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Leaf Shutter questions for project camera
Greetings RPEM-F,
I have been exploring an idea of a low cost (relatively) wide view camera, using a PC-Nikkor Shift lens. I currently have a 35 mm f2.8 version of this lens that I have been testing for coverage. A couple things got me started on this, one was an adapter for an Xpan, and the other was the thread about the 38 mm Biogon lens. I have posted a couple drawings (not to scale) at: http://www.allgstudio.com/support_files/PC-Nikkor_coverage.jpg Estimated coverage comparison. http://www.allgstudio.com/support_files/PC-Nikkor_mount.jpg Lens to body comparison. Today I had some time to do a few more informal tests. It appears that when checked through a ground glass, the PC-Nikkor 35 mm f2.8 will almost completely cover 56 mm by 82 mm. The corners just show some darkness, unless I stop down to f11 or smaller. I think I would probably mask down the image to 56 mm by 70 mm, or perhaps 44 mm by 80 mm, just to avoid the corner darkness. Anyway, that is the background so far. As shown in the second drawing, there is not much width for a shutter. I am not opposed to trimming the body a bit, which would allow for a larger shutter. So far, I have checked specs and drawings I found (some at SKGrimes.com), and it seems that an ILEX #3 would work. I am wondering if there is something wrong with ILEX shutters, since they seem to sell at somewhat low prices. I also see many of the Polaroid Macro camera shutters, which seem like they might be another choice. The rearmost element on the PC-Nikkor 35 mm f2.8 is 22 mm diameter. What other leaf shutters would fit (Alphax, Rapax, Acme, et al)? Better choices? Things to watch out? Any comments or suggestions greatly appreciated. Thanks! Ciao! Gordon Moat A G Studio http://www.allgstudio.com/gallery.html Updated! |
#2
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interesting post, Gordon! 56x82mm (6x9cm)! Wow! That's better than I would have expected from a 35mm shift lens, alright! Since I have one of these 35mm PC nikkors, I am going to be interested in your experiences here ;-) Please keep us posted of progress and problems ;-) Ilex shutters, from my shutter notes pages at http://medfmt.8k.com/mf/shutters.html quoting the highly regarded Richard Knoppow My experience with Ilex shutters is that they are practically bulletproof although not always very accurate. Steve Grimes thinks the very early ones, with the small speed setting dial at the top, are dogs and should be avoided. Later rim set types can all be brought back to life. end-quote and a later posting cautions: I responded once recommending Steve Grimes but maybe wasn't clear. Its not an easy swap. For one thing there was no such thing as standardized shutter threads when this lens was made. Each make had its own set of dimentions and threads. In fact, the Ilex shutters used by Kodak had special threads different from Ilex's standard line. endquote later, Bob Fowler cautions polaroid shutters: BEWARE! There are some Polaroid shutters that aren't quite what they seem on the surface! Many of the Copal Polaroid shutters for the MP-4 do not have an iris diaphram. Some, like the 75mm Tominon, are in the shell of a size 1 shutter, but the max iris opening is limited to something like 17mm - smaller than a standard size 0. Be careful when buying the Copal Polaroid stuff sight unseen. They're GREAT shutters, but purpose built and may not be exactly what the doctor ordered. AFAIK, the MP-3 Polaroid stuff (Prontor Polaroid) is all standard sized gear. A lot of it's out there, and a lot of it needs servicing - catch my drift? endquote: another "cheap big shutter secret option" is the 'scope cameras, I looked at these for the 75mm f/1.9 lenses, but these are setup for macro work at extension, and don't cover MF well let alone LF 4x5" but you do get a large LF shutter very cheaply! quoting again same URL: Last week another oscilloscope camera arrived in my mail, a Tektronix Model 12. This had another Ilex #3 and an (essentially useless) 75 mm "Oscillo-Raptar" lens. These Ilex shutters are really reliable mechanisms, the most I've ever had to do on one is lube the escapement - 30 minute job. The 75mm lens was mounted in a pair of 3/8" wall, 3" diameter aluminum tubing sections; one end already 1.75 x 52tpi to mate with the shutter. Tektonix evidently uses first rate material for these lens mounts; this stuff was lovely to machine. I used the Raptar lens mount to fabricate an adaptor for a 480 mm f9 Ronar (I'm partial to German optics, my Ronars all seem to have either 0.75 mm or 1.0 mm pitch threads on the mounting thread. I cut the threads on a SothBend 10 K usimg metric transposing gears). The 1.4" diameter (appx) maximum shutter opening calculates to be a maximum effective lens opening of f13.5. Graphics arts lenses, like my Ronar collection work best at f16+ ( I use f22) for distant objects. I use this lens/shutter on a Calumet 45 NX, which has a 21" maximum bellows extension. The lens mount acts like a short extension tube and I'm able to focus to slightly less than 12 feet. No problem focussing outdoors at my f13.5 wide open setting. Rear shutter mounts have proven quite practical for me; the modest cost of oscillioscope camera shutters makes the whole thing work. This particular shutter set me back $7 - NASA surplus, your tax dollars at work, I'm afraid. end-quote: again, I don't know if this would allow a close enough mounting due to shutter thickness, but 1.4" of opening will presumably handle 22mm element? ;-) So might be worth checking out? pseudo xpan if you want to consider an xpan style camera, the Nimslo 3D camera (was $225 for metal body stereo camera) is often cheap used ($20-ish+) and provides an metal (flat) film channel 24x72mm long (vs. 64.5mm for xpan, so longer and wider with same lens etc.) see sample 24x72mm photos at http://www.rit.edu/~andpph/photofile-c/nimslo-1.jpg by Andrew Davidhazy of RIT fame on http://www.rit.edu/~andpph/text-nimslo.html This URL jpeg shows a nimslo 3d modified to take a leaf shutter mounted lens http://www.rit.edu/~andpph/photofile-b/nimslo-12.jpg - no focal plane shutter, unfortunately, but the camera body is relatively thin as a result. There was a cheaper plastic 3d camera later version, easier to cut/work? nimslo wide lens tip- Thanks! Thanks for solving one of my Nimslo 3d vs. Xpan problems with your lens test report on the 35mm PC; a 90mm angulon can reportedly cover up to 6x18cm (not a typo, see Roger Hicks dual ensign 620 "Longfellow" camera in Brit. Jrnl of Photogr. (or his MF & LF Handbook, IIRC). This is a rather modest cost wide angle lens (best stopped well down obviously) on 4x5", so overkill on Nimslo 3d (still wider 72mm vs 64.5mm on xpan, so wider image coverage and 6x7cm enlarger needed etc.). And you can find lots of 75mm TLR lenses that will also cover the Nimslo 72mm channel stopped down, with a leaf shutter, making a wide-ish xpan clone at very low cost possible ($20 for nimslo, taking lens from TLR with shutter, epoxy ;-). But what to do about the wide angle lens? A 30mm with center filter on the xpan has been impossible to match cheaply - until now!!! ;-) Thanks to your note, it appears that the nikkor 35mm PC shift lens may cover the nimslo 3d rather well - if a shutter can be grafted for it. Now if we could just get some similar "test" results on ground glass coverage of some of the full frame fisheye nikkors, and esp. the russian nikkor mount offerings (peleng 17mm, zenitar 16mm etc.)? This might offer some other interesting ultrawide opportunities for medium format and panoramic users? Hasselblad Hyper-wide 17mm? ;-) And yes, I am still looking locally for those 17mm ultrawide cheapy disposable truely panoramic cameras so I can salvage the lens and see how much it covers, and how well? ;-) Now that would be a fun lens to try on MF, even if a circular fisheye on 6x6cm, it has its own shutter already ;-) just build a shim with rubber bands to hold it onto a hassy 12 back (with easy to advance peephole back) and you have a really different "hasselblad" hyper-wide 17mm ;-) grins bobm -- ************************************************** ********************* * Robert Monaghan POB 752182 Southern Methodist Univ. Dallas Tx 75275 * ********************Standard Disclaimers Apply************************* |
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interesting post, Gordon! 56x82mm (6x9cm)! Wow! That's better than I would have expected from a 35mm shift lens, alright! Since I have one of these 35mm PC nikkors, I am going to be interested in your experiences here ;-) Please keep us posted of progress and problems ;-) Ilex shutters, from my shutter notes pages at http://medfmt.8k.com/mf/shutters.html quoting the highly regarded Richard Knoppow My experience with Ilex shutters is that they are practically bulletproof although not always very accurate. Steve Grimes thinks the very early ones, with the small speed setting dial at the top, are dogs and should be avoided. Later rim set types can all be brought back to life. end-quote and a later posting cautions: I responded once recommending Steve Grimes but maybe wasn't clear. Its not an easy swap. For one thing there was no such thing as standardized shutter threads when this lens was made. Each make had its own set of dimentions and threads. In fact, the Ilex shutters used by Kodak had special threads different from Ilex's standard line. endquote later, Bob Fowler cautions polaroid shutters: BEWARE! There are some Polaroid shutters that aren't quite what they seem on the surface! Many of the Copal Polaroid shutters for the MP-4 do not have an iris diaphram. Some, like the 75mm Tominon, are in the shell of a size 1 shutter, but the max iris opening is limited to something like 17mm - smaller than a standard size 0. Be careful when buying the Copal Polaroid stuff sight unseen. They're GREAT shutters, but purpose built and may not be exactly what the doctor ordered. AFAIK, the MP-3 Polaroid stuff (Prontor Polaroid) is all standard sized gear. A lot of it's out there, and a lot of it needs servicing - catch my drift? endquote: another "cheap big shutter secret option" is the 'scope cameras, I looked at these for the 75mm f/1.9 lenses, but these are setup for macro work at extension, and don't cover MF well let alone LF 4x5" but you do get a large LF shutter very cheaply! quoting again same URL: Last week another oscilloscope camera arrived in my mail, a Tektronix Model 12. This had another Ilex #3 and an (essentially useless) 75 mm "Oscillo-Raptar" lens. These Ilex shutters are really reliable mechanisms, the most I've ever had to do on one is lube the escapement - 30 minute job. The 75mm lens was mounted in a pair of 3/8" wall, 3" diameter aluminum tubing sections; one end already 1.75 x 52tpi to mate with the shutter. Tektonix evidently uses first rate material for these lens mounts; this stuff was lovely to machine. I used the Raptar lens mount to fabricate an adaptor for a 480 mm f9 Ronar (I'm partial to German optics, my Ronars all seem to have either 0.75 mm or 1.0 mm pitch threads on the mounting thread. I cut the threads on a SothBend 10 K usimg metric transposing gears). The 1.4" diameter (appx) maximum shutter opening calculates to be a maximum effective lens opening of f13.5. Graphics arts lenses, like my Ronar collection work best at f16+ ( I use f22) for distant objects. I use this lens/shutter on a Calumet 45 NX, which has a 21" maximum bellows extension. The lens mount acts like a short extension tube and I'm able to focus to slightly less than 12 feet. No problem focussing outdoors at my f13.5 wide open setting. Rear shutter mounts have proven quite practical for me; the modest cost of oscillioscope camera shutters makes the whole thing work. This particular shutter set me back $7 - NASA surplus, your tax dollars at work, I'm afraid. end-quote: again, I don't know if this would allow a close enough mounting due to shutter thickness, but 1.4" of opening will presumably handle 22mm element? ;-) So might be worth checking out? pseudo xpan if you want to consider an xpan style camera, the Nimslo 3D camera (was $225 for metal body stereo camera) is often cheap used ($20-ish+) and provides an metal (flat) film channel 24x72mm long (vs. 64.5mm for xpan, so longer and wider with same lens etc.) see sample 24x72mm photos at http://www.rit.edu/~andpph/photofile-c/nimslo-1.jpg by Andrew Davidhazy of RIT fame on http://www.rit.edu/~andpph/text-nimslo.html This URL jpeg shows a nimslo 3d modified to take a leaf shutter mounted lens http://www.rit.edu/~andpph/photofile-b/nimslo-12.jpg - no focal plane shutter, unfortunately, but the camera body is relatively thin as a result. There was a cheaper plastic 3d camera later version, easier to cut/work? nimslo wide lens tip- Thanks! Thanks for solving one of my Nimslo 3d vs. Xpan problems with your lens test report on the 35mm PC; a 90mm angulon can reportedly cover up to 6x18cm (not a typo, see Roger Hicks dual ensign 620 "Longfellow" camera in Brit. Jrnl of Photogr. (or his MF & LF Handbook, IIRC). This is a rather modest cost wide angle lens (best stopped well down obviously) on 4x5", so overkill on Nimslo 3d (still wider 72mm vs 64.5mm on xpan, so wider image coverage and 6x7cm enlarger needed etc.). And you can find lots of 75mm TLR lenses that will also cover the Nimslo 72mm channel stopped down, with a leaf shutter, making a wide-ish xpan clone at very low cost possible ($20 for nimslo, taking lens from TLR with shutter, epoxy ;-). But what to do about the wide angle lens? A 30mm with center filter on the xpan has been impossible to match cheaply - until now!!! ;-) Thanks to your note, it appears that the nikkor 35mm PC shift lens may cover the nimslo 3d rather well - if a shutter can be grafted for it. Now if we could just get some similar "test" results on ground glass coverage of some of the full frame fisheye nikkors, and esp. the russian nikkor mount offerings (peleng 17mm, zenitar 16mm etc.)? This might offer some other interesting ultrawide opportunities for medium format and panoramic users? Hasselblad Hyper-wide 17mm? ;-) And yes, I am still looking locally for those 17mm ultrawide cheapy disposable truely panoramic cameras so I can salvage the lens and see how much it covers, and how well? ;-) Now that would be a fun lens to try on MF, even if a circular fisheye on 6x6cm, it has its own shutter already ;-) just build a shim with rubber bands to hold it onto a hassy 12 back (with easy to advance peephole back) and you have a really different "hasselblad" hyper-wide 17mm ;-) grins bobm -- ************************************************** ********************* * Robert Monaghan POB 752182 Southern Methodist Univ. Dallas Tx 75275 * ********************Standard Disclaimers Apply************************* |
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"Bob Monaghan" wrote: Hasselblad Hyper-wide 17mm? ;-) And yes, I am still looking locally for those 17mm ultrawide cheapy disposable truely panoramic cameras so I can salvage the lens and see how much it covers, and how well? ;-) Now that would be a fun lens to try on MF, even if a circular fisheye on 6x6cm, it has its own shutter already ;-) just build a shim with rubber bands to hold it onto a hassy 12 back (with easy to advance peephole back) and you have a really different "hasselblad" hyper-wide 17mm ;-) http://www.pbase.com/davidjl/image/33533884/large While you guys are talking, some of us are out taking pictures: stitching two frames together isn't all that much of a pain. David J. Littleboy Tokyo, Japan |
#5
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"Bob Monaghan" wrote: Hasselblad Hyper-wide 17mm? ;-) And yes, I am still looking locally for those 17mm ultrawide cheapy disposable truely panoramic cameras so I can salvage the lens and see how much it covers, and how well? ;-) Now that would be a fun lens to try on MF, even if a circular fisheye on 6x6cm, it has its own shutter already ;-) just build a shim with rubber bands to hold it onto a hassy 12 back (with easy to advance peephole back) and you have a really different "hasselblad" hyper-wide 17mm ;-) http://www.pbase.com/davidjl/image/33533884/large While you guys are talking, some of us are out taking pictures: stitching two frames together isn't all that much of a pain. David J. Littleboy Tokyo, Japan |
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David J. Littleboy wrote:
http://www.pbase.com/davidjl/image/33533884/large Speaking of which, how good is the 35 mm Sekor in general? How are sharpness and distortion? I'm more than a little tempted but then again I've been spoiled by the linearity of my 21 mm Contarex Biogon. Ralf -- Ralf R. Radermacher - DL9KCG - Köln/Cologne, Germany private homepage: http://www.fotoralf.de manual cameras and photo galleries - updated April 29, 2004 Contarex - Kiev 60 - Horizon 202 - P6 mount lenses |
#7
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David J. Littleboy wrote:
http://www.pbase.com/davidjl/image/33533884/large Speaking of which, how good is the 35 mm Sekor in general? How are sharpness and distortion? I'm more than a little tempted but then again I've been spoiled by the linearity of my 21 mm Contarex Biogon. Ralf -- Ralf R. Radermacher - DL9KCG - Köln/Cologne, Germany private homepage: http://www.fotoralf.de manual cameras and photo galleries - updated April 29, 2004 Contarex - Kiev 60 - Horizon 202 - P6 mount lenses |
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Hi David, nice photo, that mamiya 35mm is a nifty lens, and surprisingly cheap too! not all of us (ahem) are as talented or have the skills and scanners to do this kind of work though ;-) and besides the issue of shots in which there is motion (cityscapes etc.) there is also the problem that I still like slides for many reasons ;-) besides, it is a lot of fun to "hack" around with cameras and lenses. I'm doing digital, but it is digital video ;-) - I did several short video programs for our club group this last week, duping to my TV/VCR at home last night. One was on a high altitude ham radio balloon launch last weekend here (13 min.) ;-) Lots of fun. But lots different from MF too ;-) regards bobm -- ************************************************** ********************* * Robert Monaghan POB 752182 Southern Methodist Univ. Dallas Tx 75275 * ********************Standard Disclaimers Apply************************* |
#9
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Hi David, nice photo, that mamiya 35mm is a nifty lens, and surprisingly cheap too! not all of us (ahem) are as talented or have the skills and scanners to do this kind of work though ;-) and besides the issue of shots in which there is motion (cityscapes etc.) there is also the problem that I still like slides for many reasons ;-) besides, it is a lot of fun to "hack" around with cameras and lenses. I'm doing digital, but it is digital video ;-) - I did several short video programs for our club group this last week, duping to my TV/VCR at home last night. One was on a high altitude ham radio balloon launch last weekend here (13 min.) ;-) Lots of fun. But lots different from MF too ;-) regards bobm -- ************************************************** ********************* * Robert Monaghan POB 752182 Southern Methodist Univ. Dallas Tx 75275 * ********************Standard Disclaimers Apply************************* |
#10
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"Ralf R. Radermacher" wrote in message ... David J. Littleboy wrote: http://www.pbase.com/davidjl/image/33533884/large Speaking of which, how good is the 35 mm Sekor in general? It's pretty much on my camera all the time. How are sharpness Speaking of Tech Pan: http://www.terrapinphoto.com/jmdavis/ugly-c2.jpg and distortion? http://www.pbase.com/davidjl/image/22566107/large David J. Littleboy Tokyo, Japan |
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