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#11
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No P&S for a serious hobbyist?
AAvK wrote:
: This is not how to respond to people. : ...you worthless disrespectful cretin! : You are absolutely mentally abnormal psychiatrically. There is a mental : illness named " anti-social " and this a physical brain condition. : : YOU SHOULD NEVER treat people who work to help you as though they : were a piece of trash that you simply use, and I'll never reply to you again. : And if I ever do, it will be an interjection in order to cut you down! : : You are a complete and total zodiak weakling with a zero level of : conscienciousness OR respect, OR appreciation for the kindness it : takes for some to work and use their personal time to help you out. : And in return, YOU absolutely have no valid opinion whatsoever. Funny how people who wag their finger when they obviously don't know what they are talking about, suddenly become "touch me not" sensitive when they are at the receiving end. All posts in this thread remain for all to see. Each participant here can evaluate our conduct for himself or herself. I am appreciative of everyone who offered sincere advice or opinion. Do you see anybody else foaming and ranting like you are? None of us knows it all, but we act with that awareness. -- Z (Remove all XX, YY, ZZ) |
#12
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Olympus 560 UZ
I wrote:
: The lightest of [SLR-likes] with 28-200+ is Panasonic Lumix FZ-18, which : got alphabetically cut off in your list. If you wish, you can look it : up directly or get to it by specifying the weight 500g. :-) At this point I have to say that the just announced Olympus 560 uz is also a candidate: http://www.dpreview.com/news/0708/07082309olysp560uz.asp -- Z (Remove all XX, YY, ZZ) |
#13
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No P&S for a serious hobbyist?
Living with a very nice film SLR, and a digital p&s, i decided to
investigate a serious ditial p&s as my travel camera: compact size, 28-200 range, manual control. Frankly, I am disgusted that with so many companies flooding the market with so many models that they must be running out of model numbers to name them, they have all decided not to offer even a single model that will appeal to a serious hobbyist like me! The cameras with all the feature I want are way too big for the purpose (Lumix FZ-18, oLympus 550 SZ). Cameras of manageable size make you give up on some important featu Lumix TZ-3 (no manual control) and LX2 (limited telephoto) are probably the best examples. So, I'll have to decide which feature to give up: compact size (FZ-18), manual control (tz-3), telephoto (lx-2 or Leica version). If it is telephoto I decide to give up, then I'd also investigate the Ricoh models that start at 24mm. Or I could just wait until somebody offers the first p&s for me. Why spend money and still be unhappy? It is not like I don't have any cameras to take pictures right now. What you want is difficult to find, and not just because camera manufacturers are idiots who focus too much on gadgets & spec and not enough on picture quality. Because they're able to keep adding & enhancing features on P&S cameras, it's tempting to believe they can do anything. But the physical limitations of the small sensor size, *especially* for wide-angle, become the deal breaker. You & I are spoiled rotten, both of us by our SLRs (you by your film, me by my Canon 350XT). And we want those same features & quality in a P&S. And why not? Because it's darned near impossible to design a wide-angle wide-range zoom lens for a camera with a tiny sensor that doesn't display quite a bit of chromatic aberration at the wide end. Even at 35mm it's a problem (about the only real issue with my Fuji F10 & F30). Thus a severe limitation on picture quality that can't be overcome with all manner of added features (image stabilization, raw shooting, manual modes, etc). My perfect camera would have all the features you want, with slight modification. I don't need the super-long lens (100-150 at the long end would be fine) but I'd love to have a 24 at the bottom... but would settle for a 28. The wide range would be great because I take photos while riding my bike, and can't take a whole lot of time setting up my shots. Raw mode would be nice, because you've got more to deal with when correcting exposure issues. A decent manual mode would be nice, and I'd *love* to have a manual or fixed-focus option (because, when taking photos while riding, nearly everything of interest is going to be 20+ feet away). Also long battery life (the Fuji F30 excels there!) is a must. And I'd be willing to pay extra $$$ for a great lens!!! The lens is absolutely the weakest link in the Fuji F30. One last thing would be reasonable moisture protection. So I want it all too! But for top-quality photos, I'm going to have to stick with my Rebel 350XT. Not because it has better electronics and shooting modes, but because I can hang a wonderful piece of glass on it. Sigh. If I'm wrong, and you find that perfect camera, please let me know. I want it too! --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles www.ChainReactionBicycles.com |
#14
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No P&S for a serious hobbyist?
Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
Living with a very nice film SLR, and a digital p&s, i decided to investigate a serious ditial p&s as my travel camera: compact size, 28-200 range, manual control. Frankly, I am disgusted that with so many companies flooding the market with so many models that they must be running out of model numbers to name them, they have all decided not to offer even a single model that will appeal to a serious hobbyist like me! The cameras with all the feature I want are way too big for the purpose (Lumix FZ-18, oLympus 550 SZ). Cameras of manageable size make you give up on some important featu Lumix TZ-3 (no manual control) and LX2 (limited telephoto) are probably the best examples. So, I'll have to decide which feature to give up: compact size (FZ-18), manual control (tz-3), telephoto (lx-2 or Leica version). If it is telephoto I decide to give up, then I'd also investigate the Ricoh models that start at 24mm. Or I could just wait until somebody offers the first p&s for me. Why spend money and still be unhappy? It is not like I don't have any cameras to take pictures right now. What you want is difficult to find, and not just because camera manufacturers are idiots who focus too much on gadgets & spec and not enough on picture quality. Because they're able to keep adding & enhancing features on P&S cameras, it's tempting to believe they can do anything. But the physical limitations of the small sensor size, *especially* for wide-angle, become the deal breaker. You & I are spoiled rotten, both of us by our SLRs (you by your film, me by my Canon 350XT). And we want those same features & quality in a P&S. And why not? Because it's darned near impossible to design a wide-angle wide-range zoom lens for a camera with a tiny sensor that doesn't display quite a bit of chromatic aberration at the wide end. Even at 35mm it's a problem (about the only real issue with my Fuji F10 & F30). Thus a severe limitation on picture quality that can't be overcome with all manner of added features (image stabilization, raw shooting, manual modes, etc). My perfect camera would have all the features you want, with slight modification. I don't need the super-long lens (100-150 at the long end would be fine) but I'd love to have a 24 at the bottom... but would settle for a 28. The wide range would be great because I take photos while riding my bike, and can't take a whole lot of time setting up my shots. Raw mode would be nice, because you've got more to deal with when correcting exposure issues. A decent manual mode would be nice, and I'd *love* to have a manual or fixed-focus option (because, when taking photos while riding, nearly everything of interest is going to be 20+ feet away). Also long battery life (the Fuji F30 excels there!) is a must. And I'd be willing to pay extra $$$ for a great lens!!! The lens is absolutely the weakest link in the Fuji F30. One last thing would be reasonable moisture protection. So I want it all too! But for top-quality photos, I'm going to have to stick with my Rebel 350XT. Not because it has better electronics and shooting modes, but because I can hang a wonderful piece of glass on it. Sigh. If I'm wrong, and you find that perfect camera, please let me know. I want it too! --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles www.ChainReactionBicycles.com Hi, I would also more settle with your Ideas.... But right now, I will probably buy one of the chdk-hack-compatible Canon Powershots. So I have the RAW Format... just most of those Cameras start at 35mm... So I might try with a conversion lens if that doesnt make it too big. I wait some time, so maybe the Powershot S80 will be supported soon, which will solve my issues. The cool thing with the hack is that you can let it set up hyper focal distance for you and run scripts. But of course after all, the hack is not such a good solution as some programs just don't eat the raw format and need a conversion to dng with a special tool before doing so. The Powershot G9 will also just start at 35mm It's really a shame for all Camera manufacturers out there, except maybe Ricoh and Sigma which at least have an approach to something different. (Whilst Ricohs Sensor-experiences aren't the best, Sigma just wants to offer a fixed lens, and not something like any Zoom) I'm in for the perfect camera too! ;-) - Dennis |
#15
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No P&S for a serious hobbyist?
Olympus SP-560 UZ and Panasonic FZ18 begin at 28mm and seem to offer
many things you want. Ricoh GX100 begins at 24mm. Sorry, nothing can be done about small sensors. It seems to be a "cartel" decision not to offer decent size sensors in P&S cameras. |
#16
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No P&S for a serious hobbyist?
Olympus SP-560 UZ and Panasonic FZ18 begin at 28mm and seem to offer
many things you want. Ricoh GX100 begins at 24mm. Sorry, nothing can be done about small sensors. It seems to be a "cartel" decision not to offer decent size sensors in P&S cameras. Not exactly. Larger sensors dictate larger lenses. And larger lenses make for a... bigger camera. Darn, hate those simple laws of physics. --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles www.ChainReactionBicycles.com |
#17
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No P&S for a serious hobbyist?
Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
Olympus SP-560 UZ and Panasonic FZ18 begin at 28mm and seem to offer many things you want. Ricoh GX100 begins at 24mm. Sorry, nothing can be done about small sensors. It seems to be a "cartel" decision not to offer decent size sensors in P&S cameras. Not exactly. Larger sensors dictate larger lenses. And larger lenses make for a... bigger camera. Darn, hate those simple laws of physics. --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles www.ChainReactionBicycles.com That's not really correct... There were also a lot of small pocketable cameras in the 35mm-film age, when there were no digital sensors.... And they were able of having things like a 3x zoom and things like that. The lenses weren't really/much bigger than of current pocketable digicams. examples: Fujifilm DL-270 ZOOM, Pentax IQZoom 115, .. just look for compact cameras at ebay --Dennis |
#18
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No P&S for a serious hobbyist?
Sorry, nothing can be done about small sensors. It seems to be a
"cartel" decision not to offer decent size sensors in P&S cameras. Not exactly. Larger sensors dictate larger lenses. And larger lenses make for a... bigger camera. Darn, hate those simple laws of physics. --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles www.ChainReactionBicycles.com That's not really correct... There were also a lot of small pocketable cameras in the 35mm-film age, when there were no digital sensors.... And they were able of having things like a 3x zoom and things like that. The lenses weren't really/much bigger than of current pocketable digicams. examples: Fujifilm DL-270 ZOOM, Pentax IQZoom 115, .. just look for compact cameras at ebay --Dennis Afraid the laws of physics still apply. I took a quick look at the Pentax you listed; at wide-angle, the max aperture is F4. The Fuji is even worse, at F5. That's how they got the lens size down, no magic involved. If you've got a large imaging area (either film or digital sensor), it's going to take a correspondingly large piece of glass for the same amount of light to hit the sensor. Small cameras, whether film or digital, simply cannot disobey the basic laws of physics. You can make the lens smaller (and thus camera size) by either using a smaller sensor or giving up an F stop or two. Perhaps we could evolve a digital sensor so incredibly sensitive that it could be very small and noise-free, such that a lens with a max aperture of F8 is all that's needed. That could really get size down! But then I'm told there are problems with such a small lens, due to the refraction of light at extreme angles (if I've got this right). Did pinhole cameras have such issues? :) --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles www.ChainReactionBicycles.com |
#19
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No P&S for a serious hobbyist?
Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
Sorry, nothing can be done about small sensors. It seems to be a "cartel" decision not to offer decent size sensors in P&S cameras. Not exactly. Larger sensors dictate larger lenses. And larger lenses make for a... bigger camera. Darn, hate those simple laws of physics. --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles www.ChainReactionBicycles.com That's not really correct... There were also a lot of small pocketable cameras in the 35mm-film age, when there were no digital sensors.... And they were able of having things like a 3x zoom and things like that. The lenses weren't really/much bigger than of current pocketable digicams. examples: Fujifilm DL-270 ZOOM, Pentax IQZoom 115, .. just look for compact cameras at ebay --Dennis Afraid the laws of physics still apply. I took a quick look at the Pentax you listed; at wide-angle, the max aperture is F4. The Fuji is even worse, at F5. That's how they got the lens size down, no magic involved. If you've got a large imaging area (either film or digital sensor), it's going to take a correspondingly large piece of glass for the same amount of light to hit the sensor. Small cameras, whether film or digital, simply cannot disobey the basic laws of physics. You can make the lens smaller (and thus camera size) by either using a smaller sensor or giving up an F stop or two. Perhaps we could evolve a digital sensor so incredibly sensitive that it could be very small and noise-free, such that a lens with a max aperture of F8 is all that's needed. That could really get size down! But then I'm told there are problems with such a small lens, due to the refraction of light at extreme angles (if I've got this right). Did pinhole cameras have such issues? :) --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles www.ChainReactionBicycles.com Yeah, of course the lens will let through less light, but that doesn't mean it's not possible. With a bigger sensor you can then push up the ISO, and it will be less noisy. Of course the lens will let less light through. So in the end you might have the same, if there wasn't diffraction. And I also think the factor of the lens letting light through depending on the image circle is not directly proportional to a sensor being more or less sensitive to light and being more/less noisy depending on the image circle it can capture. I think that it behaves more exponential at sensor size, but linear in lens size? I'm not sure at all, but to my observation it looks like that (at least as a rule of thumb). So, I think, a bigger and more sensitive sensor and slower (letting less light through) lens will be a better combination than a fast lens and small sensor. (also because of the diffraction, and yes pinholes can suffer from diffraction, but if you have a larger format camera it will be less) --Dennis |
#20
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No P&S for a serious hobbyist?
So, I think, a bigger and more sensitive sensor and slower (letting less
light through) lens will be a better combination than a fast lens and small sensor. (also because of the diffraction, and yes pinholes can suffer from diffraction, but if you have a larger format camera it will be less) So you're proposing an extraordinary sensor that could work at, say, F16 and deliver great images. One thing's for certain; you'd have great depth of field! Of course, that can be as much a curse as a blessing. We need someone with strong knowledge of optics to help us out on this one. Anyone want to step in? --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles www.ChainReactionBicycles.com |
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