Where will B&W be in 5, 10, 20, 50, 100 .... years

Gregory Blank wrote:

In article ,
Tom Phillips wrote:

Uh...I already can't buy anything less than a 50 sheet
seagull in 16x20 at $150+. And I still buy it.

$150 is what I paid for a box of Elite in 1992. I guess thats still a
good price although I have been getting Forte direct from the distributer
for a lot cheaper.

What I meant was you can't get it in 10/25 sheets
anymore. But I still buy the 50 even though 10
is all I need at ay one time..

In article ,
rafe bustin wrote:


The storage issue is critical but completely common
between the two competing technologies, right?

Yes storage issue are the common problem of both.

Seriously though... carbon pigment inks on cotton rag...
what's to limit the longevity? Cave paintings made
with charcoal have lasted how long? I'd be more
worried about the cotton than the ink.

If the ink is just B&W then carbon would work just fine for life span
that is if its just carbon without some sort of binding agent that can
fail. Of course I have not seen every B&W ink jet print out there but
the one's I have seen lack from a Silver print in tonal scale and
general luminance. But if your talking color ultrachrome I still remain
a skeptic. Maybe my view will change on this in the future so I am
not completely unsold :-)

--
LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918

On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 12:36:04 GMT, Gregory Blank
wrote:

In article ,
rafe bustin wrote:


The storage issue is critical but completely common
between the two competing technologies, right?

Yes storage issue are the common problem of both.

Seriously though... carbon pigment inks on cotton rag...
what's to limit the longevity? Cave paintings made
with charcoal have lasted how long? I'd be more
worried about the cotton than the ink.

If the ink is just B&W then carbon would work just fine for life span
that is if its just carbon without some sort of binding agent that can
fail. Of course I have not seen every B&W ink jet print out there but
the one's I have seen lack from a Silver print in tonal scale and
general luminance. But if your talking color ultrachrome I still remain
a skeptic. Maybe my view will change on this in the future so I am
not completely unsold :-)


I share your skepticism that a perfectly
neutral BW print can be made with Ultrachromes.

I haven't seen the evidence either way, though
I've heard several folks make the claim.

The other fallacy here is that unbleached,
uncoated cotton rag makes a rather poor
substrate for any photographs requiring
detail and/or dynamic range.


rafe b.
http://www.terrapinphoto.com

Steven Kefford wrote:
Nicholas O. Lindan wrote:

If there is enough participation the average of the
predictions often turns out to be pretty accurate.


The subject of more meaningless forecasts :-)

What Nicholas said is true -- if you get answers from a broad enough
sample, the results tend to be reliable. Planners use the technique to
determine future growth patterns in the regions they administer.

My prediction: B&W printing will be pretty much the same in the future
as it is now. Significant, but not huge.

Bob

Tom Phillips wrote:
Black and white silver imaging will always be practiced
as an art form. Plus in 1000 years when all those digital
files stored on hard drives and CDs have disappeared,
photos on film (any film) will still be here. Difference
between having a real bird in hand vs two cyberbush birds
that don't really exist to begin with.

Images from digital files can be archivally printed too. Why do you
think that photos from color film will be around in 1000 years? I've got
color prints that have already faded; there's no way they will last 100
years, let alone 1000.

Bob

"bob" wrote

the same in the future as it is now.

Only more so.

--
Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix . netcom . com
psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/

Bob wrote:

Images from digital files can be archivally printed too. Why do you
think that photos from color film will be around in 1000 years? I've got
color prints that have already faded; there's no way they will last 100
years, let alone 1000.


Agreed. Color and BW printing (both traditional and
inkjet) are qualitatively different.

I'll put my money on pigment inks, but dyes are
inherently less stable. The only hope for dye ink
longevity is a very compatible substrate that can
prevent oxidation of the inks. I don't know how
one might prevent the breakdown of dye molecules
from simple photon energy. Gelatin and swellable
polymer substrates seem to be the key to dye ink
longevity.


rafe b.
http://www.terrapinphoto.com

rafeb wrote:

I'll put my money on pigment inks, but dyes are
inherently less stable. The only hope for dye ink
longevity is a very compatible substrate that can
prevent oxidation of the inks. I don't know how

I'm particularly interested in the archival qualites of color laser
printout. I have a feeling that the prints will last as long as the
paper, but I don't know with certainty. They don't seem to be impacted
by UV.

Bob

bob wrote:

Tom Phillips wrote:
Black and white silver imaging will always be practiced
as an art form. Plus in 1000 years when all those digital
files stored on hard drives and CDs have disappeared,
photos on film (any film) will still be here. Difference
between having a real bird in hand vs two cyberbush birds
that don't really exist to begin with.

Images from digital files can be archivally printed too. Why do you
think that photos from color film will be around in 1000 years?

Bob, I thought this thread was about b&w...

_Film_ can easily last 1000 years, color or b&w. Ever hear
of transparencies? No digital file will ever come close; in
a 1000 years you probably won't even be able to read the
media it's stored on even if the data hasn't yet corrupted
(fat chance.) These issues and facts have been discussed ad
nauseam (at least in in r.p.dakroom), so I guess you just
haven't read the info. Plus, the very real likelihood/danger
is _all_ digital information may disappear (big article
recently in the NY Times on this...) except that diligently
maintained by the government (after all, they have to spy on
somebody...)

BTW, inkjets are not photographs, they're reproductions from
stored computer data. There is no photograph in the digital
process. It's all regenerated data (electrons - voltage -
digital signals - magnetic data bits - screen pixels) until
output as an reproduction from a digital file (i.e., drops of
ink sprayed onto paper.) Sprayed ink is not a photograph; it's
fancy newsprint

Now, when those repro images on fancy giclee newsprint have
been around as long as real silver photographs (almost 200
years and counting), get back to me and we'll talk about
inkjet longevity ;-)

I've got
color prints that have already faded; there's no way they will last 100
years, let alone 1000.

In fact, typical color dye prints today do have a display life
of at least 100 years. Color technology is more advanced than
when I'm guessing you printed those. OTOH, it's _all_ a matter
of storage and display with color materials. All color dyes,
inks, etc will fade if not stored or displayed properly. If
your prints have faded, I doubt it's the print's fault. I have
ciba's on my wall that look like the day I printed then 30
years ago.

bob wrote:

rafeb wrote:

I'll put my money on pigment inks, but dyes are
inherently less stable. The only hope for dye ink
longevity is a very compatible substrate that can
prevent oxidation of the inks. I don't know how

I'm particularly interested in the archival qualites of color laser
printout. I have a feeling that the prints will last as long as the
paper, but I don't know with certainty. They don't seem to be impacted
by UV.

Those are _silver_ based images (assuming you're talking about
lightjets, etc.) Inks and pigments have to be sprayed. You're
mixing up a lot of terms and printing technologies here...