a portrait - Ellen DeGeneres

"Mark L" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 18 May 2010 20:15:17 -0400, "Peter"
wrote:

"Mark L" wrote in message
. ..

You will find an excellent micro-example of this playing out in the
popular
TV show called "Survivor". If there was no monetary reward you would see
a
very very different game being played. The most intelligent, wise, and
strongest would be the most valued members. I've lived in just such a
community for three years during the 70's. Living off the land on a
remote
South Pacific island with approximately 50 to 100 others. Money had
absolutely no value to any of us there. I could play the TV game-show of
"Survivor" for a year while standing on my head, it would be an
enjoyable
way to live, but I would not win their game. Instead (in the
capitalists'
game of "Survivor") the most intelligent, wise, and strongest are very
often voted off first because they are a threat to the less intelligent,
less wise, but greedy. Eventually only the most self-serving,
manipulative,
and deceitful ones are left. (Does this remind you of any faction of
your
own present society? Most call it "the government".) In a capitalist
promoting society you are getting a clear and frightening glimpse of the
evolutionary future of humanity being played out. "As is the fractal
part,
so goes the fractal whole."


Was that the place they used bananas as currency?
I can just hear the parents yelling at their kids. "YOU MUST THINK MONEY
GROWS ON TREES."

No. Your personality and what you could do for others was your only
"currency". Those without either could not "afford" to live there and left
on their own. That kind of currency does not grow on trees, nor can
someone
else just give it to you, or leave it to you in their Will. Bananas, like
everything else, was shared for free. We used one large cave for what we
called "The Library". If you happened to be foraging and gathered too much
of something or received some item from a pass-through tourist and didn't
need it, it would be put into "The Library". Where anyone who needed
anything could go and get it without even having to sign it out. No need
to
return it either, unless you wanted to. "The Library" was always packed
full. It contained a few books, many utensils, emergency medical supplies,
fishing/diving gear, maps, clothing (but nobody wore clothing there so
that
was mostly used to make more functional items), etc. Since we liked fresh
foods there was a rather large stockpile of unused canned-goods and other
dry-goods in "The Library" too. We had more enjoyable meals by spearing
our
food on the reefs or hunting inland. Lobster, wrasse, abalone, $90 per qt.
limpet-like shellfish delicacies that are sold in specialty shops today (I
would regularly lunch on those, they were 4x's the size you can find in
any
store), mountain-goat, etc. Going up into the highlands of the valley to
find all manner of fruits, nuts, and vegetables that you pay an arm and a
leg for in any store today. Even coffee-beans were readily available. I
used to roast them in a pan over a campfire. All for free. Nobody had any
set "jobs" and there were no "rulers" nor "leaders". People just did what
they enjoyed doing and doing for each other. Somehow everything always got
done. Any conflicts were usually solved by talking during dinner. After
dinners those who had no hunting nor foraging skills might offer their
services as masseuses to those who worked hard all day. Others provided
entertainment. Some acted as valuable teachers for those that wanted to
learn. Some tried their hand at all of these things.

Many who came through couldn't afford to live there for free. There was
nothing in their personality that they could or would do for others. They
would just leave without even being told to. Total failures. Perfect
reflections of present society.

Before you even bother asking the most often asked question of me, "Why
did
_you_ leave this paradise?" I'll answer with the only answer that came to
me one night while laying on the grass-covered helicopter landing and
staring up into the star-filled sky: "A student's lessons are for naught
if
they remain sitting at their desk." After receiving that lesson there was
no choice, my time had come, I had to leave. But not without having to
convince many others first.



Lighten up.

--
Peter

"Peter" wrote in message
...
"Neil Harrington" wrote in message
...

"Peter" wrote in message
...
"Neil Harrington" wrote in message
...


If you try to measure survival and evolutionary success in dollars you
are
sadly mistaken.

Fine. Now go explain that to Obama, carefully pointing out to him that
his central goal of "spreading the wealth around" (i.e., taking it away
from those who have worked, saved and invested to gain it and
distributing it to those who prefer to sit on their asses, watch TV and
wait for the welfare check) really is not going to bring "success" to
the recipients after all.

Learn from the banana republics. Learn from the communist revolution.
When society has two classes, haves and have nots, those of us who have
money tend to get more and more. Eventually the poor will rebel and we
will have chaos. Henry Ford has the right ides. He paid his workers
sufficient wages so they could afford to buy his cars.

And they went on strike anyway.

Likewise, for industry to be successful in the long term, people have to
have enough money to afford the products, both essential and
non=essential.

Yes. The idea, though, is for people to be productive enough to earn that
money -- not just have it handed to them. The principle of the Little Red
Hen applies here.



Yup! "Earn" being the operative word. There is something morally wrong
when we pay people in menial jobs more than teachers.

Teachers do pretty well for themselves. I wouldn't worry about the teachers.
Many of them obviously are overpaid now, considering the students they are
turning out. When community colleges have to screen new high school
graduates to see which ones require courses in remedial English, you know
something is seriously broken in our education system.

But in real life there are people who come upon hard times, through no
fault of their own.

There are indeed, but I daresay they make up a very, very small portion of
the jobless.

Do we let them starve on the streets, or provide a safety net to help them
get back.
The problem is that a few will play the system.

Much more than "a few," I'm afraid.

It may very well cost more to root them out, than it is worth.

How can it? The taxpayer is carrying them on his back now, as he has been
all along. Anything that gets them off the taxpayer's back is worthwhile.

In rec.photo.digital.slr-systems Neil Harrington wrote:
Teachers do pretty well for themselves. I wouldn't worry about the teachers.
Many of them obviously are overpaid now, considering the students they are
turning out. When community colleges have to screen new high school
graduates to see which ones require courses in remedial English, you know
something is seriously broken in our education system.

Teachers are doing well for themselves once they have 20 years under
their belt; entry-level pay is horrid.

But blaming the teachers is a little facetious; no matter how good the
teachers are, if the um, material they're given (be it in the form of
the students or the stuff they're mandated to teach) is ****, then the
results will still be ****.

I even agree that the system itself is fundamentally broken; it
was set up to churn out mindless workers, and it barely seems to be
doing that any more. Then again, it's not like there's any industry
left to employ said mindless workers.

- Solomon
--
Solomon Peachy pizza at shaftnet dot org
Melbourne, FL ^^ (mail/jabber/gtalk) ^^
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.

"Neil Harrington" wrote in message
...

"Peter" wrote in message
...


Yup! "Earn" being the operative word. There is something morally wrong
when we pay people in menial jobs more than teachers.

Teachers do pretty well for themselves. I wouldn't worry about the
teachers.

So better to pay the ticket taker on a comuter train more than a teacher,
for working less hours.

Many of them obviously are overpaid now, considering the students they are
turning out. When community colleges have to screen new high school
graduates to see which ones require courses in remedial English, you know
something is seriously broken in our education system.

Yes something is seriously broken in our education system and it is not the
teachers. Starting with the testing system, where teachers, schools and
administrators are rated on how well the kids do on the test. Do you think
they are encouraged to teach life skills, or teach to the test. If an item
is 4 for $1.00 try buying 3. See if the cashier can figure it out without
the computerized register. When I was a kid, if I did poorly, my parents
would quickly gret involved. Today, if a kid is not doing well, it's the
teacher's fault. B.S. Whatever happened to parental involvement. Get rid of
political correctness. Go back to neighborhood schools.
At one time they tried an experiment called open enrollment. NYC colleges
admitted everybody, regardless of ability. It was a dismal failure. I was an
adjunct and had instructions that all kids must pass. I refused to go along
and my contract was not renewed. (Not for that reason, I told the department
chairman that he was a pompous asshole.)





But in real life there are people who come upon hard times, through no
fault of their own.

There are indeed, but I daresay they make up a very, very small portion of
the jobless.

Do you actually believe that most jobless people like it that way? Wow! get
a grip
How many hundreds of thousands were put out of work because of the greed of
investment bankers. I personally know quite a few. Not one of them doesn't
want to work.



Do we let them starve on the streets, or provide a safety net to help
them get back.
The problem is that a few will play the system.

Much more than "a few," I'm afraid.


Give me meaningful statistics.

It may very well cost more to root them out, than it is worth.

How can it? The taxpayer is carrying them on his back now, as he has been
all along. Anything that gets them off the taxpayer's back is worthwhile.


Who is them?
Throw the cheats in jail. But don't take away the safety net from those who
need it.

How would you feel about hiring more social workers to screen and assist the
poor.

--
Peter

"Stuffed Crust" wrote in message
ng.com...
In rec.photo.digital.slr-systems Neil Harrington wrote:
Teachers do pretty well for themselves. I wouldn't worry about the
teachers.
Many of them obviously are overpaid now, considering the students they
are
turning out. When community colleges have to screen new high school
graduates to see which ones require courses in remedial English, you know
something is seriously broken in our education system.

Teachers are doing well for themselves once they have 20 years under
their belt; entry-level pay is horrid.

But blaming the teachers is a little facetious; no matter how good the
teachers are, if the um, material they're given (be it in the form of
the students or the stuff they're mandated to teach) is ****, then the
results will still be ****.

I even agree that the system itself is fundamentally broken; it
was set up to churn out mindless workers, and it barely seems to be
doing that any more. Then again, it's not like there's any industry
left to employ said mindless workers.



And just why do you think that is?


--
Peter

"Stuffed Crust" wrote in message
ng.com...
In rec.photo.digital.slr-systems Neil Harrington wrote:
Teachers do pretty well for themselves. I wouldn't worry about the
teachers.
Many of them obviously are overpaid now, considering the students they
are
turning out. When community colleges have to screen new high school
graduates to see which ones require courses in remedial English, you know
something is seriously broken in our education system.

Teachers are doing well for themselves once they have 20 years under
their belt; entry-level pay is horrid.

I doubt it's really that "horrid," especially for a job that provides plenty
of holidays -- not to mention summers off. And in the vast majority of cases
they have no problem getting that 20 years in, and as much longer as they
like, since job security is clearly excellent in that line of work. We have
about 10% unemployment right now, probably about 17% if those who have given
up looking for work are included -- but I haven't heard about any teachers
being thrown out of work, except at one really lousy school in Rhode Island
that was so bad they fired all the teachers.


But blaming the teachers is a little facetious; no matter how good the
teachers are, if the um, material they're given (be it in the form of
the students or the stuff they're mandated to teach) is ****, then the
results will still be ****.

That's true enough, but doesn't most of the fault there lie with the
education community itself? They have powerful unions and therefore plenty
of political influence (especially now, all the way up to the White House).
If they can't do something about the ****, who can?

I notice that Catholic schools seem to be doing a lot better job, and with a
lot less money. And no unions.


I even agree that the system itself is fundamentally broken; it
was set up to churn out mindless workers, and it barely seems to be
doing that any more. Then again, it's not like there's any industry
left to employ said mindless workers.

When I went to school (which was a long, long time ago) it wasn't "set up to
churn out mindless workers." If that's really what it's become, then that
too is surely the direct fault of the education community.

In rec.photo.digital.slr-systems Neil Harrington wrote:
I doubt it's really that "horrid," especially for a job that provides plenty
of holidays -- not to mention summers off. And in the vast majority of cases

Here it's about $22K starting pay for a full-time teacher at the high
school level. That goes up to $26K if it's in a high-demand field, like
math or science.

up looking for work are included -- but I haven't heard about any teachers
being thrown out of work, except at one really lousy school in Rhode Island
that was so bad they fired all the teachers.

My local school system laid off teachers, as have many others around
Florida -- but here they're expected to re-hire most of them with
federal stimulus money. The local community college now only operates
four days a week, and just laid off a couple dozen people too, but most
of them weren't faculty.

That's true enough, but doesn't most of the fault there lie with the
education community itself? They have powerful unions and therefore plenty
of political influence (especially now, all the way up to the White House).
If they can't do something about the ****, who can?

When I went to school (which was a long, long time ago) it wasn't "set up to
churn out mindless workers." If that's really what it's become, then that
too is surely the direct fault of the education community.

When you went to school, if you misbehaved, your teacher would give you
a whack and your parents would have thanked them for it.

- Solomon
--
Solomon Peachy pizza at shaftnet dot org
Melbourne, FL ^^ (mail/jabber/gtalk) ^^
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.

"Neil Harrington" wrote in message
...

"Stuffed Crust" wrote in message
ng.com...
In rec.photo.digital.slr-systems Neil Harrington wrote:
Teachers do pretty well for themselves. I wouldn't worry about the
teachers.
Many of them obviously are overpaid now, considering the students they
are
turning out. When community colleges have to screen new high school
graduates to see which ones require courses in remedial English, you
know
something is seriously broken in our education system.

Teachers are doing well for themselves once they have 20 years under
their belt; entry-level pay is horrid.

I doubt it's really that "horrid," especially for a job that provides
plenty of holidays -- not to mention summers off. And in the vast majority
of cases they have no problem getting that 20 years in, and as much longer
as they like, since job security is clearly excellent in that line of
work. We have about 10% unemployment right now, probably about 17% if
those who have given up looking for work are included -- but I haven't
heard about any teachers being thrown out of work, except at one really
lousy school in Rhode Island that was so bad they fired all the teachers.


But blaming the teachers is a little facetious; no matter how good the
teachers are, if the um, material they're given (be it in the form of
the students or the stuff they're mandated to teach) is ****, then the
results will still be ****.

That's true enough, but doesn't most of the fault there lie with the
education community itself? They have powerful unions and therefore plenty
of political influence (especially now, all the way up to the White
House). If they can't do something about the ****, who can?

I notice that Catholic schools seem to be doing a lot better job, and with
a lot less money. And no unions.


I even agree that the system itself is fundamentally broken; it
was set up to churn out mindless workers, and it barely seems to be
doing that any more. Then again, it's not like there's any industry
left to employ said mindless workers.

When I went to school (which was a long, long time ago) it wasn't "set up
to churn out mindless workers." If that's really what it's become, then
that too is surely the direct fault of the education community.

Come to Long Island where you'll find that many teachers are going to lose
their jobs. The state has cut funding and there's no money to pay all of
them. Now, they earn a good salary on Long Island. Starting pay is about
40K, more in some districts. Every teacher in New York is required to have
an MBA after five years of receiving their teaching license. So, if after
five years, a teacher is earning 45K (assuming a 3% per year increase which
is generous nowadays and doesn't really happen) with an MBA, is that really
overpaid?

I'm married to a school teacher. My wife teaches kindergarten special ed.
She works hard, darn hard. She has two MBAs, has had her wrist broken, her
kneecap shattered, and almost had a miscarraige due to injuries inflicted by
students. She deals with parents who should never have been allowed to
reproduce and cause more problems than their kids. She earns every penny
she gets.

On Wed, 19 May 2010 11:28:06 -0400, "Peter"
wrote:

"Neil Harrington" wrote in message
m...

"Peter" wrote in message
...


Yup! "Earn" being the operative word. There is something morally wrong
when we pay people in menial jobs more than teachers.

Teachers do pretty well for themselves. I wouldn't worry about the
teachers.

So better to pay the ticket taker on a comuter train more than a teacher,
for working less hours.

Many of them obviously are overpaid now, considering the students they are
turning out. When community colleges have to screen new high school
graduates to see which ones require courses in remedial English, you know
something is seriously broken in our education system.

Yes something is seriously broken in our education system and it is not the
teachers. Starting with the testing system, where teachers, schools and
administrators are rated on how well the kids do on the test. Do you think
they are encouraged to teach life skills, or teach to the test. If an item
is 4 for $1.00 try buying 3. See if the cashier can figure it out without
the computerized register. When I was a kid, if I did poorly, my parents
would quickly gret involved. Today, if a kid is not doing well, it's the
teacher's fault. B.S. Whatever happened to parental involvement. Get rid of
political correctness. Go back to neighborhood schools.
At one time they tried an experiment called open enrollment. NYC colleges
admitted everybody, regardless of ability. It was a dismal failure. I was an
adjunct and had instructions that all kids must pass. I refused to go along
and my contract was not renewed. (Not for that reason, I told the department
chairman that he was a pompous asshole.)



Again, this is the direct result from the human trait of greed being
heralded as something that is beneficial to survival.

Greedy republican CEOs have set up a financial environment for half a
century where both parents have to be employed or work more than one job
each just to provide basic necessities for their offspring, just barely. In
effect, the wealthy want (and already have) everyone automatically born as
an indentured slave. This does not allow those who reproduce to raise their
children with the attention they deserve. Their children grow up in an
environment where they see their parents more interested in financial gain
than the children themselves. They quickly learn the lesson that material
possessions and financial wealth are far more important than their own
human lives.

Then they are sent to schools where the number of pupils to teachers does
not allow individual attention because there's not enough money for that.
Again, they are taught that things, other than themselves, are more
important and to be valued. This is why you see children shooting other
children over something as simple as a pair of gym-shoes. The other
children's lives have no value to them, only "things" and money have value
to them. That's what they learned as they grew up watching their parents
run off to their required menial jobs and leaving them alone. Watch another
youtube video of classmates beating up another just for fun. Fame,
popularity, and wealth are far more important than that human life they are
beating on.

You have nothing but your own promotion of greed to blame for the state of
your education system and the behavior of the children it consumes.




But in real life there are people who come upon hard times, through no
fault of their own.

There are indeed, but I daresay they make up a very, very small portion of
the jobless.

Do you actually believe that most jobless people like it that way? Wow! get
a grip
How many hundreds of thousands were put out of work because of the greed of
investment bankers. I personally know quite a few. Not one of them doesn't
want to work.



Do we let them starve on the streets, or provide a safety net to help
them get back.
The problem is that a few will play the system.

Much more than "a few," I'm afraid.


Give me meaningful statistics.

It may very well cost more to root them out, than it is worth.

How can it? The taxpayer is carrying them on his back now, as he has been
all along. Anything that gets them off the taxpayer's back is worthwhile.


Who is them?
Throw the cheats in jail. But don't take away the safety net from those who
need it.

How would you feel about hiring more social workers to screen and assist the
poor.

Yes, lets build more prisons. After all, you have been taught that putting
someone in jail is more important than giving them an education. It's
simpler, faster, and more profitable. It even creates minimum-wage jobs to
build and staff prisons. That's how the last local prison was promoted in
the local news. Prisons make more money for CEOs than schools do. Now go
get another job to pay for it in taxes. Greedy CEOs have found a way to tap
into your tax money directly and groom politicians to pass laws to ensure
those prisons have a ready supply of inhabitants. They've got you right
where they want you. You're just all too ignorant and foolish to realize
it.

Promote your own greed some more. I am finding this thoroughly enjoyable
watching this all play out. I always wondered how a total collapse of a
civilization took place. There was never anyone left to record previous
collapses. This is most fascinating.

From a world economy on the precipice of total collapse that has been
created and undermined by the greedy; to an impending collapse of a medical
system that everyone has been taught to be dependent on, again created by
greed; now add in 4 to 6 generations of children who have been taught that
material possessions and money are far more important than your own human
lives.

Have fun trying to reverse the damage you have done by promoting capitalism
and greed. But I have to tell you ... it is far far too late for that.

Enjoy the show.

I will, I am. Enjoying the show, that is. It doesn't matter what happens to
the rest of civilization. It won't change my life one bit. I know how to
survive without the help of anyone. I could be the last person on earth and
it wouldn't change my life one bit. Well, actually, it would. It would only
increase the quality of my life.

Do you know how to survive alone? You might want to learn ... fast.

In rec.photo.digital.slr-systems Neil Harrington wrote:
"Peter" wrote in message

Yup! "Earn" being the operative word. There is something morally wrong
when we pay people in menial jobs more than teachers.

Teachers do pretty well for themselves. I wouldn't worry about the teachers.
Many of them obviously are overpaid now, considering the students they are
turning out. When community colleges have to screen new high school
graduates to see which ones require courses in remedial English, you know
something is seriously broken in our education system.

It's the pupils. Too many of them these days are too badly behaved for
class teaching to work as well as it used to.

--
Chris Malcolm