Canon Digital Rebel XT, RAW files, and Photoshop

Jeremy Nixon wrote:

Alan Browne wrote:


(Mind you, I agree that it's a rather poor support decision not
to upgrade the plugin for a product as recent as Photoshop CS)

It's part of the evil plot to promote DNG.


My God, you're right! Instead of forcing us to pay for the CS2 upgrade,
they give us a free program we can use instead, thus furthering their evil
corporate goal of ... um... oh.

It's a sure bet for Adobe.

a) DNG is a corporate goal for Adobe.

b) CS owners will eventually upgrade to CS2 or whatever follows that
includes the RAW conversion.

Nothing is free.

Actually, it does a good job of pointing out that if the camera makers
would generate DNG in the first place, we wouldn't have to worry about
software updates like this at all.

Yes. See point a) above. Unfortunately, the OEM's have their own
corprate agendas which are to provide their own varieties of information
formats. Example: Nikon's Image Capture. So don't expect the OEM's to
give up too soon. Further, the OEM's are more likely to encrypt and
proprietize their data formats to a point where Adobe won't tread.
(recent encryption shenanigans with Nikon white balance data in the
D2X/H cameras refer
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0504/05...encryptnef.asp
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0504/05...ninterview.asp ).

Until there is agreement, the OEM RAW formats are as good as anyone
needs for archiving. Adobe's real strength is that in most cases
everyone agrees that they do a better job with OEM RAW than the OEM's
do. So Adobe not putting these recent camera RAW's into CS just shows
that they are not so goody-goody-two-shoes as their public DNG offering
suggests. A strange set of circumstances, but there it is.

I have nothing against DNG, I have the converter, but for the time being
I do not see any need or advantage to using it at all.

Cheers,
Alan


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McLeod wrote:

For all of Adobe's griping about Nikon changing their NEF files the
fact that the camera manufacturers are updating their raw files seems
to be giving people one of the main reasons they have to buy CS2 or
convert to DNG. Adobe's whining and crying at the start of the month
seems a little less sincere now.

Nikon's justification for encrypting white balance data in NEF files is
only to force the purchase of Nikon's Image Capture software. Nikon
have conveniently forgotten that the captured image belongs to the
photographer, not Nikon.

I agree that Adobe's not providing RAW conversion for the RebXT in CS is
nothing short of forcing an upgrade to CS2 or adoption of DNG. And for
those who don't upgrade CS now, it's a near certainty they will at a
later date.

As http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articl...gyLetterV.html astutely
points out, complementary marketing is the name of the game. And
commoditizing the complements is part of the strategy. PDF today. DNG
tomorrow.

Of course Adobe want DNG to be an open format for all to use as they
please. It creates a commodity that makes the entire Adobe suite of
image software that much stronger.

Adobe might gripe about Nikon. But its Nikon's customers who should be
doing the major griping against Nikon.

To date, Konica-Minolta (and as far as a I know Canon, Pentax, Olympus)
haven't hijacked the phtographers images, but that day may come.

In the wings, there are programs like dcraw that are open source and
publicaly available ... and the designer seems content to hack open
encrypted formats.

Cheers,
Alan.

--
-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
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-- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
-- e-meil: Remove FreeLunch.

On Fri, 20 May 2005 18:13:06 -0400, Alan Browne
wrote:

Nikon's justification for encrypting white balance data in NEF files is
only to force the purchase of Nikon's Image Capture software. Nikon
have conveniently forgotten that the captured image belongs to the
photographer, not Nikon.

Adobe did a very good job of labelling Nikon through the internet, the
fact that you believe this shows that. At the same time Nikon
released the D2x they released a software developer kit for any third
party interested in the NEF files.
Less than two weeks after Adobe released this whining press release to
anyone who was interested the new NEF was supported (but only by CS2,
of course, so you will have to upgrade).

On Fri, 20 May 2005 18:13:06 -0400, Alan Browne
wrote:

Adobe might gripe about Nikon. But its Nikon's customers who should be
doing the major griping against Nikon.

To date, Konica-Minolta (and as far as a I know Canon, Pentax, Olympus)
haven't hijacked the phtographers images, but that day may come.


Again, you should stay up to date. Adobe Camera Raw has full
functionality with Nikon D2x files as long as you update to CS2 and
install the newest raw plug-in.

Alan Browne wrote:
Jeremy Nixon wrote:
Alan Browne wrote:
[snip]
It's part of the evil plot to promote DNG.

My God, you're right! Instead of forcing us to pay for the CS2
upgrade,
they give us a free program we can use instead, thus furthering
their evil
corporate goal of ... um... oh.

It's a sure bet for Adobe.

a) DNG is a corporate goal for Adobe.

b) CS owners will eventually upgrade to CS2 or whatever follows
that
includes the RAW conversion.
[snip]

Anyone using the DNG route to process their 350D and D2X images under
CS / ACR 2.4 is not committed to DNG from then on. If they choose, they
can go back to the camera's Raw files when they upgrade to a version of
Photoshop and ACR that supports them. (That may be later than CS2, of
course).

When ACR 2.4 saves settings for DNG files in XMP sidecars, after the
Photoshop upgrade the photographer can simply replace the DNG files
with the original Raw files. The later version of ACR will then apply
those sidecars to the original CR2 or NEF files, as long as they have
the same name except for the extension. (I just tested this on 350D and
D2X, CR2 and NEF, files).

Photographers COULD just treat DNG as a temporary method of delaying or
avoiding the need to upgrade Photoshop for new camera support.

Of course DNG is a corporate goal for Adobe! It will open up the Raw
industry, and give photographers more confidence in Raw. That should
accelerate the growth in Raw shooting worldwide. And that will be good
for anyone in the Raw processing business or photo-editing business.
Especially, but not only, Adobe.

--
Barry Pearson
http://www.barry.pearson.name/photography/
http://www.birdsandanimals.info/

McLeod wrote:
On Fri, 20 May 2005 18:13:06 -0400, Alan Browne
wrote:

Nikon's justification for encrypting white balance data in NEF files
is
only to force the purchase of Nikon's Image Capture software. Nikon

have conveniently forgotten that the captured image belongs to the
photographer, not Nikon.

Correct. That is the only reason for such encryption.

Adobe did a very good job of labelling Nikon through the internet,
the
fact that you believe this shows that. At the same time Nikon
released the D2x they released a software developer kit for any third
party interested in the NEF files.

Has Adobe itself made a statement on this subject? I have seen a
straightforward factual explanation from Thomas Knoll. But I thought he
was not an Adobe employee. (I wonder if an urban legend is developing
about Adobe's part in the debate?)

I thought the SDK didn't give access to the sensor data? If so, it is
not suitable for alternative Raw processors. I don't think Adobe's
competitors take it any more seriously than Adobe do. (Actually, I
think Nikon won't supply it to individuals writing Raw-processing
software).

Less than two weeks after Adobe released this whining press release
to
anyone who was interested the new NEF was supported (but only by CS2,
of course, so you will have to upgrade).

No, you won't have to upgrade. You can convert the D2X NEFs into DNGs,
and process those in CS / ACR 2.4. If / when you do upgrade, you can
replace the DNGs with your NEFs, and the sidecars with your settings
made in CS / ACR 2.4 will be applied. (I'm not sure why you would want
to do this. But Adobe are giving photographers lots of choice in this
matter).

I believe Adobe has not issued a press release on this topic. Have you
a pointer to one?

Thomas Knoll never said that Photoshop CS2 wouldn't support the D2X; in
fact he said it would. Simply that it wouldn't decode the "as shot"
white balance for fear of runnng into trouble with DMCA. For many
photographers, that doesn't matter. It appears to have been the
photographers who cared about it who launched the arguments, not Adobe.

--
Barry Pearson
http://www.barry.pearson.name/photography/
http://www.birdsandanimals.info/

McLeod wrote:
On Fri, 20 May 2005 18:13:06 -0400, Alan Browne
wrote:

Adobe might gripe about Nikon. But its Nikon's customers who should
be
doing the major griping against Nikon.

To date, Konica-Minolta (and as far as a I know Canon, Pentax,
Olympus)
haven't hijacked the phtographers images, but that day may come.

Again, you should stay up to date. Adobe Camera Raw has full
functionality with Nikon D2x files as long as you update to CS2 and
install the newest raw plug-in.

I believe not. It can certainly do nearly everything, but I believe it
cannot access the "as shot" white balance.

(And, as I've said elsewhere, CS / ACR 2.4 can also process DNGs
generated from D2X NEFs).

--
Barry Pearson
http://www.barry.pearson.name/photography/
http://www.birdsandanimals.info/

G.T. wrote:
[snip]
As mentioned in other responses CS only supports ACR 2.4, ACR 2.4
doesn't
support the Rebel XT. So it depends on which version of PS you're
talking
about. My currently available Photoshops are Elements 3.0 and CS. I
would
prefer to use CS and will not upgrade to CS 2 just to get better
workflow.

As much of this thread says, convert your Rebel XT Raw files to DNG and
open with CS / ACR 2.4. It really does work!

--
Barry Pearson
http://www.barry.pearson.name/photography/
http://www.birdsandanimals.info/

McLeod wrote:

On Fri, 20 May 2005 18:13:06 -0400, Alan Browne
wrote:


Nikon's justification for encrypting white balance data in NEF files is
only to force the purchase of Nikon's Image Capture software. Nikon
have conveniently forgotten that the captured image belongs to the
photographer, not Nikon.


Adobe did a very good job of labelling Nikon through the internet, the
fact that you believe this shows that. At the same time Nikon
released the D2x they released a software developer kit for any third
party interested in the NEF files.
Less than two weeks after Adobe released this whining press release to
anyone who was interested the new NEF was supported (but only by CS2,
of course, so you will have to upgrade).

Nikon may release the dev kit spec to any qualified third party (read
the release) but that does not help any given photographer with the
issue. He'll have to cough up dough one way or another.

From Nikon: "At the same time, Nikon makes available a software
developer kit (SDK) that, when implemented appropriately, enables a wide
range of NEF performance, including white balance, for Nikon
photographers and their productive use of the NEF file."

Nikon are not doing anyone a service in this regard. Don't be fooled.
Unless you'll be implementing that dev kit yourself, you will pay someone.

When people buy a Nikon digital Camera, they should get, FREE OF CHARGE,
the software that gets the FULL potential out of that camera. Period.
Not the promisse that a software developer kit is 'available'. Same for
the other OEM's.

For their part, Adobe are not doing anyone a service wrt plugins that
aren't released for the very expensive CS.

Cheers,
Alan.

--
-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
-- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
-- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
-- e-meil: Remove FreeLunch.

McLeod wrote:

On Fri, 20 May 2005 18:13:06 -0400, Alan Browne
wrote:


Adobe might gripe about Nikon. But its Nikon's customers who should be
doing the major griping against Nikon.

To date, Konica-Minolta (and as far as a I know Canon, Pentax, Olympus)
haven't hijacked the phtographers images, but that day may come.



Again, you should stay up to date. Adobe Camera Raw has full
functionality with Nikon D2x files as long as you update to CS2 and
install the newest raw plug-in.

Again, the CS users are screwed and so are high end Nikon buyers.

In effect, regardless of the Adobe version, NIKON should be supplying
FREE OF CHARGE, the plugins that will allow myriad photoshop versions to
read the camera data in full. Or, Nikon should be supplying FREE OF
CHARGE, the full capability to read the data from the camera. But no,
they want to pad on some more revenue for giving you what you already
bought!

Adobe, should maintain plugin/camera compatibility back to at least CS
if not further back.

Milk. Milk. Milk.

--
-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
-- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
-- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
-- e-meil: Remove FreeLunch.