Used MF Prices --- I Should be Happy but not

"Geoffrey S. Mendelson" wrote in message
...
Toni Nikkanen wrote:

My standard answer to these 120 film worries is this:
There's enough 120 film sitting in store shelves, warehouses,
in photographer's freezers etc. that if all production
stopped tomorrow, which it won't, the remaining stock will last
way over 2 years.

It depends upon the film. Color film will deteriorate due to aging and
have a color shift. Being kept in the freezer will slow this down the
most,
a refrigerator not as much. If you don't care about subtle color shifts,
even film kept at room temperature will be good for 5-10 years.

All film will be subject to fogging due to cosmic radiation, no matter
what temperature you keep it at, and where you keep it. ISO 1600 film
will start to show noticable fog in about 2 years, ISO 100 in about 32.
Of course it all depends upon your definition of noticable fog.

My expectation is that long before refrigerated film is no longer truely
useable, environmental or anti-terrorist laws will restrict the
availability of processing chemicals and the lack of replacement parts,
batteries and skilled labor to repair your cameras will render them all
display items.

So stock up on film, buy your cameras and have fun. Just be aware that if
you
can buy 120 (or any other) film locally, you may not be able to get it in
a
few years, and you will have to mail order it. It depends upon where you
live.

My contribution to this thread to you (particularly those in black and white
imagery) in the USA - stay close to and patronize/support Freestyle in Los
Angeles, California.
http://www.freestylephoto.biz/

On 2004-10-13 14:05:16 -0400, "MATT WILLIAMS" said:

I have been using and learning about MF now for about five years. I started
out with a Seagull and after reading about them and their limitations I sold
it and in the past few years I have picked up a Mamiya 645 with a couple of
extra lenses, A Yashica D with the a Yashinon lens, A very nice Agfa 6X6
with a Solinar lens folder that I had reconditioned with new bellows and
takes great pictures. I also own a Canon 7n 35mm camera and a Digital Rebel
300 that my wife bought me for Christmas last year. This is not meant to be
a thread on digital vs. MF. I use both and I like to use the histogram on
the Digital Rebel to give me a better idea on exposure for my MF pictures,
especially sunrises and pictures of mountains with snow on them. I take
mainly landscapes. I have been watching for years the prices of MF used
equipment fall 30-50% on ebay and KEH. Mamiya zoom lenses are now with in my
reach to purchase for my M645. I should be happy about this , but I am
wondering how long Fuji and Kodak will continue to make 120 film.
I still love MF and want to keep using film. I have a Epson 2450 (I know
it old, but it works) and can scan my slides and can have them printed or
blown up locally. I just purchased a 35mm slide scanner so I do the same as
the local photo shops don't want to take the time to set up their mini labs
to scan 35mm slides correctly. I have a lot of money invested in MF and am
thinking about a few more purchases. Yet, if I can not get the 120 film in a
few years it will be a waste to buy more lenses or another camera (been
thinking about a Fuji GA645) . Looks like Kodak has stopped all research on
developing new film. Where is Fuji at ? I have heard many times that there
will always be film made, but I am wondering at what price ? If the demand
goes down these companies must make a profit. Bronica just stopped making
most of their MF cameras. Does anyone know what the "official" or public
statements that film companies have make on there continued support of 120
(or 220) film. Will Agfa photo (just spun off from the main company in a
management buyout) continue to make 120 film ? Sorry for the long post, but
I still want to be shooting film ten years from now. Any feedback would be
appreciated . Matt

Last fall Kodak reintroduced Ektar as a 100 ISO film in 35mm only, but
I now see it on Adorama in 120 rolls and 5-packs (not yet in stock but
coming). So if Kodak is still coming out with new emulsions, and Fuji
saved ISO 50 Velvia, there is hope for your MF cameras as well as my
Pentax 6x7 and my Rolleicord.
--
Michael

On Sat, 4 Apr 2009 18:52:20 +0000 (UTC), "Geoffrey S. Mendelson"
wrote:

It depends upon the film. Color film will deteriorate due to aging and
have a color shift. Being kept in the freezer will slow this down the most,
a refrigerator not as much. If you don't care about subtle color shifts,
even film kept at room temperature will be good for 5-10 years.

As cosmic radiation will affect film wherever it's kept, and if it's
only colour shifting which is slowed by freezing, does that mean there
is no point in keeping b/w film in the freezer at all? (serious
question, I need the space in my freezer!)

MATT WILLIAMS wrote:
I have been using and learning about MF now for about five years. I started
out with a Seagull and after reading about them and their limitations I sold
it and in the past few years I have picked up a Mamiya 645 with a couple of
extra lenses, A Yashica D with the a Yashinon lens, A very nice Agfa 6X6
with a Solinar lens folder that I had reconditioned with new bellows and
takes great pictures. I also own a Canon 7n 35mm camera and a Digital Rebel
300 that my wife bought me for Christmas last year. This is not meant to be
a thread on digital vs. MF. I use both and I like to use the histogram on
the Digital Rebel to give me a better idea on exposure for my MF pictures,
especially sunrises and pictures of mountains with snow on them. I take
mainly landscapes. I have been watching for years the prices of MF used
equipment fall 30-50% on ebay and KEH. Mamiya zoom lenses are now with in my
reach to purchase for my M645. I should be happy about this , but I am
wondering how long Fuji and Kodak will continue to make 120 film.
I still love MF and want to keep using film. I have a Epson 2450 (I know
it old, but it works) and can scan my slides and can have them printed or
blown up locally. I just purchased a 35mm slide scanner so I do the same as
the local photo shops don't want to take the time to set up their mini labs
to scan 35mm slides correctly. I have a lot of money invested in MF and am
thinking about a few more purchases. Yet, if I can not get the 120 film in a
few years it will be a waste to buy more lenses or another camera (been
thinking about a Fuji GA645) . Looks like Kodak has stopped all research on
developing new film. Where is Fuji at ? I have heard many times that there
will always be film made, but I am wondering at what price ? If the demand
goes down these companies must make a profit. Bronica just stopped making
most of their MF cameras. Does anyone know what the "official" or public
statements that film companies have make on there continued support of 120
(or 220) film. Will Agfa photo (just spun off from the main company in a
management buyout) continue to make 120 film ? Sorry for the long post, but
I still want to be shooting film ten years from now. Any feedback would be
appreciated . Matt


Sorry all, if my updated newsreader (Thunderbird 2.0.0.19) had displayed
the dates correctly (a reboot sorted that) I would not have bothered
replying. But it does seem to have started a bit of a discussion.

Rob.

Andrew Price wrote:
On Sat, 4 Apr 2009 18:52:20 +0000 (UTC), "Geoffrey S. Mendelson"

As cosmic radiation will affect film wherever it's kept, and if it's
only colour shifting which is slowed by freezing, does that mean there
is no point in keeping b/w film in the freezer at all? (serious
question, I need the space in my freezer!)

There is some fogging from age, but I have never heard of it being much,
as in 10 to 20 year old black and white film still being usable. There is
also some deterioration in speed, but depending upon how you process your
film, it may not be a problem.

What I can't even speculate on to answer you question is how hot does your
storage area get? If you have a root cellar or a cool basement, where it never
goes above 70f, it will last a lot longer than in an attic where it can go
over 100F in many places.

As a guess, I would say that if you plan to use it in the next 5 years,
and it does not get extremely hot, don't bother to refrigerate it.
5 to 10 years keep in the refrigerator and more than 10 years in the freezer.

This is assuming some loss in speed,and contrast due to fogging is not
critical. So if you are keeping it for astrophotgraphy, the freezer is it,
while if it's just non critical snaps, don't bother.

Geoff.


--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel N3OWJ/4X1GM

"Andrew Price" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 4 Apr 2009 18:52:20 +0000 (UTC), "Geoffrey S.
Mendelson"
wrote:

It depends upon the film. Color film will deteriorate due
to aging and
have a color shift. Being kept in the freezer will slow
this down the most,
a refrigerator not as much. If you don't care about subtle
color shifts,
even film kept at room temperature will be good for 5-10
years.

As cosmic radiation will affect film wherever it's kept,
and if it's
only colour shifting which is slowed by freezing, does
that mean there
is no point in keeping b/w film in the freezer at all?
(serious
question, I need the space in my freezer!)
Most fogging is caused by a continuation of the
"ripening" process that the emulsion undergoes during
manufacture. While chemicals are added to stop this process
before the emulsion is coated it never completely stops. One
result is the generation of "fog" crystals, that is, halide
crystals that are developable even though not exposed.
Usually, fogging increases more rapidly with fast emulsions
than slow ones but is also affected by many other factors.
Because it is mostly a chemical process fogging is
slowed substantially by storing sensitive materials at low
temperatures. Freezing works fine provided its done
correctly so that ice crystals do not form in the emulsion.
The color shift in color films is due to a slow
shifting of sensitivity and contrast of the component
emulsions. For good color they must exactly track. The
drifting of speed and contrast is due mostly to residual
chemical processes similar to the one above that causes
fogging. This affects all film but in color films a
relatively slight difference in one or more of the emulsion
components is much more obvious than in B&W.
Cosimic rays can cause some fogging over time but they
affect mostly the fastest emulsions (paper is hardly
affected at all) and is not particularly significant except
for very old materials.
There is another factor here which is different and
that is the stability of the latent image. After exposure
the charges which form the image can leak off with time. A
great deal of research has gone into making the latent image
more stable and it its quite stable in films manufactured in
the last fifty or more years. Again, this affects color more
than B&W beause the differential among the emulsion layers
is important where its non-existent in B&W. Loss of the
latent image is due to a great many factors, most of which
have to do with the way the film was manufactured. However,
like fogging, low temperatures and freedom from oxidation
tend to reduce it. Images have been recovered from some very
old film by using special techniques. Its difficult to be
specific about latent image life because there are so many
variables but most B&W films should still be developable
after perhaps ten years with, perhaps, some reduction in
image quality.
--
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA

On Sat, 04 Apr 2009 18:55:58 +0100, Rob B
wrote:

snip


There are other manufacturer's of film suck as Ilford who are currently
releasing their latest emulsions in 120 format. Of late Fuji relented to
pressure and reintroduced the famous Velvia 50, so film is not dead just
yet. As for the 220 format that may soon disappear ( a couple of years
or so) as it is becoming more and more difficult to source.


Well, at least I won't be bothered too much any more, then, that my
Pentax 67 has a broken 120/220 switch and is stuck in 120 mode.

On Sun, 5 Apr 2009 14:58:52 -0700, "Richard Knoppow"
wrote:

[---]

Because it is mostly a chemical process fogging is
slowed substantially by storing sensitive materials at low
temperatures. Freezing works fine provided its done
correctly so that ice crystals do not form in the emulsion.

Many thanks to Richard and Geoffrey for the comprehensive answers to
my question.

On 2009-04-06 00:07:48 -0400, rwalker said:

On Sat, 04 Apr 2009 18:55:58 +0100, Rob B
wrote:

snip


There are other manufacturer's of film suck as Ilford who are currently
releasing their latest emulsions in 120 format. Of late Fuji relented to
pressure and reintroduced the famous Velvia 50, so film is not dead just
yet. As for the 220 format that may soon disappear ( a couple of years
or so) as it is becoming more and more difficult to source.


Well, at least I won't be bothered too much any more, then, that my
Pentax 67 has a broken 120/220 switch and is stuck in 120 mode.

I have just thawed out my last 220 Velvia 50 for the Pentax 6x7
--
Michael

"Toni Nikkanen" wrote in message
...

I still have the luxury of being able to buy 120 film (bw negative,
color negative, slide) locally but I'm already used to ordering
online. Ordering large heaps of film online for cheap prices is a
perfectly good practice which is nothing to be afraid of, if it comes
to that


I've had fairly good luck ordering film online. There was the time Adorama
held up my film delivery for three weeks because another item on the order
was out-of-stock. Irritating.

SW