Help with Kodak Hawkeye film

I have 300' of Kodak Hawkeye Surveillance film
(B&W) and the first roll is still in the camera.

I was checking development times with some small
pieces and was upset to see the emulsion reticulate
and finally fall off the film in lumps.

My initial reaction was to blame the tap water wash
before and after the fixer, but I suspect it is
something other than that as other films don't do it
even though the local water supply is down to 18%
capacity and is doubtless full of various salts.

I cobbled up some hardener and used that pre and post
developer but the emulsion is still reticulated on
drying, (but stays on the film base). The hardeners
were alum and/or formalin based.

I am wondering if anyone has worked with this film
succesfully and could tell me the developer fixer
combinations that were best? Experimenting with films is
all very well, but I want to have some pictures to
show afterwards.

All help appreciated.
Murray
Brisbane

Murray wrote:

I was checking development times with some small
pieces and was upset to see the emulsion reticulate
and finally fall off the film in lumps.

What's your wash temperature? If it is warmer than the development
temp, you will get reticulation.

Don't sweat the water table (at list for your film). Salt water
does a better job of washing film than fresh water.

Geoff.

--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel N3OWJ/4X1GM
IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838
Visit my 'blog at http://geoffstechno.livejournal.com/

Geoffrey S. Mendelson spake thus:

Murray wrote:

I was checking development times with some small
pieces and was upset to see the emulsion reticulate
and finally fall off the film in lumps.

What's your wash temperature? If it is warmer than the development
temp, you will get reticulation.

I can confirm that. Where reticulation is concerned, the culprit is
*any* appreciable difference in temperature between baths. Keep it as
consistent as possible. (And not too hot helps too ...)


--
Any system of knowledge that is capable of listing films in order
of use of the word "****" is incapable of writing a good summary
and analysis of the Philippine-American War. And vice-versa.
This is an inviolable rule.

- Matthew White, referring to Wikipedia on his WikiWatch site
(http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/wikiwoo.htm)

"Murray" wrote in message
...
I have 300' of Kodak Hawkeye Surveillance film
(B&W) and the first roll is still in the camera.

I was checking development times with some small
pieces and was upset to see the emulsion reticulate
and finally fall off the film in lumps.

My initial reaction was to blame the tap water wash
before and after the fixer, but I suspect it is
something other than that as other films don't do it
even though the local water supply is down to 18%
capacity and is doubtless full of various salts.

I cobbled up some hardener and used that pre and post
developer but the emulsion is still reticulated on
drying, (but stays on the film base). The hardeners
were alum and/or formalin based.

I am wondering if anyone has worked with this film
succesfully and could tell me the developer fixer
combinations that were best? Experimenting with films is
all very well, but I want to have some pictures to
show afterwards.

All help appreciated.
Murray
Brisbane

Have you any idea of the age of the film or its type
number?
I strongly suspect the film has been subjected to
something unusual in its storage because modern films have
very hard emulsions and are well bound to the support. Most
motion picture type films are designed for automatic
processing machines using temperatures up to 100F.
Salts in the water tend to _reduce_ emulsion swelling
so I don't think those are the problem. If the emulsion has
was _not_ hardened for some reason you may have to process
at a quite low temperature, around 65F, but, unless this
film is very unusual I can't imagine its not being factory
hardened.
Also, you did not say what sort of process you are
using. I would avoid highly alkaline developers like Rodinal
but any standard B&W developer should work OK, most modern
developers have reasonable pH. An acid stop bath has several
advantages one of which is to reverse swelling in the
developer.
At any rate without more details one can only guess at
what is happening.


--
---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA

OK - I think I have an answer.

The tap water is cool enough now - our winter.
It comes out at about 18 C. The baths were from the
cupboard at 20C.

The emulsion was lifting off in the developer now that
I think about it more closely. Wash temperature is out
of the equation.

After dinner and a glass of think juice (armagnac)
and a cigar to settle the angst, I got to thinking
about the developer. I had, after all, only been
trying sodium bisulphate as a stop and or a hypo
eliminator, and only used the developer to be
consistent with a typical 'session'.

The developer was a 2-bath suggestion from APUG
that contained salt (NaCl) phenidone and VitC and
appealed to my sense of the unusual.

That was a dismal failure but I kept it in the fridge
as there was phenidone and vitC that could be useful
for an experiment. I added the carbonate to activate
it as a single bath and after a lot of fizzing it worked
fine - except the emulsion fell off.

The lamp lit above me as I thought to myself that the salt
might be acting by osmosis on the gelatine, so before
retiring for the night did a quick check with Diafine
and the emulsion is no longer 'tender' to the touch.
It isn't reticulated and looks like it would scan
or print as normal used any other way. I still believe
a hardener would be in order with this film somewhere in the
process but not, obviously, as a pre-hardener with
a 2-bath.

Thanks for all the thoughts. I located some calgon
today and will go down that path with the wash water
experiments, too. The sodium bisufate might indeed
be a very good (too good?) stop bath or hypo eliminator.
I only mention that because that's what is sold here (Australia)
to lower pool pH, not sulphite, as in the US. Much more
acid. More so than bisulphite even. That, and I bought
some, so I have to find a use for it :-). That is what
started the whole experiment off and revealed the emulsion
vulnerability to salt. (I think.)

I still have to finish the film in the camera, altho
with 300' available the 15 frames I took today hardly make a dent
in the supply, but I do have an economical streak, don't I? :-)

Another one for the learning curve.

Thanks to all.


Murray
Brisbane

Murray wrote:
OK - I think I have an answer.

The tap water is cool enough now - our winter.
It comes out at about 18 C. The baths were from the
cupboard at 20C.

The emulsion was lifting off in the developer now that
I think about it more closely. Wash temperature is out
of the equation.

After dinner and a glass of think juice (armagnac)
and a cigar to settle the angst, I got to thinking
about the developer. I had, after all, only been
trying sodium bisulphate as a stop and or a hypo
eliminator, and only used the developer to be
consistent with a typical 'session'.

My gawd! Sodium bisulphate is the main ingredient in toilet-bowl cleaner. It
results in an extremely acid solution. If you are averse to acetic acid as
an ingredient of a stop bath, I suggest sodium bisulphite instead.

H2SO4 0.1N pH 1.2
H2SO3 0.1N pH 1.5

Now for their salts, I am surprised at the difficulty of finding them. I
could test some bisulphite with indicator paper, but I have no bisulphate.

--
.~. Jean-David Beyer Registered Linux User 85642.
/V\ PGP-Key: 9A2FC99A Registered Machine 241939.
/( )\ Shrewsbury, New Jersey http://counter.li.org
^^-^^ 06:15:01 up 5 days, 12:32, 1 user, load average: 4.10, 4.23, 4.19

Yes, I was surprised myself when I did a google on
these two and found that the bisulphate was passed
by the FDA for a food additive. An acidifier, IIRC.

In the referrences I saw bisulphite wasn't that low
but bisulphate certainly was. OTOH one doesn't have
to use molar concentration. Less would stop a film
real dead, quick. QED. Bisulphate isn't called 'dry
acid' for no reason I guess.

If after fixing it would help hypo elimination,
well so much the better. Like I said, I was only
playing to see results. If I could use it instead
of (say) acetic acid I'd be ahead because I haven't
found an easy supply of that, yet.

So, again your inputs were to the point but we were all
missing the important clue. I didn't associate the salt
until later and none of us would therefore suspect it
as a culprit. All in the name of photo science :-)

Cheers.
Murray
Brisbane

Jean-David Beyer wrote:

Murray wrote:

OK - I think I have an answer.

The tap water is cool enough now - our winter.
It comes out at about 18 C. The baths were from the
cupboard at 20C.

The emulsion was lifting off in the developer now that
I think about it more closely. Wash temperature is out
of the equation.

After dinner and a glass of think juice (armagnac)
and a cigar to settle the angst, I got to thinking
about the developer. I had, after all, only been
trying sodium bisulphate as a stop and or a hypo
eliminator, and only used the developer to be
consistent with a typical 'session'.


My gawd! Sodium bisulphate is the main ingredient in toilet-bowl cleaner. It
results in an extremely acid solution. If you are averse to acetic acid as
an ingredient of a stop bath, I suggest sodium bisulphite instead.

H2SO4 0.1N pH 1.2
H2SO3 0.1N pH 1.5

Now for their salts, I am surprised at the difficulty of finding them. I
could test some bisulphite with indicator paper, but I have no bisulphate.

Yes, I was surprised myself when I did a google on
these two and found that the bisulphate was passed
by the FDA for a food additive. An acidifier, IIRC.

In the referrences I saw bisulphite wasn't that low
but bisulphate certainly was. OTOH one doesn't have
to use molar concentration. Less would stop a film
real dead, quick. QED. Bisulphate isn't called 'dry
acid' for no reason I guess.

If after fixing it would help hypo elimination,
well so much the better. Like I said, I was only
playing to see results. If I could use it instead
of (say) acetic acid I'd be ahead because I haven't
found an easy supply of that, yet.

So, again your inputs were to the point but we were all
missing the important clue. I didn't associate the salt
until later and none of us would therefore suspect it
as a culprit. All in the name of photo science :-)

Cheers.
Murray
Brisbane

Jean-David Beyer wrote:

Murray wrote:

OK - I think I have an answer.

The tap water is cool enough now - our winter.
It comes out at about 18 C. The baths were from the
cupboard at 20C.

The emulsion was lifting off in the developer now that
I think about it more closely. Wash temperature is out
of the equation.

After dinner and a glass of think juice (armagnac)
and a cigar to settle the angst, I got to thinking
about the developer. I had, after all, only been
trying sodium bisulphate as a stop and or a hypo
eliminator, and only used the developer to be
consistent with a typical 'session'.


My gawd! Sodium bisulphate is the main ingredient in toilet-bowl
cleaner. It
results in an extremely acid solution. If you are averse to acetic
acid as
an ingredient of a stop bath, I suggest sodium bisulphite instead.

H2SO4 0.1N pH 1.2
H2SO3 0.1N pH 1.5

Now for their salts, I am surprised at the difficulty of finding them. I
could test some bisulphite with indicator paper, but I have no
bisulphate.


Jean-David Beyer wrote:

Murray wrote:

OK - I think I have an answer.

The tap water is cool enough now - our winter.
It comes out at about 18 C. The baths were from the
cupboard at 20C.

The emulsion was lifting off in the developer now that
I think about it more closely. Wash temperature is out
of the equation.

After dinner and a glass of think juice (armagnac)
and a cigar to settle the angst, I got to thinking
about the developer. I had, after all, only been
trying sodium bisulphate as a stop and or a hypo
eliminator, and only used the developer to be
consistent with a typical 'session'.


My gawd! Sodium bisulphate is the main ingredient in toilet-bowl cleaner. It
results in an extremely acid solution. If you are averse to acetic acid as
an ingredient of a stop bath, I suggest sodium bisulphite instead.

H2SO4 0.1N pH 1.2
H2SO3 0.1N pH 1.5

Now for their salts, I am surprised at the difficulty of finding them. I
could test some bisulphite with indicator paper, but I have no bisulphate.

"Murray" wrote in message
...
OK - I think I have an answer.

The tap water is cool enough now - our winter.
It comes out at about 18 C. The baths were from the
cupboard at 20C.

The emulsion was lifting off in the developer now that
I think about it more closely. Wash temperature is out
of the equation.

After dinner and a glass of think juice (armagnac)
and a cigar to settle the angst, I got to thinking
about the developer. I had, after all, only been
trying sodium bisulphate as a stop and or a hypo
eliminator, and only used the developer to be
consistent with a typical 'session'.

The developer was a 2-bath suggestion from APUG
that contained salt (NaCl) phenidone and VitC and
appealed to my sense of the unusual.

That was a dismal failure but I kept it in the fridge
as there was phenidone and vitC that could be useful
for an experiment. I added the carbonate to activate
it as a single bath and after a lot of fizzing it worked
fine - except the emulsion fell off.

The lamp lit above me as I thought to myself that the salt
might be acting by osmosis on the gelatine, so before
retiring for the night did a quick check with Diafine
and the emulsion is no longer 'tender' to the touch.
It isn't reticulated and looks like it would scan
or print as normal used any other way. I still believe
a hardener would be in order with this film somewhere in
the
process but not, obviously, as a pre-hardener with
a 2-bath.

Thanks for all the thoughts. I located some calgon
today and will go down that path with the wash water
experiments, too. The sodium bisufate might indeed
be a very good (too good?) stop bath or hypo eliminator.
I only mention that because that's what is sold here
(Australia)
to lower pool pH, not sulphite, as in the US. Much more
acid. More so than bisulphite even. That, and I bought
some, so I have to find a use for it :-). That is what
started the whole experiment off and revealed the emulsion
vulnerability to salt. (I think.)

I still have to finish the film in the camera, altho
with 300' available the 15 frames I took today hardly make
a dent
in the supply, but I do have an economical streak, don't
I? :-)

Another one for the learning curve.

Thanks to all.


Murray
Brisbane

Sodium bisul_fate_ is a pretty strong acid. I think you
should stick with normal stop baths, typically about 2%
Acetic acid. Sodium Bisul_fite_ makes a reasonable stop bath
if you are sensitive to the odor of Acetic acid.
Everyone wants to try something exotic but the reason
most of the exotic is so is because it doesn't work. Stick
with conventional developer, stop bath and a hardening
fixing bath.
Neither Sodium Bisulfate or Bisulfite is an effective
wash aid. The best is about a 2% solution of Sodium Sulfite.
Kodak Hypo Clearing Agent is Sodium sulfite buffered to
neutral with Sodium bisulfite and the addition of two
sequestering agents, EDTA Tetra-sodium salt, and Sodium
Citrate. These are present to prevent the deposition of
mineral salts in the water and sludging from alum in
hardening fixer which can react with the sulfite to produce
a hard to remove deposit.
The advantage of buffering is that it results in neutral
pH which minimises emulsion swelling and also retains the
hardening action of Alum hardeners although it eliminates
the binding action of alum for thiosulfate. An alkali bath
will destroy the hardening and swell the emulsion.
Most modern developers, for instance D-76, T-Max (both
versions), HC-110, Ilford Microphen, etc., have relatively
low pH and will not damage emulsions. If you want a very low
pH developer use D-23.
Sodium Sulfate is used for drain cleaner and AFAIK has
no application in photography.


--
---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA