb port can't source enough power. not only
is a dual cable not usb compliant, but neither is the hard drive since
it requires more power than usb can legitimately source. i don't see
anyone bitching about that.

Lots of devices (e.g. printers, scanners, external HDDs) require more
power than can be supplied by USB. Yet they use USB connections. Are
you really saying these devices are not USB compliant?

no, those are usually self-powered.

Right. So that deals with your objection in the second paragraph of
this article.

bus-powered usb hard drives do use more power than usb can provide,
which is why they sometimes include the dual head cables, and yes, that
means they are not 100% compliant. usb can source 500ma and the spin-up
current is more than that.

so if you're going to argue that an ipad is not usb compliant just
because it has a lightning port rather than a microusb port, despite
including a lightning-usb cable making it a non-issue, then you have to
agree that numerous other usb devices are also not compliant, namely
all usb bus-powered hard drives. why single out ipads?

since usb bus-powered drives are so common, usb ports can source more
power so you don't need the clumsy dual cable, but that actually makes
the usb port non-compliant. i don't see anyone bitching about that
either.

some cameras have a custom cable to go between its custom connector and
a computer's usb port. where's the bitching about that?

Who is bitching?

you've posted many times about how the ipad is not compliant because it
uses a more capable port than microusb.

That's not bitching about the iPad. If there is any bitching its about
your reluctance to admit the obvious.

and if you've ever seen usb 3.0 microusb ports, you'll be glad apple
came up with lightning. talk about a horrible plug. ugh.

Irrelevant.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

On Sat, 05 Oct 2013 00:47:13 -0400, nospam
wrote:

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

it can be usb 2 and can even be usb 3 ...

But not of itself. It requires a variety of hardware to act as an
exterenal USB adaptor.

which is included, so it's a non-issue.

Squink. Whether or not its included is not the issue. The issue is
whether or not it's necessary and the answer is 'it is'.

so what?

it does not make a compliant device non-compliant.

Of course not. It makes a non-compliant device compliant!

feel free to dig out a soldering iron and replace the lightning port
with a microusb port. now you have the 'correct' port on an ipad, and
without a warranty.

assuming you didn't **** it up in the process, it will work the same as
before. plug it into a computer's usb port and sync.

"It will work the same as before". Will it recognize and properly
connect to an, for example, HDMI cable?

the physical characteristics of the port do not matter.

... (which doesn't make sense for
idevices at this time, but it might in the future). it can be used for
audio or video too.

think of it as a superset of usb, hdmi and others.

I am sure you also know that Apple sell a Lightning to USB adaptor.

they sell a lightning-usb cable, and when connected to a usb host, the
ipad is a fully compliant usb peripheral.

Dead right, and without that adaptor it cannot connect to USB. The
Lightning port is NOT USB compliant in any sense of the term.

the physical port may not be a standard usb port, but that doesn't
change anything.

the ipad is still a usb device and always has been. that's what
matters.

It's also an HDMI and heaven knows what (literally).

http://theiphonewiki.com/wiki/Lightn...tal_AV_Adapter

* Lightning is adaptive.
* All 8 pins are used for signals, and all or most can be
switched to be used for power.
* The outer plug shell is used as ground reference and connected
to the device shell.
* At least one (probably at most two) of the pins is used for
detecting what sort of plug is plugged in.
* All plugs have to contain a controller/driver chip to implement
the “adaptive” thing.
* The device watches for a momentary short on all pins (by the
leading edge of the plug) to detect plug insertion/removal.
* The pins on the plug are deactivated until after the plug is
fully inserted, when a wake-up signal on one of the pins cues
the chip inside the plug. This avoids any shorting hazard
while the plug isn’t inside the connector.
* The controller/driver chip tells the device what type it is,
and for cases like the Lightning-to-USB cable whether a
charger (that sends power) or a device (that needs power) is
on the other end.
* The device can then switch the other pins between the SoC’s
data lines or the power circuitry, as needed in each case.
* Once everything is properly set up, the controller/driver chip
gets digital signals from the SoC and converts them – via
serial/parallel, ADC/DAC, differential drivers or whatever –
to whatever is needed by the interface on the other end of the
adapter or cable. It could even re-encode these signals to
some other format to use fewer wires, gain noise-immunity or
whatever, and re-decode them on the other end; it’s all
flexible. It could even convert to optical.

That doesn't sound like a USB device to any sane person. At the best,
with the aid of external hardware. it can emulate USB. It is not USB
compliant of itself.

lightning does not emulate anything.

when you attach a usb cable, it uses two of the pins for usb data.

Only data. What about power, whether coming or going?

when
you attach something else, it repurposes as many pins as needed for
whatever the something else is.

that means it's future-proof. whenever something new becomes popular,
lightning will be able to support it. the previous dock connector was
nowhere near as flexible and they kept repurposing pins.

you're trying to prove that the ipad is not usb compliant because it
uses a more capable port that can act as a standard usb port along with
a whole lot more.

Only with an external adaptor.

so what?

the ipad is usb compliant and can connect to any computer's usb port.

But only with an external adaptor.

meanwhile, the rest of the world happily plugs their ipad, iphone or
ipod touch into a usb port on a computer using the included usb cable
(or another that they bought), or they get a camera connection kit and
plug in their camera or card reader. it's *all* done using usb.

As is made clear in my quote above, none of these will work without
the use of the correct external adaptor.

so what?

If it was USB you wouldn't need an external adaptor to deal with the
electical connectons.

the ipad is a usb device, as the screen shot proved.

But only with an external adaptor.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

On Sat, 05 Oct 2013 00:47:16 -0400, nospam
wrote:

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

the mere fact that the ipad shows up in the usb device tree is proof
(and i doubt you know what that means).

Of course Peter wouldn't know what that means. He doesn't use a Mac &
he doesn't own an iPad.

one does not need to own a mac or an ipad to understand how usb works.

he doesn't know what it means because he's non-technical and won't
admit when he's in over his head.

This might help;
https://db.tt/Nb6dRzVh

it might.

It doesn't help Peter when he's up against someone who is prepared to
bull**** their way through an argument.

i'm not bull****ting anything.

Nospam knows very well that what I said about the Lightning port not
being USB compliant was correct but you will never get him to admit
it.

this isn't about the *port*.

it's about whether an ipad is usb compliant, and it is. this is a fact,
which the above screen shot clearly proves.

What! The whole iPad?

yes, the whole ipad.

You are daft.

not as much as you.

did you really think only a portion of the ipad is compliant but not
all of it? maybe only the left half of it?

USB compliance deals only with the connection and its driver. It has
nothing to do with the rest of kit and caboodle.

you don't think apple is forging a vendor/device id, do you? the usb-if
does not take kindly to that. just ask palm.

No I don't. What gave you the idea I did?

all i'm saying is if they have a valid vendor/device id, then it's usb
compliant. the usb-if does not hand out ids just for the asking.

But you can't connect to it with anything but Apple's special external
adaptor. Without that it is merely (?) an Apple Lightning socket.

and for those who don't recall what palm did, they stole apple's usb
vendor/device id so that a palm pre would appear as an apple ipod and
letting it sync with itunes, without palm needing to write their own
sync software. not cool.

Irrelevant.

not surprisingly, the usb-if was not amused, nor was apple. apple
quickly blocked it with an update, but that didn't stop palm. they
spoofed that a second time, which was blocked again. really not cool.

Still irrelevant.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

On Sat, 05 Oct 2013 00:47:17 -0400, nospam
wrote:

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

This might help;
https://db.tt/Nb6dRzVh

I'm afraid that doesn't deal with the point at issue which is whether
or not the Lightning port is USB compliant as it stands. The fact is
that is it not so compliant and requires an external adaptor to make
it so.

the issue is if the *device* is compliant, which it is.

The issue has always been whether or not the *port* is compliant and
it isn't.

no it hasn't.

just because the lightning port is more capable and better designed
than a microusb port doesn't change the fact that the ipad is not a usb
compliant device.

a microusb port couldn't do what is needed. apple had to make a better
one.

And a very clever one. It's a port which can emulate a large number of
connections if you use the appropriate external device.

and very future proof.

And not USB in itself.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

On Fri, 04 Oct 2013 14:13:12 -0400, Tony Cooper wrote:

On Fri, 4 Oct 2013 10:12:18 -0700, Savageduck
wrote:

On 2013-10-04 10:00:16 -0700, nospam said:

In article , Tony Cooper
wrote:



You must not have ever driven towing a trailer. I've driven many
miles towing a boat and never been bothered by hills or curves.

tell that to those who jackknifed. even experienced tractor-trailer
drivers can jackknife.

and what hills? you live in florida.

In Florida speed bumps are considered hills.

You probably know this, but you don't jackknife taking a curve. You
jackknife because you brake hard and fast...even on a straight, flat
road.

And because the brakes on BOTH the vehicles are not set to match.



--
Neil
Reverse ‘a’ and ‘r’
Remove ‘l’ to get address.