Big time beginner questions regarding medium-large format cameras and operation/requirements/etc.

I'm going straight to the wizards here to help me answer questions
before I go venturing into the land of MF-LF. First things first, I
have used a ton of 35mm format film and digital based stuff and the
best I have been able to do is using my Contax G setup consisting of
21mm/28mm/45mm/90mm lenses. I have not found anything that has been
able to define/resolve/and at the same time produce the color of this
setup. So what I'm looking for in a MF-LF type "look" is something
along the similar color rendition of the Contax G/SLR, and
Rollei...Voigtlander Color Skopar, etc. etc. For sharpness, I am
looking for equally sharp photos as I achieve with the Contax G system
so that's my only basis in terms of the sharpness levels I wish to
achieve with the MF-LF system I decide on. So onto the questions:

1) Price is definitely a factor so I'm looking for a budget system. I
became quite interested in the folding types when considering this
option. What is a camera system that will produce the kind of results
(see above regarding Contax G system) on the cheap? It can be
anything, really, but I am trying to not go with something too big that
I'll have to lug around which is why I had interest in the folding type
cameras.

2) How difficult is it to operate one of these systems compared to the
35mm world? I am, as I pointed out, familiar with both film SLR,
digital SLR, and rangefinder/point-shoot type systems. But most I have
operated have a lot of automated features like film rewind, etc. I am
used to metering off a grey card...which is another thing I am
wondering about...how well does the metering system work in these
cameras and will I need an external metering source?

3) On a general basis, how expensive is it for developing only the
negatives/positive film (sleeved)? I will do my scanning and
post-processing at home.

4) How long does it take to have the film processed?

5) There is reference to databacks and the like. What exactly are
these and does one have to replace them often? Is this basically your
film insert?

6) How difficult is it to load the film compared to 35mm?

7) Is it necessary to use a tripod at all times or is handholding ok?
In what situations (of course tripod is always the best) is the tripod
truly necessary?


After all of these questions, to really summarize things as briefly as
I can...I am looking for a really budget based system that will produce
at least the sharpness of the best rangefinder systems (i.e.
Contax/Leica/Konica Hexar/etc.) and at the same time give me a color
similar to rollei HFT type stuff, Voigtlander for Rollei, Contax G/SLR
is good as well...but the more saturated kind of look from the older
Rollei/Voigt is really nice to my eyes. For a "stark" contrast, I
don't like the color at all from the Pentax 645 lenses. I am also
looking for as compact a system as possible, hopefully a meter based
type where I do not have to use an external meter, and then the
expectations on working with the system, developing process/costs, etc.

Thanks all and sorry for the "newbie" post, but I'm hoping to take my
love for film to the next level as I say...my only level of "reference"
that I consider the very best in 35mm format is Contax G system.

On 4 Sep 2006 22:43:13 -0700, "Progressiveabsolution"
wrote:

I'm going straight to the wizards here to help me answer questions
before I go venturing into the land of MF-LF. First things first, I
have used a ton of 35mm format film and digital based stuff and the
best I have been able to do is using my Contax G setup consisting of
21mm/28mm/45mm/90mm lenses. I have not found anything that has been
able to define/resolve/and at the same time produce the color of this
setup. So what I'm looking for in a MF-LF type "look" is something
along the similar color rendition of the Contax G/SLR, and
Rollei...Voigtlander Color Skopar, etc. etc. For sharpness, I am
looking for equally sharp photos as I achieve with the Contax G system
so that's my only basis in terms of the sharpness levels I wish to
achieve with the MF-LF system I decide on. So onto the questions:

Since you are trying to find a particular "look" to the images, you'll
need to rent/borrow equipment and test it youself. I doubt anyone can
predict the "look" you want.

Chris Ellinger
Ann Arbor, MI

Progressiveabsolution wrote:
I'm going straight to the wizards here to help me answer questions
before I go venturing into the land of MF-LF. First things first, I
have used a ton of 35mm format film and digital based stuff and the
best I have been able to do is using my Contax G setup consisting of
21mm/28mm/45mm/90mm lenses. I have not found anything that has been
able to define/resolve/and at the same time produce the color of this
setup. So what I'm looking for in a MF-LF type "look" is something
along the similar color rendition of the Contax G/SLR, and
Rollei...Voigtlander Color Skopar, etc. etc. For sharpness, I am
looking for equally sharp photos as I achieve with the Contax G system
so that's my only basis in terms of the sharpness levels I wish to
achieve with the MF-LF system I decide on. So onto the questions:

1) Price is definitely a factor so I'm looking for a budget system. I
became quite interested in the folding types when considering this
option. What is a camera system that will produce the kind of results
(see above regarding Contax G system) on the cheap? It can be
anything, really, but I am trying to not go with something too big that
I'll have to lug around which is why I had interest in the folding type
cameras.

2) How difficult is it to operate one of these systems compared to the
35mm world? I am, as I pointed out, familiar with both film SLR,
digital SLR, and rangefinder/point-shoot type systems. But most I have
operated have a lot of automated features like film rewind, etc. I am
used to metering off a grey card...which is another thing I am
wondering about...how well does the metering system work in these
cameras and will I need an external metering source?

3) On a general basis, how expensive is it for developing only the
negatives/positive film (sleeved)? I will do my scanning and
post-processing at home.

4) How long does it take to have the film processed?

5) There is reference to databacks and the like. What exactly are
these and does one have to replace them often? Is this basically your
film insert?

6) How difficult is it to load the film compared to 35mm?

7) Is it necessary to use a tripod at all times or is handholding ok?
In what situations (of course tripod is always the best) is the tripod
truly necessary?


After all of these questions, to really summarize things as briefly as
I can...I am looking for a really budget based system that will produce
at least the sharpness of the best rangefinder systems (i.e.
Contax/Leica/Konica Hexar/etc.) and at the same time give me a color
similar to rollei HFT type stuff, Voigtlander for Rollei, Contax G/SLR
is good as well...but the more saturated kind of look from the older
Rollei/Voigt is really nice to my eyes. For a "stark" contrast, I
don't like the color at all from the Pentax 645 lenses. I am also
looking for as compact a system as possible, hopefully a meter based
type where I do not have to use an external meter, and then the
expectations on working with the system, developing process/costs, etc.

Thanks all and sorry for the "newbie" post, but I'm hoping to take my
love for film to the next level as I say...my only level of "reference"
that I consider the very best in 35mm format is Contax G system.

Gee, I don't know.....

The short answer is a Rollei 6008i SLR with Schneider lenses.

The Zeiss lenses are fine, but I find that the Schneider glass produces
slightly more robust color.

1) You won't like the price but it's the only one which fits your
criteria. You'll have to get a Saturday job at Home Depot.

2) Heavy, but very easy to operate and it has the best metering system
that I've ever found... better than my Leica R8. You won't need an
external meter.

3) About $10/roll of 120 E-6 here in the Boston area.

4) How fast is your lab? 2-4 hours here.

5) There are backs available for 120 and 220.

6) Different but no more difficult.

7) Real photographers don't need tripods except for 8x10 and 11x14. ;-)

Jim, "You're really kidding about this, right?" Hemenway

P.S. Here are some samples, I'm sure there are other, better samples out
the

http://www.hemenway.com/Fruitlands/
http://www.hemenway.com/06212006-Annisquam/
http://www.hemenway.com/More-Maine/
http://www.hemenway.com/DarkDayAcadia/
http://www.hemenway.com/Carlisle-Fall04



Progressiveabsolution wrote:
I'm going straight to the wizards here to help me answer questions
before I go venturing into the land of MF-LF. First things first, I
have used a ton of 35mm format film and digital based stuff and the
best I have been able to do is using my Contax G setup consisting of
21mm/28mm/45mm/90mm lenses. I have not found anything that has been
able to define/resolve/and at the same time produce the color of this
setup. So what I'm looking for in a MF-LF type "look" is something
along the similar color rendition of the Contax G/SLR, and
Rollei...Voigtlander Color Skopar, etc. etc. For sharpness, I am
looking for equally sharp photos as I achieve with the Contax G system
so that's my only basis in terms of the sharpness levels I wish to
achieve with the MF-LF system I decide on. So onto the questions:

1) Price is definitely a factor so I'm looking for a budget system. I
became quite interested in the folding types when considering this
option. What is a camera system that will produce the kind of results
(see above regarding Contax G system) on the cheap? It can be
anything, really, but I am trying to not go with something too big that
I'll have to lug around which is why I had interest in the folding type
cameras.

2) How difficult is it to operate one of these systems compared to the
35mm world? I am, as I pointed out, familiar with both film SLR,
digital SLR, and rangefinder/point-shoot type systems. But most I have
operated have a lot of automated features like film rewind, etc. I am
used to metering off a grey card...which is another thing I am
wondering about...how well does the metering system work in these
cameras and will I need an external metering source?

3) On a general basis, how expensive is it for developing only the
negatives/positive film (sleeved)? I will do my scanning and
post-processing at home.

4) How long does it take to have the film processed?

5) There is reference to databacks and the like. What exactly are
these and does one have to replace them often? Is this basically your
film insert?

6) How difficult is it to load the film compared to 35mm?

7) Is it necessary to use a tripod at all times or is handholding ok?
In what situations (of course tripod is always the best) is the tripod
truly necessary?


After all of these questions, to really summarize things as briefly as
I can...I am looking for a really budget based system that will produce
at least the sharpness of the best rangefinder systems (i.e.
Contax/Leica/Konica Hexar/etc.) and at the same time give me a color
similar to rollei HFT type stuff, Voigtlander for Rollei, Contax G/SLR
is good as well...but the more saturated kind of look from the older
Rollei/Voigt is really nice to my eyes. For a "stark" contrast, I
don't like the color at all from the Pentax 645 lenses. I am also
looking for as compact a system as possible, hopefully a meter based
type where I do not have to use an external meter, and then the
expectations on working with the system, developing process/costs, etc.

Thanks all and sorry for the "newbie" post, but I'm hoping to take my
love for film to the next level as I say...my only level of "reference"
that I consider the very best in 35mm format is Contax G system.

Jim Hemenway wrote:
The short answer is a Rollei 6008i SLR with Schneider lenses.

The Zeiss lenses are fine, but I find that the Schneider glass produces
slightly more robust color.

1) You won't like the price but it's the only one which fits your
criteria. You'll have to get a Saturday job at Home Depot.

2) Heavy, but very easy to operate and it has the best metering system
that I've ever found... better than my Leica R8. You won't need an
external meter.

3) About $10/roll of 120 E-6 here in the Boston area.

4) How fast is your lab? 2-4 hours here.

5) There are backs available for 120 and 220.

6) Different but no more difficult.

7) Real photographers don't need tripods except for 8x10 and 11x14. ;-)

Jim, "You're really kidding about this, right?" Hemenway

P.S. Here are some samples, I'm sure there are other, better samples out
the

http://www.hemenway.com/Fruitlands/
http://www.hemenway.com/06212006-Annisquam/
http://www.hemenway.com/More-Maine/
http://www.hemenway.com/DarkDayAcadia/
http://www.hemenway.com/Carlisle-Fall04


Thanks a lot Jim. This certainly shows the here is now statement.
Talk about placing the dimension right in your own doorstep. Really
beautiful stuff and now it's time to start saving money

"Progressiveabsolution" wrote in message
oups.com...

Jim Hemenway wrote:
The short answer is a Rollei 6008i SLR with Schneider lenses.

The Zeiss lenses are fine, but I find that the Schneider glass
produces slightly more robust color.

1) You won't like the price but it's the only one which fits your
criteria. You'll have to get a Saturday job at Home Depot.

[SNIP]


Thanks a lot Jim. This certainly shows the here is now statement.
Talk about placing the dimension right in your own doorstep.
Really beautiful stuff and now it's time to start saving money


Many of those Schneider lenses were also made for the Exakta66, which shares
its mount (and most of its other parts) with the Pentacon 6 and the Kiev 60.
The 80mm and the 60mm Curtagon are easy to find, the 150mm Tele-Xenar a
little harder. The longer lenses and the zooms appear much less often, but
they are out there. There's a shift lens too, and rumours of a 40mm, but no
one I know has ever seen one.

These are very old fashioned bodies, no metering unless you get the meter
prism, and with a range of reliability issues. But if you want to try those
great Schneider lenses on a 6x6 body without taking a Saturday job(!), they
could be worth a look.

Buying (used) a Kiev and a Schneider 80mm lens (the Xenotar is the best one)
would be a good way to spend a month or two seeing if you really like the
colour rendition before you buy the expensive Rollei, and you could always
sell the Kiev later. Cheaper than hiring a 6008i for more than just a
couple of days...



Peter

On Sat, 9 Sep 2006 04:22:34 +0100, "Bandicoot"
wrote:

[---]

Many of those Schneider lenses were also made for the Exakta66, which shares
its mount (and most of its other parts) with the Pentacon 6 and the Kiev 60.

[---]

These are very old fashioned bodies, no metering unless you get the meter
prism, and with a range of reliability issues. But if you want to try those
great Schneider lenses on a 6x6 body without taking a Saturday job(!), they
could be worth a look.

Agreed. Personally, I'd recommend the Kiev 60, as although the
Pentacon 6 is a nicer looking camera, and more compact, it is
horrendously unreliable.

Andrew Price wrote:
On Sat, 9 Sep 2006 04:22:34 +0100, "Bandicoot"
wrote:

[---]

Many of those Schneider lenses were also made for the Exakta66, which shares
its mount (and most of its other parts) with the Pentacon 6 and the Kiev 60.

[---]

These are very old fashioned bodies, no metering unless you get the meter
prism, and with a range of reliability issues. But if you want to try those
great Schneider lenses on a 6x6 body without taking a Saturday job(!), they
could be worth a look.

Agreed. Personally, I'd recommend the Kiev 60, as although the
Pentacon 6 is a nicer looking camera, and more compact, it is
horrendously unreliable.

How about something like the 6000 series (not 6008, but a cheaper
version OR the SLX)? I'm also looking at the TLRs such as the one lens
Xenotars and Planar designs, though they don't seem nearly as
flexible/interchangeable with lenses as do these Exacta/Kievs or a
cheaper 6000 series body.

Also, I have seen the Pentax 645 (very cheap body) fitted with Rollei
glass. Has anyone ever seen the adapter that is used to fit the Rollei
glass to the 645? This person is in Asia so I'm sure he either modded
it or had his friends do it. It's where all or most all the adapters
of one manufacturer's lens to a different body mount come from. But it
would be cool to have a cheapo Pentax 645 with the Rollei/Schneider and
Zeiss glass on it. I just don't know where to look for this adapter
and if it is even made for anyone but a modifier.

Progressiveabsolution wrote:
...
Also, I have seen the Pentax 645 (very cheap body) fitted with Rollei
glass. Has anyone ever seen the adapter that is used to fit the Rollei
glass to the 645?

Was it Rollei or Schneider glass?

I'm not sure about Rollei lens adapters for Pentax 645, but I think they
exist for Pentacon 6 lenses (+ Kiev 60 and Exakta 66). Schneider made
their lenses with both mounts.

-- Lassi

In article ,
Chris Ellinger wrote:

On 4 Sep 2006 22:43:13 -0700, "Progressiveabsolution"
wrote:

I'm going straight to the wizards here to help me answer questions
before I go venturing into the land of MF-LF. First things first, I
have used a ton of 35mm format film and digital based stuff and the
best I have been able to do is using my Contax G setup consisting of
21mm/28mm/45mm/90mm lenses. I have not found anything that has been
able to define/resolve/and at the same time produce the color of this
setup. So what I'm looking for in a MF-LF type "look" is something
along the similar color rendition of the Contax G/SLR, and
Rollei...Voigtlander Color Skopar, etc. etc. For sharpness, I am
looking for equally sharp photos as I achieve with the Contax G system
so that's my only basis in terms of the sharpness levels I wish to
achieve with the MF-LF system I decide on. So onto the questions:

Since you are trying to find a particular "look" to the images, you'll
need to rent/borrow equipment and test it youself. I doubt anyone can
predict the "look" you want.

Chris Ellinger
Ann Arbor, MI

My recommendation coincides with Chris's -- the best way to find out is
to rent. Depending on where you live the pro rental houses will usually
offer the weekend for the price of a single day's rental.

To get a feel of the different cameras out there you can try the
following:

1. Square 6x6 SLR with Zeiss lenses: rent a Hasselblad 501CM with a
50mm, 85, and 150. To me this was designed as a waist-level camera
although it does have various prisms. Mechanical with a hand-held meter.

2. 6x7 Rangefinder: Mamiya 7 with a 45mm ultra wide, 85mm normal, and a
longer lens. This is on the Leica model, with built-in meter,
rangefinder focusing, and electronic operation.

3. 6x7 SLR: Mamiya RB or RZ 67. These are trucks but the back rotates
for convenience.

4. 6x4.5 Auto Focus SLR: Mamiya 645 -- all the bells and whistles you'd
expect from a pro 35mm SLR system.

I'm not overly familiar with the Rolleis except for the old TLRs so I
can't help you out there.

Many people I know who expanded from 35mm SLR to medium format aren't
comfortable with the waist-level finder showing a reversed image, or
their primary subject is people and they prefer eye-level interaction.

Once you know how these cameras feel you'll be in much better shape to
go over your negs/transparencies and see how everything measures up.

Good luck!

--
jon fabian
looked good on paper
f a b i a n "at" p a n i x "dot" c o m