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No need for a tilt shift lens.



 
 
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  #21  
Old October 31st 05, 02:47 PM
Lorem Ipsum
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Default No need for a tilt shift lens.


"Malcolm Stewart" wrote in
message ...
"Scott W" wrote in message
oups.com...
I have read from a number of people the LF cameras have a large


But with today's panoramic tools this seems like much less of an
issue.


You really ought to post this in the large format ng as well.
rec.photo.equipment.large-format


Be kind and remind the OP to wear a flame-proof suit along.


  #22  
Old October 31st 05, 02:52 PM
Lorem Ipsum
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Default No need for a tilt shift lens.

"Scott W" wrote in message
oups.com...
Malcolm Stewart wrote:

You really ought to post this in the large format ng as well.
rec.photo.equipment.large-format

I thought about that but it seemed to me that would be a bit of a
troll.

Most of those people have no interest in digital, those who do will see
the post here.


Actually digital printing of LF media is very popular among that group. I
would risk a guess that more than 30% of them scan, then print digitally
with the number increasing all the time and that over time more and more
will be manipulating the image to 'fix' LF movements errors.


  #23  
Old October 31st 05, 02:55 PM
Lorem Ipsum
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Default No need for a tilt shift lens.

"John A. Stovall" wrote in message
news
They are very common among FF Digital shooters who do architecture and
product photos. Canon make three different models.


True, and they represent fine technology. However, they are such a bear to
use, so fussy, so lacking in depth-of-focus (not to be confused with
depth-of-field) that one has to be a saint-of-precision to use them
properly.


  #24  
Old October 31st 05, 03:10 PM
Robert Feinman
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Default No need for a tilt shift lens.

In article .com,
says...
I have read from a number of people the LF cameras have a large
advantage over other cameras because they can shift the lens and
thereby avoid perspective distortion that a camera with a fix lens
would suffer.

But with today's panoramic tools this seems like much less of an
issue.
This is what a very wide angle photos looks like without shifting the
lens in software.
http://www.pbase.com/camping05/image/51504534/large
Note how everything seems to be pointing in as you good up in the
photos.

This is the same panoramic but with shifting the center of view
http://www.pbase.com/camping05/image/51504652/large

To see a higher resolution view of either of these two photos click on
original.

Now this photos does not have the resolution of a LF camera, but then
this was made from just four photos stitched together. There is little
limit to the resolution, just add more photos. This is what 16 photos
stitched together look like.

BTW I am using PTGui to stitch the photos.

Scott


If you are willing to live with the compromises one gets from digital
editing (most of which have already been mentioned) you can still
do some novel things.
Here is an example of an "impossible" perspective from one of my tips:

http://robertdfeinman.com/tips/tip32/tip32.html

Doing this with a view camera (assuming you could get permission to
set it up) would require such an extreme swing I doubt the lens would
cover properly.

Not every picture has to be "perfect". We all know when the special
qualities of large format are really needed. I shoot a lot with
a Pentax 6x7 now instead of 4x5. Correcting perspective is easy
in Photoshop, but the loss of Scheimpflug capability is sometimes
a nuisance.

--
Robert D Feinman
Landscapes, Cityscapes and Panoramic Photographs
http://robertdfeinman.com
mail:
  #25  
Old October 31st 05, 03:55 PM
David Littlewood
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Default No need for a tilt shift lens.

In article , Lorem Ipsum
writes
"John A. Stovall" wrote in message
news
They are very common among FF Digital shooters who do architecture and
product photos. Canon make three different models.


True, and they represent fine technology. However, they are such a bear to
use, so fussy, so lacking in depth-of-focus (not to be confused with
depth-of-field) that one has to be a saint-of-precision to use them
properly.


Not true - and I speak as one who takes about 15-20% of my photos using
Canon TS-E lenses, mostly the 24mm, and mostly in shift-only mode.

And, I suppose, therein lies the clue. If you have never used on before,
they are strange. If you use them all the time, they are hardly any more
tricky in shift mode than a normal lens. You simply meter with the lens
centred, shift, and take. Hand-held works fine, and it takes about 2
seconds longer than "normal"*. You can use manual (which I prefer if not
in a hurry) or exposure lock if speed is required.

Tilt is, I agree, slightly more involved, and is probably best done on a
tripod (though I have done it hand held).

I think you are missing the point when you say that depth of focus is a
problem. It is precisely no problem at all when using shift - it is
exactly as for a normal lens. With shift, more often than not it is
solving a problem, not creating it - moving the plane of focus to
coincide with the shape of the subject. It does take more practice
though. The major problem I have is that the focus ring can easily get
moved if you are not taking care (the focus confirmation works, but the
focussing is of course manual).

*Would someone like to try to tell me that they can do a correction in
software in 2 seconds?

David
--
David Littlewood
  #26  
Old October 31st 05, 04:02 PM
Lorem Ipsum
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Default No need for a tilt shift lens.

"Chris Brown" wrote in message
...
As you point out, the effects of shift can be accomplished through
resampling in a Pantools-type application.

Tilt, however, is a completely different matter. Here's what you can do
with
tilt:

http://narcissus.dyndns.org/Chris/Tilt.jpg


Good old Chris - even lying on the floor after he's drained the bottles, he
does his photography. (The bottle to the right is tilting in. In real life!)


  #27  
Old October 31st 05, 04:04 PM
David Littlewood
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Default No need for a tilt shift lens.

In article , Chris Brown
writes
As you point out, the effects of shift can be accomplished through
resampling in a Pantools-type application.

Tilt, however, is a completely different matter. Here's what you can do with
tilt:

http://narcissus.dyndns.org/Chris/Tilt.jpg

I took that on an MPP VII 4x5 view camera using a Schneider 150mm Symmar
using both front and rear-tilt. Note that the focus plane actually runs
*horizontally*, parallel to the axis of the lens.


This would be the way to get, say, a field of flowers in sharp focus.

Another way of taking it would be to have the focal plane vertical, but at
an incline, so it ran through both bottles, using horizontal-tilt instead of
vertical tilt.


Surely this would have been better for the bottles - if you wanted a
sharp picture rather than a demonstration shot.

If you took a picture with a very large depth of field, you might be able to
selectively blur bits of it to try and get the same effect, but it;s going
to be hard work, and for close-ups you may not be able to get the DoF in the
first place. I doubt I would have been able to get both bottles in focus if
I'd taken it on my 5D, even if the lens let me stop down all the way to
f/32.

Image details - 150mm, f/22, 1/400, 400 ISO Polaroid B&W. I could probably
have got the tops looking sharp as well if I'd stopped down to f/64, but I
specifically wanted something that demonstrated tilt.


A man who likes Islay malt! I must say I find a little goes a long way,
I normally prefer the less in-your-face flavours of mainland products.

David
--
David Littlewood
  #28  
Old October 31st 05, 04:05 PM
David Littlewood
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Default No need for a tilt shift lens.

In article ,
Bob Salomon writes
In article ,
Chris Brown wrote:

I could probably
have got the tops looking sharp as well if I'd stopped down to f/64


You would also have been well into diffraction with that lens at f64.

Well, with any lens at f/64.
--
David Littlewood
  #29  
Old October 31st 05, 04:06 PM
Lorem Ipsum
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Posts: n/a
Default No need for a tilt shift lens.


"Scott W" wrote in message
ups.com...

Here is a wide angle shot of a building using panoramic stitching, yes
I know the lighting was terrible, but I think the building did not come
out too bad.

http://www.pbase.com/camping05/image/50543206/original


It needs swing.


  #30  
Old October 31st 05, 04:07 PM
David Littlewood
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Default No need for a tilt shift lens.

In article , David J. Littleboy
writes

"Chris Brown" wrote:
Bob Salomon wrote:
In article ,
Chris Brown wrote:

I could probably
have got the tops looking sharp as well if I'd stopped down to f/64

You would also have been well into diffraction with that lens at f64.


On a 400 ISO Polaroid, I don't think I'd care!


Diffraction is roughly a 50% MTF hit at 800/(f number) and a zero MTF at
1600/(f number).

For f/64, those are 12.5 and 25 lp/mm, respectively. So a 16x20 (4x, with
usable detail with sharpening in the 3 to 4 lp/mm range) from a 4x5 at f/64
would look better than a 16x20 from a 5D (17x, well under 3 lp/mm (since
whatever lens and f stop you use, the 5D will be well under 50% MTF at 40
lp/mm)).

Try telling that to Ilya in the "When to use a smaller aperture" thread!

David
--
David Littlewood
 




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