Anyone have experience using 35mm tilt & shift ?

Please forgive me for asking this question in lg. format NG. But I'm
hoping that you folks might know more about this, than the people at
smaller format NGs.

I've been invited to be to participate in an architectural project.
The goal is publication. My tools of choice are a 4x5 monorail using
scanned negative color film w/ 4 lenses of 240mm; 150mm; 90mm; & one
shorter. I have the first four. I would have to obtain the shorter
one.

However the financier of the projects wants to use digital. (For
environmental, health, and reasons of economy. [Her opinions, not
mine] Plus she is very skilled w/ Photoshop) Do to the incredibly high
cost of digital for any format larger that full 35mm, we are left w/
no choice other than 35mm or smaller.

1. Of the several 35mm format, or smaller, tilt & shift lenses, do any
give enough shift to actually be of much value for correcting
perspective?

2. Also how does one compose & focus on a mirror that's between the
lens & focal plane w/ the lens shifted? Wouldn't the angle of mirror
being between the lens & focal plane cause distortion or misalignment
of the image between the focal plane & the SLR ground glass?

Oh by the way, I'm basing these questions on the assumption that all
4x5 digital backs are in the $20K range. I hope I'm wrong. Are there
any $10K? That would fit the budget, and be ideal.

Thanks for any help John

On Wed, 16 Jun 2004, John McGraw wrote:

1. Of the several 35mm format, or smaller, tilt & shift lenses, do any
give enough shift to actually be of much value for correcting
perspective?

try the canon FD 2.8/35 TS (used for about 500$)
shift in one direction, tilt in the other; rotatable - so that you can
actually use combinations of horizontal and vertical shift.

2. Also how does one compose & focus on a mirror that's between the
lens & focal plane w/ the lens shifted? Wouldn't the angle of mirror
being between the lens & focal plane cause distortion or misalignment
of the image between the focal plane & the SLR ground glass?

?

compose as usual

regards,

berko

"John McGraw"


I've been invited to be to participate in an architectural project.
The goal is publication. My tools of choice are a 4x5 monorail using
scanned negative color film w/ 4 lenses of 240mm; 150mm; 90mm; & one
shorter. I have the first four. I would have to obtain the shorter
one.

However the financier of the projects wants to use digital. (For
environmental, health, and reasons of economy.

environmental & health: Whole lot of pollution in the manufacturing
of digital cameras: semiconductor factory, battery factory - and
it's _nasty_ pollution: potassium hexafluoroarsenate (fluorine
and arsenic, yum), tank cars of chlorocarbons (no better than
fluorocarbons, but it skirts the law). Compare that to the
ingredients of a wood-field. And $20,000 worth of manufacturing
is a lot of manufacturing creating a whole lot of waste.

Economy: I would have trouble finding a film camera costing $20,000
without getting egregiously greedy. A nice monorail/field is 1/20
the cost.

Digital fails on all three fronts.

Plus she is very skilled w/ PhotoShop)

Scan the tranny and she can 'shop till she drops.

Do to the incredibly high
cost of digital for any format larger that full 35mm, we are left w/
no choice other than 35mm or smaller.

That'll increase product quality.

1. Of the several 35mm format, or smaller, tilt & shift lenses, do any
give enough shift to actually be of much value for correcting
perspective?

Lots available w/ a bit of googling:

http://www.archiphoto.com/personal%2...nd%20Tilt.html

2. Also how does one compose & focus on a mirror that's between the
lens & focal plane w/ the lens shifted? Wouldn't the angle of mirror
being between the lens & focal plane cause distortion or misalignment
of the image between the focal plane & the SLR ground glass?

The mirror has no (depending on the quality of the mirror) optical effect
on the image. If the lens mount and/or mirror is too small you may have
some cut-off in the viewed image.

Oh by the way, I'm basing these questions on the assumption that all
4x5 digital backs are in the $20K range. I hope I'm wrong. Are there
any $10K? That would fit the budget, and be ideal.

I certainly wouldn't buy one of the things: Rent it! Whatever it is
it will be obsolete in 2 years and worth less than a door-stop in
four.

Thanks for any help

Worth price charged.

Me, I would find another client. Sounds like she is a micromanager -
she should be sticking with specifying what to photograph, the how
is up to you.

'Course if I owned a Leaf I would probably sing a different tune ...

--
Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
Remove spaces etc. to reply: n o lindan at net com dot com
psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/
John

John McGraw wrote:
Please forgive me for asking this question in lg. format NG. But I'm
hoping that you folks might know more about this, than the people at
smaller format NGs.

I've been invited to be to participate in an architectural project.
The goal is publication. My tools of choice are a 4x5 monorail using
scanned negative color film w/ 4 lenses of 240mm; 150mm; 90mm; & one
shorter. I have the first four. I would have to obtain the shorter
one.

However the financier of the projects wants to use digital. (For
environmental, health, and reasons of economy. [Her opinions, not
mine] Plus she is very skilled w/ Photoshop) Do to the incredibly high
cost of digital for any format larger that full 35mm, we are left w/
no choice other than 35mm or smaller.

1. Of the several 35mm format, or smaller, tilt & shift lenses, do any
give enough shift to actually be of much value for correcting
perspective?

2. Also how does one compose & focus on a mirror that's between the
lens & focal plane w/ the lens shifted? Wouldn't the angle of mirror
being between the lens & focal plane cause distortion or misalignment
of the image between the focal plane & the SLR ground glass?

Oh by the way, I'm basing these questions on the assumption that all
4x5 digital backs are in the $20K range. I hope I'm wrong. Are there
any $10K? That would fit the budget, and be ideal.

Thanks for any help John

What is her objection to using scanned negatives? Does she think
developing the film is too destructive to the environment? I shoot 4 x
5 Provira VC 160 (color negative film) and I scan with an Epson 3200.
You should be able to provide digital files beyond your client's wildest
dreams. I'm pretty environmentally conscious, but it seems to me that
developing color negative film for a project of this kind is pretty low
in the scale of environmental degradation. Also, I don't see much
difference in economy when you consider the cost of an adequate digital
SLR which can handle a shift lens.

As to your questions, I can't tell you if any shift tilt lens will work
with one of the standard digital SLRs. But keep in mind that with such
a camera, because of the small format and correspondingly smaller focal
lengths, you get enormous depth of field at the apertures you are likely
to be using. There should be no need to tilt the lens to get everything
in adequate focus. As to shifting, I doubt if you could get what you
get the flexibility you get with your 4 x 5 camera and lenses. You
would end up having to point the camera up and then leave it to her to
correct perspective in Photoshop. That can be done with some
degradation of the image, but it is difficult to preserve the ratio of
height to width for a building so as to accurately represent its
dimensions. Most people don't realize that and assume Photoshop can do
that automatically, but it can't. In most cases, it gets close, but to
get it right for a critical application like architecture requires some
mathematical sophistication and some calculation. A view camera gets it
right just by having the back vertical.

As to your second question, I don't see any reason why a suitably
designed SLR should have a problem with distortion if you use a shift
lens. The mirror just intercepts the light rays and turn them to
project on a screen other than the film plane. But it is possible
vignetting would affect what you saw.

John McGraw wrote:
Please forgive me for asking this question in lg. format NG. But I'm
hoping that you folks might know more about this, than the people at
smaller format NGs.

I've been invited to be to participate in an architectural project.
The goal is publication. My tools of choice are a 4x5 monorail using
scanned negative color film w/ 4 lenses of 240mm; 150mm; 90mm; & one
shorter. I have the first four. I would have to obtain the shorter
one.

However the financier of the projects wants to use digital. (For
environmental, health, and reasons of economy. [Her opinions, not
mine] Plus she is very skilled w/ Photoshop) Do to the incredibly high
cost of digital for any format larger that full 35mm, we are left w/
no choice other than 35mm or smaller.

1. Of the several 35mm format, or smaller, tilt & shift lenses, do any
give enough shift to actually be of much value for correcting
perspective?

2. Also how does one compose & focus on a mirror that's between the
lens & focal plane w/ the lens shifted? Wouldn't the angle of mirror
being between the lens & focal plane cause distortion or misalignment
of the image between the focal plane & the SLR ground glass?

Oh by the way, I'm basing these questions on the assumption that all
4x5 digital backs are in the $20K range. I hope I'm wrong. Are there
any $10K? That would fit the budget, and be ideal.

Thanks for any help John

P.S. If you can convince her that digitally scanned 4 x 5 film is okay,
consider getting the 72 mm Super Angulon XL. It seems the best choice
in that focal length range because of its large image circle.

"Leonard Evens" wrote in message
...
What is her objection to using scanned negatives? Does she think
developing the film is too destructive to the environment? I shoot 4 x
5 Provira VC 160 (color negative film) and I scan with an Epson 3200.
You should be able to provide digital files beyond your client's wildest
dreams. I'm pretty environmentally conscious, but it seems to me that
developing color negative film for a project of this kind is pretty low
in the scale of environmental degradation. Also, I don't see much
difference in economy when you consider the cost of an adequate digital
SLR which can handle a shift lens.

Many environmentalists are not rational people. It's sort of a religion.

Many environmentalists are not rational people. It's sort of a religion.
BRBR

Remember...you can't spell ENVIRONMENTALIST without the word MENTAL.

(John McGraw) wrote in message . com...

1. Of the several 35mm format, or smaller, tilt & shift lenses, do any
give enough shift to actually be of much value for correcting
perspective?

2. Also how does one compose & focus on a mirror that's between the
lens & focal plane w/ the lens shifted? Wouldn't the angle of mirror
being between the lens & focal plane cause distortion or misalignment
of the image between the focal plane & the SLR ground glass?

The reference to the article was a good one. Canon has made
Tilt-Shift lenses in both lens mounts, 35mm in the manual focus mount,
and 24mm, 45mm and 90mm in EOS mount. Arsat makes 35mm and 80mm
tilt-shift lenses in a variety of lens mount including M42 screw
mount. Almost all the camera companies (Nikon, Minolta, Olympus,
Pentax, etc.) made 28mm or 35mm Perspective Control lenses, without
tilt control, and some third party lenses are still available, such as
Schneider 28mm lens.

For many applications, the tilt-shift lens work very well although
they don't have the range of large format systems, but I only have the
experience with Minolta's 35mm f2.8 Shift-CA lens and Arsat's 80mm
f2.8 Tilt-Shift lens. The shift is generally +/- 11mm and the tilt
+/- 8 degrees. There is no optical distortion for the image to the
focusing screen, it's wysiwyg.

The best way to see is rent a Canon camera and their T-S lenses. As
stated the Canon's tilt is one directional, either perpendicular or
parallel (settable by service folks), so it's limiting, but the lenses
rotate (don't know click stops - Arsat's is 30 degree stops).

Good luck.

--Scott--

(John McGraw) wrote in message . com...

1. Of the several 35mm format, or smaller, tilt & shift lenses, do any
give enough shift to actually be of much value for correcting
perspective?

2. Also how does one compose & focus on a mirror that's between the
lens & focal plane w/ the lens shifted? Wouldn't the angle of mirror
being between the lens & focal plane cause distortion or misalignment
of the image between the focal plane & the SLR ground glass?

The reference to the article was a good one. Canon has made
Tilt-Shift lenses in both lens mounts, 35mm in the manual focus mount,
and 24mm, 45mm and 90mm in EOS mount. Arsat makes 35mm and 80mm
tilt-shift lenses in a variety of lens mount including M42 screw
mount. Almost all the camera companies (Nikon, Minolta, Olympus,
Pentax, etc.) made 28mm or 35mm Perspective Control lenses, without
tilt control, and some third party lenses are still available, such as
Schneider 28mm lens.

For many applications, the tilt-shift lens work very well although
they don't have the range of large format systems, but I only have the
experience with Minolta's 35mm f2.8 Shift-CA lens and Arsat's 80mm
f2.8 Tilt-Shift lens. The shift is generally +/- 11mm and the tilt
+/- 8 degrees. There is no optical distortion for the image to the
focusing screen, it's wysiwyg.

The best way to see is rent a Canon camera and their T-S lenses. As
stated the Canon's tilt is one directional, either perpendicular or
parallel (settable by service folks), so it's limiting, but the lenses
rotate (don't know click stops - Arsat's is 30 degree stops).

Good luck.

--Scott--

Many environmentalists are not rational people. It's sort of a religion.

Better to stick with discussing sex and politics.

--
Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
Remove spaces etc. to reply: n o lindan at net com dot com
psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/