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Nikon mirrorless FF's launch. Sony FF sales about to drop. A lot.



 
 
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  #21  
Old August 26th 18, 04:02 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
Savageduck[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 15,571
Default Nikon mirrorless FF's launch. Sony FF sales about to drop. A lot.

On Aug 26, 2018, Sandman wrote
(in ):

In iganews.com,
Savageduck wrote:

Sandman:
In what way did they miss the mark, though?


Start with the single memory slot.


Yeah, that seems to be the only valid complaint.


That and a few AF issues, such as no eye-AF, inconsistant AF-C tracking to
name a few other complaints.


Sandman:
Same resolution, more focusing points, smaller camera, higher
frame rate.


...er, not too much smaller


Huh? It's a lot smaller. It's by far the smallest FF digital camera Nikon
has ever made.


So Nikon is making in-house comparisons.

, especially with the fat “S" glass
designed for the Zs. In a smaller world the M43, and APS-C MILCs
have nothing to fear from the FF MILCs.


But you compared it to the D850, not to lesser smaller cameras.


Of course I compared it D850. It uses the same sensor, and price point so the
comparison is fair. However, if I were in the market for a Nikon FF camera
today I would not be impressed with the Z7, and I would buy a D850.

Then one wonders what Nikon has in mind for all those D7100, D7200, D7500,
and D500 shooters who are waiting for a Nikon APS-C MILC.

Sandman:
The unknowns, at least to me, is focusing speed. I haven't watched
any reviews yet.


From what I have read the AF does not match up to the D850, D5, or
D500, and Nikon isn’t going to erode sales of those cameras with
either the Z6, or Z7. They are going to try to get a piece of the
Sony FF pie, and they are going to pick up sales fron Nikon FF DSLR
owners who have been reluctant to move into the MILC world.


Seeing how Sony A7 focusing speed trounces Nikon today, if they want to
compete, that's an important factor.


Yup!

Sandman:
As far as I can determine, the D850 has it beat on shots per
battery charge.


...and that is another issue. If Nikon is trying to produce a pro FF
MILC it needs to compete with the Nikon pro DSLRs with all specs,
including battery life.


Nikon is trying to compete with the A7, not their own DSLR's. A non-
insignificant part of the photographing world is moving to mirrorless, and
Nikon is missing out. In doing so, their target is not to compete with their
own top of the line DSLR's but with the guys that keep snatching up their
customers.


Unfortunately they are positioning themselves to loose a large share of the
consumer APS-C DSLR market they own, to the other mirrorless options.

For now both the Z6 & Z7 are high priced
prosumer MILCs with a limited native lens availability (admitedly
there is the promise of the “S” lens roadmap).


Indeed, which is exactly where Sony was a bunch of years ago, with the A7.


....and now Nikon is still a bunch of years behind Sony, and the others.


Using F mount
lenses with the adaptor turns what should be a reasonably compact
system into an unwieldly kludge.


Huh? You're not making much sense. The adaptor increases the flange
distance, i.e. it adds bulk that is already present in all current F-mount
Nikon cameras to be backwards compatible. A Z6 plus the adapter would be as
"unwieldy" as a D7100.


I would reserve judgement on that, the D7xxx family are quite lightweight
DSLRs.

even with the adaptor none of their
older screw focus lenses will work. For folks looking for a FF MILC
system they should consider the Sony offerings.


That's already what they are doing. Sony is the only player, and they're
doing a marvellous job, with amazing offerings for prosumer up to pro.
That's the piece of the pie that Nikon is losing and is wanting to get back.
Backwards compatibility with the F-mount is pretty crucial to that, seeing
how Nikon has a hundred times more and better glass than Sony could ever
dream of.


Agreed. However, as promising as the Z-cameras are from the release hype,
they have a long way to go to catch up to Sony, and they might well have
damaged their APS-C market share.

Sandman:
Whether it's a worthy competitor to the A7R III is another story.


For now it seems the Sony has the edge. However, there are going to
be a whole bunch of Nikon FF shooters with legacy F mount glass who
are going to be tempted.


I bet.


--

Regards,
Savageduck

  #22  
Old August 26th 18, 05:09 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
Savageduck[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 15,571
Default Nikon mirrorless FF's launch. Sony FF sales about to drop. A lot.

On Aug 26, 2018, Savageduck wrote
(in iganews.com):

On Aug 26, 2018, Sandman wrote
(in ):

In iganews.com,
Savageduck wrote:

Sandman:
In what way did they miss the mark, though?

Start with the single memory slot.


Yeah, that seems to be the only valid complaint.


That and a few AF issues, such as no eye-AF, inconsistant AF-C tracking to
name a few other complaints.


Sandman:
Same resolution, more focusing points, smaller camera, higher
frame rate.

...er, not too much smaller


Huh? It's a lot smaller. It's by far the smallest FF digital camera Nikon
has ever made.


So Nikon is making in-house comparisons.

, especially with the fat “S" glass
designed for the Zs. In a smaller world the M43, and APS-C MILCs
have nothing to fear from the FF MILCs.


But you compared it to the D850, not to lesser smaller cameras.


Of course I compared it D850. It uses the same sensor, and price point so the
comparison is fair. However, if I were in the market for a Nikon FF camera
today I would not be impressed with the Z7, and I would buy a D850.

Then one wonders what Nikon has in mind for all those D7100, D7200, D7500,
and D500 shooters who are waiting for a Nikon APS-C MILC.

Sandman:
The unknowns, at least to me, is focusing speed. I haven't watched
any reviews yet.

From what I have read the AF does not match up to the D850, D5, or
D500, and Nikon isn’t going to erode sales of those cameras with
either the Z6, or Z7. They are going to try to get a piece of the
Sony FF pie, and they are going to pick up sales fron Nikon FF DSLR
owners who have been reluctant to move into the MILC world.


Seeing how Sony A7 focusing speed trounces Nikon today, if they want to
compete, that's an important factor.


Yup!

Sandman:
As far as I can determine, the D850 has it beat on shots per
battery charge.

...and that is another issue. If Nikon is trying to produce a pro FF
MILC it needs to compete with the Nikon pro DSLRs with all specs,
including battery life.


Nikon is trying to compete with the A7, not their own DSLR's. A non-
insignificant part of the photographing world is moving to mirrorless, and
Nikon is missing out. In doing so, their target is not to compete with their
own top of the line DSLR's but with the guys that keep snatching up their
customers.


Unfortunately they are positioning themselves to loose a large share of the
consumer APS-C DSLR market they own, to the other mirrorless options.

For now both the Z6 & Z7 are high priced
prosumer MILCs with a limited native lens availability (admitedly
there is the promise of the “S” lens roadmap).


Indeed, which is exactly where Sony was a bunch of years ago, with the A7.


...and now Nikon is still a bunch of years behind Sony, and the others.


Using F mount
lenses with the adaptor turns what should be a reasonably compact
system into an unwieldly kludge.


Huh? You're not making much sense. The adaptor increases the flange
distance, i.e. it adds bulk that is already present in all current F-mount
Nikon cameras to be backwards compatible. A Z6 plus the adapter would be as
"unwieldy" as a D7100.


I would reserve judgement on that, the D7xxx family are quite lightweight
DSLRs.

even with the adaptor none of their
older screw focus lenses will work. For folks looking for a FF MILC
system they should consider the Sony offerings.


That's already what they are doing. Sony is the only player, and they're
doing a marvellous job, with amazing offerings for prosumer up to pro.
That's the piece of the pie that Nikon is losing and is wanting to get back.
Backwards compatibility with the F-mount is pretty crucial to that, seeing
how Nikon has a hundred times more and better glass than Sony could ever
dream of.


Agreed. However, as promising as the Z-cameras are from the release hype,
they have a long way to go to catch up to Sony, and they might well have
damaged their APS-C market share.

Sandman:
Whether it's a worthy competitor to the A7R III is another story.

For now it seems the Sony has the edge. However, there are going to
be a whole bunch of Nikon FF shooters with legacy F mount glass who
are going to be tempted.


I bet.


Here is Thom Hogan’s take on the Nikon V6, and V7.

http://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/nikon-re-enters-mirrorless.html

--

Regards,
Savageduck

  #23  
Old August 27th 18, 06:20 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
Sandman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,429
Default Nikon mirrorless FF's launch. Sony FF sales about to drop. A lot.

In article .com,
Savageduck wrote:

In what way did they miss the mark, though?

Savageduck:
Start with the single memory slot.


Sandman:
Yeah, that seems to be the only valid complaint.


That and a few AF issues, such as no eye-AF


Neither does the D850 or D500, remember?

Sandman:
Same resolution, more focusing points, smaller camera, higher
frame rate.

Savageduck:
...er, not too much smaller


Sandman:
Huh? It's a lot smaller. It's by far the smallest FF digital
camera Nikon has ever made.


So Nikon is making in-house comparisons.


No, you a

Savageduck
Nikon mirrorless FF's launch. Sony FF sales about to drop. A lot.
08/24/2018 .com

"I think I will skip either one of these. Nikon missed the
MILC target with these two cameras, but it is a start, so
perhaps in 4-5 years they will have a good MILC which can
replace the D850, 0r even the D500, but not yet."

That's what you said, to which I asked "in what way did they miss the mark?"
above. You're the one that comparing it to the D850 and D500.

Savageduck:
, especially with the fat “S" glass designed for the Zs. In a
smaller world the M43, and APS-C MILCs have nothing to fear from
the FF MILCs.


Sandman:
But you compared it to the D850, not to lesser smaller cameras.


Of course I compared it D850. It uses the same sensor, and price
point so the comparison is fair. However, if I were in the market
for a Nikon FF camera today I would not be impressed with the Z7,
and I would buy a D850.


Cool, more power to you

Then one wonders what Nikon has in mind for all those D7100, D7200,
D7500, and D500 shooters who are waiting for a Nikon APS-C MILC.


Same as Sony. Grab the upper market first, then move down with innovations.
They're just five years late, but they do have an edge when it comes to
lenses, so... It's hard to say. If/when the Z line becomes successful,
you'll see Z60, Z600 and Z3000 or whatever for consumer versions as well, I
bet.

This is pretty much how cameras and most tech products work. You create a
top of the line products first and move down from there. You see it in the
Sony A7, Tesla Model S, iPod, iPhone and so on. You have to go in and get
the margins first, in order to trickle down the technology when it makes
money.

Sandman:
As far as I can determine, the D850 has it beat on shots per
battery charge.

Savageduck:
...and that is another issue. If Nikon is trying to produce a
pro FF MILC it needs to compete with the Nikon pro DSLRs with
all specs, including battery life.


Sandman:
Nikon is trying to compete with the A7, not their own DSLR's. A
non- insignificant part of the photographing world is moving to
mirrorless, and Nikon is missing out. In doing so, their target is
not to compete with their own top of the line DSLR's but with the
guys that keep snatching up their customers.


Unfortunately they are positioning themselves to loose a large share
of the consumer APS-C DSLR market they own, to the other mirrorless
options.


Of course, since they don't have a APS-C offering yet. See above. They are
late to this party, but this is the only way to do it. The prosumer/pro
market is where the money is. The consumer market is where everyone fights
with super thin margins.

Savageduck:
For now both the Z6 & Z7 are high priced prosumer MILCs with a
limited native lens availability (admitedly there is the promise
of the “S” lens roadmap).


Sandman:
Indeed, which is exactly where Sony was a bunch of years ago, with
the A7.


...and now Nikon is still a bunch of years behind Sony, and the
others.


There are no others. It's only Sony. There are only others when it comes to
APS-C. And there is very little money there. I am guessing, since I don't
actually have much data, that there aren't very many camera makes that are
making a lot of money from the consumer APS-C mirrorless market. The margins
are usually too small. The only reason there *is* a consumer camera market
is that most camera makers are hoping they will upgrade to their better
cameras where they make more money.

Some camera makers make only APS-C, but I believe they're still used to low
margins. Even for Fujifilm, cameras is a very small part of their overall
business.

Savageduck:
Using F mount lenses with the adaptor turns what should be a
reasonably compact system into an unwieldly kludge.


Sandman:
Huh? You're not making much sense. The adaptor increases the
flange distance, i.e. it adds bulk that is already present in all
current F-mount Nikon cameras to be backwards compatible. A Z6
plus the adapter would be as "unwieldy" as a D7100.


I would reserve judgement on that, the D7xxx family are quite
lightweight DSLRs.


They are, but the difference is pretty big:
https://www.apotelyt.com/compare-camera/nikon-d7100-vs-nikon-z6

Savageduck:
even with the adaptor none of their older screw focus lenses
will work. For folks looking for a FF MILC system they should
consider the Sony offerings.


Sandman:
That's already what they are doing. Sony is the only player, and
they're doing a marvellous job, with amazing offerings for
prosumer up to pro. That's the piece of the pie that Nikon is
losing and is wanting to get back. Backwards compatibility with
the F-mount is pretty crucial to that, seeing how Nikon has a
hundred times more and better glass than Sony could ever dream of.


Agreed. However, as promising as the Z-cameras are from the release
hype, they have a long way to go to catch up to Sony, and they might
well have damaged their APS-C market share.


No, the Z6 and Z7 haven't or can't damage their APS-C market share. People
that have or were considering Nikon's APS-C cameras have either bought a
APS-S Nikon or a APS-C camera from someone else. Nikon will - depending on
how the Z series works out - release mirrorless APS-C in the future. But the
release of the Z6 and Z7 haven't changed anything for these customers today.

While the A6XXX Sony series seem to be doing well, I don't think it's doing
as well as the Nikon/Canon APS-C cameras. The place where Sony is doing
really well is in FF mirrorless, i.e the A7/9 series. Or rather the A7
series, I don't know if the A9 have been an enormous success.

--
Sandman
  #24  
Old August 27th 18, 06:50 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
Savageduck[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 15,571
Default Nikon mirrorless FF's launch. Sony FF sales about to drop. A lot.

On Aug 26, 2018, Sandman wrote
(in ):

In iganews.com,
Savageduck wrote:

In what way did they miss the mark, though?

Savageduck:
Start with the single memory slot.

Sandman:
Yeah, that seems to be the only valid complaint.


That and a few AF issues, such as no eye-AF


Neither does the D850 or D500, remember?

Sandman:
Same resolution, more focusing points, smaller camera, higher
frame rate.

Savageduck:
...er, not too much smaller

Sandman:
Huh? It's a lot smaller. It's by far the smallest FF digital
camera Nikon has ever made.


So Nikon is making in-house comparisons.


No, you a

Savageduck
Nikon mirrorless FF's launch. Sony FF sales about to drop. A lot.
news.com

"I think I will skip either one of these. Nikon missed the
MILC target with these two cameras, but it is a start, so
perhaps in 4-5 years they will have a good MILC which can
replace the D850, 0r even the D500, but not yet."

That's what you said, to which I asked "in what way did they miss the mark?"
above. You're the one that comparing it to the D850 and D500.


Then it seems silly that they are priced for folks who either own the high
end Nikon FF DSLRs, or those who are shopping for a high end Nikon FF camera.
What does Nikon want to sell, DSLRs, or MILCs?


Savageduck:
, especially with the fat “S" glass designed for the Zs. In a
smaller world the M43, and APS-C MILCs have nothing to fear from
the FF MILCs.

Sandman:
But you compared it to the D850, not to lesser smaller cameras.


Of course I compared it D850. It uses the same sensor, and price
point so the comparison is fair. However, if I were in the market
for a Nikon FF camera today I would not be impressed with the Z7,
and I would buy a D850.


Cool, more power to you


I did say if I were in the market for a FF camera. However, I am still an old
fart enthusiast/hobbyist, and APS-C works just fine for me, so I am not in
the market for either these Z cameras, or a D850, but the D500 is very
tempting


Then one wonders what Nikon has in mind for all those D7100, D7200,
D7500, and D500 shooters who are waiting for a Nikon APS-C MILC.


Same as Sony. Grab the upper market first, then move down with innovations.
They're just five years late, but they do have an edge when it comes to
lenses, so... It's hard to say. If/when the Z line becomes successful,
you'll see Z60, Z600 and Z3000 or whatever for consumer versions as well, I
bet.


Perhaps.

This is pretty much how cameras and most tech products work. You create a
top of the line products first and move down from there. You see it in the
Sony A7, Tesla Model S, iPod, iPhone and so on. You have to go in and get
the margins first, in order to trickle down the technology when it makes
money.

Sandman:
As far as I can determine, the D850 has it beat on shots per
battery charge.

Savageduck:
...and that is another issue. If Nikon is trying to produce a
pro FF MILC it needs to compete with the Nikon pro DSLRs with
all specs, including battery life.

Sandman:
Nikon is trying to compete with the A7, not their own DSLR's. A
non- insignificant part of the photographing world is moving to
mirrorless, and Nikon is missing out. In doing so, their target is
not to compete with their own top of the line DSLR's but with the
guys that keep snatching up their customers.


Unfortunately they are positioning themselves to loose a large share
of the consumer APS-C DSLR market they own, to the other mirrorless
options.


Of course, since they don't have a APS-C offering yet. See above. They are
late to this party, but this is the only way to do it. The prosumer/pro
market is where the money is. The consumer market is where everyone fights
with super thin margins.


Don’t you love it when a plan comes together. ;-)


Savageduck:
For now both the Z6 & Z7 are high priced prosumer MILCs with a
limited native lens availability (admitedly there is the promise
of the “S” lens roadmap).

Sandman:
Indeed, which is exactly where Sony was a bunch of years ago, with
the A7.


...and now Nikon is still a bunch of years behind Sony, and the
others.


There are no others. It's only Sony.


We are waiting on Canon.

There are only others when it comes to
APS-C. And there is very little money there. I am guessing, since I don't
actually have much data, that there aren't very many camera makes that are
making a lot of money from the consumer APS-C mirrorless market. The margins
are usually too small. The only reason there *is* a consumer camera market
is that most camera makers are hoping they will upgrade to their better
cameras where they make more money.

Some camera makers make only APS-C, but I believe they're still used to low
margins. Even for Fujifilm, cameras is a very small part of their overall
business.

Savageduck:
Using F mount lenses with the adaptor turns what should be a
reasonably compact system into an unwieldly kludge.

Sandman:
Huh? You're not making much sense. The adaptor increases the
flange distance, i.e. it adds bulk that is already present in all
current F-mount Nikon cameras to be backwards compatible. A Z6
plus the adapter would be as "unwieldy" as a D7100.


I would reserve judgement on that, the D7xxx family are quite
lightweight DSLRs.


They are, but the difference is pretty big:
https://www.apotelyt.com/compare-camera/nikon-d7100-vs-nikon-z6

Savageduck:
even with the adaptor none of their older screw focus lenses
will work. For folks looking for a FF MILC system they should
consider the Sony offerings.

Sandman:
That's already what they are doing. Sony is the only player, and
they're doing a marvellous job, with amazing offerings for
prosumer up to pro. That's the piece of the pie that Nikon is
losing and is wanting to get back. Backwards compatibility with
the F-mount is pretty crucial to that, seeing how Nikon has a
hundred times more and better glass than Sony could ever dream of.


Agreed. However, as promising as the Z-cameras are from the release
hype, they have a long way to go to catch up to Sony, and they might
well have damaged their APS-C market share.


No, the Z6 and Z7 haven't or can't damage their APS-C market share. People
that have or were considering Nikon's APS-C cameras have either bought a
APS-S Nikon or a APS-C camera from someone else. Nikon will - depending on
how the Z series works out - release mirrorless APS-C in the future. But the
release of the Z6 and Z7 haven't changed anything for these customers today.


One would hope.

While the A6XXX Sony series seem to be doing well, I don't think it's doing
as well as the Nikon/Canon APS-C cameras. The place where Sony is doing
really well is in FF mirrorless, i.e the A7/9 series. Or rather the A7
series, I don't know if the A9 have been an enormous success.


I guess the old Chinese curse is in effect; “May you live in interesting
times.”

So now we wait on Canon to see what they deliver to the FF MILC fight.

....and we wait another 2-5 years to see if Nikon does anything with APS-C for
MILC.

Fujifilm is about to release the X-T3 with a new BIL sensor which will
migrate to the X-H2. Along with that will be their less costly GFX-50R, a
rangefinder MF, supposedly around $2000 (an X-Pro on steroids).

--

Regards,
Savageduck

  #25  
Old August 27th 18, 07:26 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
Sandman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,429
Default Nikon mirrorless FF's launch. Sony FF sales about to drop. A lot.

In article .com,
Savageduck wrote:

Sandman:
No, you a


Savageduck Nikon mirrorless FF's launch. Sony FF sales about
to drop. A lot.
news.com


"I think I will skip either one of these. Nikon missed the
MILC target with these two cameras, but it is a start, so
perhaps in 4-5 years they will have a good MILC which can
replace the D850, 0r even the D500, but not yet."


That's what you said, to which I asked "in what way did they miss
the mark?" above. You're the one that comparing it to the D850 and
D500.


Then it seems silly that they are priced for folks who either own
the high end Nikon FF DSLRs, or those who are shopping for a high
end Nikon FF camera. What does Nikon want to sell, DSLRs, or MILCs?


Both, preferably. They want to *stop* losing customers to Sony. Currently
they are bleeding high end DSLR customers to high end Sony mirrorless. By
offering a high end mirrorless, they hope to stop this.

Savageduck:
Unfortunately they are positioning themselves to loose a large
share of the consumer APS-C DSLR market they own, to the other
mirrorless options.


Sandman:
Of course, since they don't have a APS-C offering yet. See above.
They are late to this party, but this is the only way to do it.
The prosumer/pro market is where the money is. The consumer market
is where everyone fights with super thin margins.


Don’t you love it when a plan comes together. ;-)


Sony does

We see this way too often in tech. Someone creates a new product niche, a
niche that isn't really innovative in itself, but it's a niche that the
major players haven't worked towards because their current business line
works "just fine". When they see large parts of the customer base move to
this new niche - they have to act, but they can't act too quick, they have
to get it right. Or they're stubborn (Microsoft when the iPhone was
released).

So being five years late is pretty much par for the course. Sony didn't rule
overnight, it took a year or two before Nikon could see the effect of the
A7, and then another year of stubbornness perhaps, and then another two
years of development of the Z line. You can't turn around something as big
as Nikon overnight.

Savageduck:
...and now Nikon is still a bunch of years behind Sony, and the
others.


Sandman:
There are no others. It's only Sony.


We are waiting on Canon.


Nikon isn't

Savageduck:
Agreed. However, as promising as the Z-cameras are from the
release hype, they have a long way to go to catch up to Sony,
and they might well have damaged their APS-C market share.


Sandman:
No, the Z6 and Z7 haven't or can't damage their APS-C market
share. People that have or were considering Nikon's APS-C cameras
have either bought a APS-S Nikon or a APS-C camera from someone
else. Nikon will - depending on how the Z series works out -
release mirrorless APS-C in the future. But the release of the Z6
and Z7 haven't changed anything for these customers today.


One would hope.


You said it yourself - you're a APS-C user yourself, and a good example of
this. You currently have a Nikon and a Fuji APS-C, your next camera could be
a Nikon D500 or another Fuji, the existence of the Z6 hasn't changed
anything for you. It's not like you'd choose the Fuji *because* Nikon
released the Z6. If anything, you are allowed to be a bit miffed about the
fact that Nikon doesn't yet have an APS-C mirrorless lineup timeline, but
that doesn't change what products that are available to you today.

Sandman:
While the A6XXX Sony series seem to be doing well, I don't think
it's doing as well as the Nikon/Canon APS-C cameras. The place
where Sony is doing really well is in FF mirrorless, i.e the A7/9
series. Or rather the A7 series, I don't know if the A9 have been
an enormous success.


I guess the old Chinese curse is in effect; “May you live in
interesting times.”


So now we wait on Canon to see what they deliver to the FF MILC
fight.


Indeed. Canon is in the same boat as Nikon here. Or rather, they're still
outside the boat, but when they do get into the boat, they have to start
from scratch. Well, unless they use the same mount to have 100% backwards
compatibility, then they have a real edge.

...and we wait another 2-5 years to see if Nikon does anything with
APS-C for MILC.


Something like that. Give it at least two years before Nikon can determine
if the Z line has been a success.

--
Sandman
 




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