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What's missing in LF newbie online resources?



 
 
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  #1  
Old February 7th 04, 12:38 AM
Bob Monaghan
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Posts: n/a
Default What's missing in LF newbie online resources?

Greetings, Y'all. Maybe what we/steve needs is a more comprehensive
listing, posted periodically (weekly, bi-weekly?) to online LF resources?
I think a periodic posting of LF URL links and pointers would be handy for
newbies not sure where to start, as well as provide a LF FAQ for this
group (the current version of which was last updated in 1995 ;-)

Equally worth highlighting is missing resources - things which are NOT yet
available online. Some online resources (such as Michael Davis' lens
charts http://www.largeformatphotography.in...es/LF4x5in.xls) are great,
but only list a subset of lenses users are likely to run into (hence the
many questions here on lens coverage etc. for older optics).

Other resources seem to be missing or scattered, such as comprehensive
listing of:

a) LF books and magazines, with pros/cons reviews and user comments
b) LF rental sources in USA/World, items carried, sortable by brands(xls?)
c) LF price guide for used gear like cameras and lenses by condition
d) LF ads from the past, for fun, old prices, and view of camera and accys

What do you wish you could find, or what do you want to see for LF users?

a)
b)
c)...

thanks for your comments...

regards bobm
--
************************************************** *********************
* Robert Monaghan POB 752182 Southern Methodist Univ. Dallas Tx 75275 *
********************Standard Disclaimers Apply*************************
  #2  
Old February 7th 04, 12:47 AM
jjs
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Posts: n/a
Default What's missing in LF newbie online resources?


"Bob Monaghan" wrote in message
...
Greetings, Y'all. Maybe what we/steve needs is a more comprehensive
listing, posted periodically (weekly, bi-weekly?) to online LF resources?

[...]

Other resources seem to be missing or scattered, such as comprehensive
listing of:

a) LF books and magazines, with pros/cons reviews and user comments
b) LF rental sources in USA/World, items carried, sortable by brands(xls?)
c) LF price guide for used gear like cameras and lenses by condition
d) LF ads from the past, for fun, old prices, and view of camera and accys

What do you wish you could find, or what do you want to see for LF users?

a)


A LF photographer,other than an aerial photographer, who shoots wide open,
or nearly so. Heresy?


  #3  
Old February 7th 04, 01:14 AM
Gregory W Blank
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Posts: n/a
Default What's missing in LF newbie online resources?

Bob; its a great Idea, I will save this post and if I think of something I'll repost.


In article ,
(Bob Monaghan) wrote:

Greetings, Y'all. Maybe what we/steve needs is a more comprehensive
listing, posted periodically (weekly, bi-weekly?) to online LF resources?
I think a periodic posting of LF URL links and pointers would be handy for
newbies not sure where to start, as well as provide a LF FAQ for this
group (the current version of which was last updated in 1995 ;-)

Equally worth highlighting is missing resources - things which are NOT yet
available online. Some online resources (such as Michael Davis' lens
charts
http://www.largeformatphotography.in...es/LF4x5in.xls) are great,
but only list a subset of lenses users are likely to run into (hence the
many questions here on lens coverage etc. for older optics).

Other resources seem to be missing or scattered, such as comprehensive
listing of:

a) LF books and magazines, with pros/cons reviews and user comments
b) LF rental sources in USA/World, items carried, sortable by brands(xls?)
c) LF price guide for used gear like cameras and lenses by condition
d) LF ads from the past, for fun, old prices, and view of camera and accys

What do you wish you could find, or what do you want to see for LF users?

a)
b)
c)...

thanks for your comments...

regards bobm

--
LF website http://members.bellatlantic.net/~gblank

  #4  
Old February 7th 04, 01:41 AM
Stacey
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Posts: n/a
Default What's missing in LF newbie online resources?

jjs wrote:


What do you wish you could find, or what do you want to see for LF users?

a)


A LF photographer,other than an aerial photographer, who shoots wide
open, or nearly so. Heresy?


I've been playing with just that using an 8X10 and a 300mm heliar. Just got
this lens sorted out (diaphram was messed up on a sample I could afford),
my other attempts at wide open shooting weren't pretty, they were all done
with tessar clones. Seems many modernish LF lenses have terrible bokeh.
Everyone seems to want the "f64" type shots out of LF, to do anything else
seems to require looking at the older lenses? The heliar seems to fit this
bill as the test shots I did with it look nice, now to find some
interesting subjects to point it at!

Another lens I'd like to play with is a verito, I'd guess it probably has
nice bokeh as well? Any other ideas to try?

--

Stacey
  #5  
Old February 7th 04, 05:25 AM
MikeWhy
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Posts: n/a
Default What's missing in LF newbie online resources?

"Bob Monaghan" wrote in message
...
Greetings, Y'all. Maybe what we/steve needs is a more comprehensive
listing, posted periodically (weekly, bi-weekly?) to online LF resources?
I think a periodic posting of LF URL links and pointers would be handy for
newbies not sure where to start, as well as provide a LF FAQ for this
group (the current version of which was last updated in 1995 ;-)


Well, here's a question I'm well qualified to address. I might even be
unique.
The closest I've come to a view camera is through pictures and reading. I
have yet to touch one, or see one up close. If I've seen one at a distance,
I don't recall when or the circumstances.

Much of the online resources address gear -- lens specs and tests, camera
specs; basically the big ticket items. It's a necessary starting point, and
I'm sure I'll revisit them again someday, but hopefully not for several more
years. Anyway, I'm past that. My money is spent, and now it's up to UPS to
do its part. I was hoping they would be done by today, but there's still
hope for early next week.

I've come across reading lists on the web, including Steve's. They're all
helpful. In the end, I trusted the readers' reviews on Amazon, and bought
Stroebel's Techniques book along with a title by Dykinga. No surprises in
either, and plenty of useful information and details. The general principles
are simple and rather obvious; it's the details that are important for
newbies.

I think that's what it boils down to: the details of how and what. Bear with
me for a little bit...

LF is a mature technology. :-) If there ever was a mature technology, LF
certainly qualifies. In fact, I think it matured in the 50's or 60's, and
that's part of the difficulty just starting out. I was still in my zeroes
when 1969 left us; my tens and teens waited one more year, in the 70s.
Whether it's a cultural difference, or simply a lack of continued
"refinement" and change after that, the result is that how things work or go
together are, for lack of a better word, foreign. The solutions are
different from how we would design them today. Not that I can think
of a better way; it's just different.

I'm reassured that it's a mature technology. The problems I face are not new
problems. In fact, all that I'm looking at are the solutions to problems
that others have faced and conquered. The only real puzzle is figuring out
how it was solved. Sometimes it's obvious; sometimes a hint in the right
direction is needed. There are no new problems waiting for me to solve, and
that is very reassuring.

A few brief examples come to mind.

It was a few enjoyable minutes figuring out how to hold the shutter open on
an older Compur shutter. It seems obvious -- there's that word again -- in
hindsight if you bear in mind the era that it was made. And if it takes
force to accomplish, it's likely not what was intended. So I slowly
figured out not only how to work it, but also got a few insights into how
the
mechanism evolved. Imagine that, a living moment in history, frozen in
stamped and machined metal. A more recently made Copal was boring after that
brief adventure. Certainly it works better and easier, but it didn't reveal
as much about the people in its history.

I asked for help yesterday with a Jobo reel. The film holders weren't
staying on the way I was installing them, and so that couldn't be right. If
it's difficult to do in the dark, if it's easy to do wrong, I'm likely not
understanding the solution. This time, I think it's a cultural difference,
not one of evolving technology. The only help needed was a reminder that
it's supposed to work, and in its own way, be dummy proof. And so I got it
to work.

The film holders I ordered arrived today. I still lack the camera, but I can
pre-load the film that arrived earlier this week; the UPS guy is my new best
friend. I really look forward to our brief meetings. Again, in hindsight,
it's all too obvious how the film goes in the holder. It was several
minutes, though, before I noticed that the back hinged out and away.
Reaffirming, then, that everything is already fully thought out and not easy
to get wrong, once you understand which brand of fool they were proofing
against.

Maybe tomorrow, but realistically Monday or Tuesday, I can discover for
myself how and where the film holder goes. How hard can that be? It needs to
sit close to where I'm focusing, and lock something of a particular size and
shape securely into place. Maybe I'll eschew the manual that was said will
accompany this. It's been so much fun up to this point; why ruin that now?

I'm not sure what I'm trying to say. Reading Jobo's reel loading
instructions on the web, and also the briefer version that came in the box,
it all seems obvious in every way if you already have the same end result
clearly in mind. Starting from "What the heck are these?", though, those
same sentences are pure gibberish.

Until you've seen it done, or actually did it yourself, every one of those
hundred and one little things you do to take a picture are potential sources
of anxiety, frustration, or the simple joy of discovery. Once you've seen it
done actually did it yourself, every one of them I'm sure will be too simple
and too obvious for words, let alone the pictures that would make everything
exceeding clear.

I started out scribbling this thinking that it is too simple and too obvious
for an all inclusive "Guide for Newbies" to be meaningful. Right now, I
believe just the opposite, that it's not only worth doing, but will be fun
and worth doing well. I think it will take very few words, and 300 to 500
pictures to illustrate everything that goes into setting up and taking the
first picture, maybe through the point of developing and scanning that
single first image. I think it should be linear, focusing only on every
little step along the way, rather than diverging into comparative anatomies
of Copal versus Compur, or Toyo versus Sinar. There's room for all that
later. Heaven knows that most manufacturers' online catalogs are next to
worthless.

No, no steenkin FAQ for me. FAQs are predominantly typed text. I find it odd
that for a photographic interest, long tomes are mostly what I've found.
Well written, useful, and meaningful to be sure, but I don't think I want to
follow that model. A simple photo essay with the digital will have to do.

Other than that, I also wanted to say that just having you guys here is
plenty of help. Something doesn't seem right, I just squeak and get the real
scoop. Thanks for that.

Mike.

  #6  
Old February 7th 04, 05:46 AM
Nick Zentena
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default What's missing in LF newbie online resources?

MikeWhy wrote:


LF is a mature technology. :-) If there ever was a mature technology, LF
certainly qualifies. In fact, I think it matured in the 50's or 60's, and
that's part of the difficulty just starting out. I was still in my zeroes
when 1969 left us; my tens and teens waited one more year, in the 70s.
Whether it's a cultural difference, or simply a lack of continued
"refinement" and change after that, the result is that how things work or go
together are, for lack of a better word, foreign. The solutions are
different from how we would design them today. Not that I can think
of a better way; it's just different.


Depends totally on what you're used to. LF cameras that I have seem to
have moved past the point that they require complicated gizmos to prove they
have worth. Everything is dirt simple. Turn the knob and something moves.
Just play a little and it makes sense. Many of todays items need to be
complicated to convince people they haven't wasted thier money. Or at least
it seems that way.


The film holders I ordered arrived today. I still lack the camera, but I can
pre-load the film that arrived earlier this week; the UPS guy is my new best
friend. I really look forward to our brief meetings. Again, in hindsight,
it's all too obvious how the film goes in the holder. It was several
minutes, though, before I noticed that the back hinged out and away.
Reaffirming, then, that everything is already fully thought out and not easy
to get wrong, once you understand which brand of fool they were proofing
against.

Until you've seen it done, or actually did it yourself, every one of those
hundred and one little things you do to take a picture are potential sources
of anxiety, frustration, or the simple joy of discovery. Once you've seen it
done actually did it yourself, every one of them I'm sure will be too simple
and too obvious for words, let alone the pictures that would make everything
exceeding clear.


No, no steenkin FAQ for me. FAQs are predominantly typed text. I find it odd
that for a photographic interest, long tomes are mostly what I've found.
Well written, useful, and meaningful to be sure, but I don't think I want to
follow that model. A simple photo essay with the digital will have to do.





Paul Butzi's film loading web page made it all click for me. The pictures
made the words make sense. Alot of it would be easier with somebody to show
you but most can be figured out with just trying. I'm always amazed when I
figure out some new and novel method and then the next day I read it in a
book. Proving that it was invented 70 years before I was-)


http://www.butzi.net/articles/filmload.htm

Nick
  #7  
Old February 7th 04, 05:54 AM
Stacey
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default What's missing in LF newbie online resources?

MikeWhy wrote:



Maybe tomorrow, but realistically Monday or Tuesday, I can discover for
myself how and where the film holder goes. How hard can that be? It needs
to sit close to where I'm focusing, and lock something of a particular
size and shape securely into place. Maybe I'll eschew the manual that was
said will accompany this. It's been so much fun up to this point; why ruin
that now?



IMHO that was much of the fun of using LF the first time, figuring out what
I was doing. Maybe others wouldn't like that and would want to be walked
through it? Even shooting with the film loaded backwards was kinda fun.
;-)

--

Stacey
  #8  
Old February 7th 04, 06:06 AM
Frank Pittel
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Posts: n/a
Default What's missing in LF newbie online resources?

Although I've already posted this in another thread I'm going to repeat it
again because I think it's a valuableSP? resource that is being over looked.

A while back Sherman Dunnam volunteered space on his web server for LF groups to
put either a page of their own or a link to their website. The URL is:
http://www.dunnamphoto.com - click on the link labeled groups. (I'd recommend
that you follow all the links on the page at some point) I would recommend that
you find a group local to you and contact them. You will find very capable
LF photographers that will be more then happy to help you setup a camera, work
your shutter, offer suggestions, and in the case of the midwestlf let you use
their cameras, lenses, meters, filters and just about anything that you would
need but don't have.

While reading books, magazines, web pages can provide a lot of help. Nothing
beats having a person with many years of experience with LF photography standing
next you walking you through the steps of making an exposure.

MikeWhy wrote:
: "Bob Monaghan" wrote in message
: ...
: Greetings, Y'all. Maybe what we/steve needs is a more comprehensive
: listing, posted periodically (weekly, bi-weekly?) to online LF resources?
: I think a periodic posting of LF URL links and pointers would be handy for
: newbies not sure where to start, as well as provide a LF FAQ for this
: group (the current version of which was last updated in 1995 ;-)

: Well, here's a question I'm well qualified to address. I might even be
: unique.
: The closest I've come to a view camera is through pictures and reading. I
: have yet to touch one, or see one up close. If I've seen one at a distance,
: I don't recall when or the circumstances.

: Much of the online resources address gear -- lens specs and tests, camera
: specs; basically the big ticket items. It's a necessary starting point, and
: I'm sure I'll revisit them again someday, but hopefully not for several more
: years. Anyway, I'm past that. My money is spent, and now it's up to UPS to
: do its part. I was hoping they would be done by today, but there's still
: hope for early next week.

: I've come across reading lists on the web, including Steve's. They're all
: helpful. In the end, I trusted the readers' reviews on Amazon, and bought
: Stroebel's Techniques book along with a title by Dykinga. No surprises in
: either, and plenty of useful information and details. The general principles
: are simple and rather obvious; it's the details that are important for
: newbies.

: I think that's what it boils down to: the details of how and what. Bear with
: me for a little bit...

: LF is a mature technology. :-) If there ever was a mature technology, LF
: certainly qualifies. In fact, I think it matured in the 50's or 60's, and
: that's part of the difficulty just starting out. I was still in my zeroes
: when 1969 left us; my tens and teens waited one more year, in the 70s.
: Whether it's a cultural difference, or simply a lack of continued
: "refinement" and change after that, the result is that how things work or go
: together are, for lack of a better word, foreign. The solutions are
: different from how we would design them today. Not that I can think
: of a better way; it's just different.

: I'm reassured that it's a mature technology. The problems I face are not new
: problems. In fact, all that I'm looking at are the solutions to problems
: that others have faced and conquered. The only real puzzle is figuring out
: how it was solved. Sometimes it's obvious; sometimes a hint in the right
: direction is needed. There are no new problems waiting for me to solve, and
: that is very reassuring.

: A few brief examples come to mind.

: It was a few enjoyable minutes figuring out how to hold the shutter open on
: an older Compur shutter. It seems obvious -- there's that word again -- in
: hindsight if you bear in mind the era that it was made. And if it takes
: force to accomplish, it's likely not what was intended. So I slowly
: figured out not only how to work it, but also got a few insights into how
: the
: mechanism evolved. Imagine that, a living moment in history, frozen in
: stamped and machined metal. A more recently made Copal was boring after that
: brief adventure. Certainly it works better and easier, but it didn't reveal
: as much about the people in its history.

: I asked for help yesterday with a Jobo reel. The film holders weren't
: staying on the way I was installing them, and so that couldn't be right. If
: it's difficult to do in the dark, if it's easy to do wrong, I'm likely not
: understanding the solution. This time, I think it's a cultural difference,
: not one of evolving technology. The only help needed was a reminder that
: it's supposed to work, and in its own way, be dummy proof. And so I got it
: to work.

: The film holders I ordered arrived today. I still lack the camera, but I can
: pre-load the film that arrived earlier this week; the UPS guy is my new best
: friend. I really look forward to our brief meetings. Again, in hindsight,
: it's all too obvious how the film goes in the holder. It was several
: minutes, though, before I noticed that the back hinged out and away.
: Reaffirming, then, that everything is already fully thought out and not easy
: to get wrong, once you understand which brand of fool they were proofing
: against.

: Maybe tomorrow, but realistically Monday or Tuesday, I can discover for
: myself how and where the film holder goes. How hard can that be? It needs to
: sit close to where I'm focusing, and lock something of a particular size and
: shape securely into place. Maybe I'll eschew the manual that was said will
: accompany this. It's been so much fun up to this point; why ruin that now?

: I'm not sure what I'm trying to say. Reading Jobo's reel loading
: instructions on the web, and also the briefer version that came in the box,
: it all seems obvious in every way if you already have the same end result
: clearly in mind. Starting from "What the heck are these?", though, those
: same sentences are pure gibberish.

: Until you've seen it done, or actually did it yourself, every one of those
: hundred and one little things you do to take a picture are potential sources
: of anxiety, frustration, or the simple joy of discovery. Once you've seen it
: done actually did it yourself, every one of them I'm sure will be too simple
: and too obvious for words, let alone the pictures that would make everything
: exceeding clear.

: I started out scribbling this thinking that it is too simple and too obvious
: for an all inclusive "Guide for Newbies" to be meaningful. Right now, I
: believe just the opposite, that it's not only worth doing, but will be fun
: and worth doing well. I think it will take very few words, and 300 to 500
: pictures to illustrate everything that goes into setting up and taking the
: first picture, maybe through the point of developing and scanning that
: single first image. I think it should be linear, focusing only on every
: little step along the way, rather than diverging into comparative anatomies
: of Copal versus Compur, or Toyo versus Sinar. There's room for all that
: later. Heaven knows that most manufacturers' online catalogs are next to
: worthless.

: No, no steenkin FAQ for me. FAQs are predominantly typed text. I find it odd
: that for a photographic interest, long tomes are mostly what I've found.
: Well written, useful, and meaningful to be sure, but I don't think I want to
: follow that model. A simple photo essay with the digital will have to do.

: Other than that, I also wanted to say that just having you guys here is
: plenty of help. Something doesn't seem right, I just squeak and get the real
: scoop. Thanks for that.

: Mike.


--




Keep working millions on welfare depend on you
-------------------

  #9  
Old February 7th 04, 02:24 PM
Raphael Bustin
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default What's missing in LF newbie online resources?

On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 04:25:31 GMT, "MikeWhy"
wrote:


I started out scribbling this thinking that it is too simple and too obvious
for an all inclusive "Guide for Newbies" to be meaningful. Right now, I
believe just the opposite, that it's not only worth doing, but will be fun
and worth doing well. I think it will take very few words, and 300 to 500
pictures to illustrate everything that goes into setting up and taking the
first picture, maybe through the point of developing and scanning that
single first image. I think it should be linear, focusing only on every
little step along the way, rather than diverging into comparative anatomies
of Copal versus Compur, or Toyo versus Sinar. There's room for all that
later. Heaven knows that most manufacturers' online catalogs are next to
worthless.

No, no steenkin FAQ for me. FAQs are predominantly typed text. I find it odd
that for a photographic interest, long tomes are mostly what I've found.
Well written, useful, and meaningful to be sure, but I don't think I want to
follow that model. A simple photo essay with the digital will have to do.

Other than that, I also wanted to say that just having you guys here is
plenty of help. Something doesn't seem right, I just squeak and get the real
scoop. Thanks for that.



Personally I've found Steve Simmons' book useful, but
Jack Dykinga's prettier to look at and as useful. For
inspiring photos there's always David and Marc Muench.

Funny, I spent a number of minutes puzzling over the
loading of the film holders, just like you... Most puzzling
of all was the Polaroid film holder, which actually required
reading a manual. (And for naught, as the film was hope-
lessly outdated.)

I see a fair amount of redundancy in the controls of these
cameras, and probably a few controls I'll never use.

Hardest part for me will probably be dealing with the
very dim images on the ground glass and of course
learning to see the world upside down.

Oh yes, and figuring out how to schlep all this gear. Ugh.


rafe b.
http://www.terrapinphoto.com
  #10  
Old February 7th 04, 02:43 PM
Gregory W Blank
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default What's missing in LF newbie online resources?

In article ,
Raphael Bustin wrote:


Personally I've found Steve Simmons' book useful, but
Jack Dykinga's prettier to look at and as useful. For
inspiring photos there's always David and Marc Muench.

Funny, I spent a number of minutes puzzling over the
loading of the film holders, just like you... Most puzzling
of all was the Polaroid film holder, which actually required
reading a manual. (And for naught, as the film was hope-
lessly outdated.)

I see a fair amount of redundancy in the controls of these
cameras, and probably a few controls I'll never use.


Someday you will be surprised given enough time
what you find use for.

Hardest part for me will probably be dealing with the
very dim images on the ground glass and of course
learning to see the world upside down.

Takes a few years, now after 20 I say what upside down
image.

Oh yes, and figuring out how to schlep all this gear. Ugh.


Like most people that attempt LF photo you will learn to
love the benefits, or you will move on. How quickly is determined
by you, the amount you shoot, where you go what you get
and how patient you are. Being skilled I think will take many years
without any limit on the learning curve.....we all... "I believe"... get
stumped to a degree at various times.
--
LF website http://members.bellatlantic.net/~gblank

 




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