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M is for Magenta



 
 
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  #1  
Old November 10th 06, 01:53 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
Scott W
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,131
Default M is for Magenta

Over the last few days it has become clear that the M8 has far too weak
of an IR blocking filter. The problem is textiles that are dyed black
often reflect a lot of IR, which the camera sees as both red and blue.
The result is that many clothes that should be black photograph as
magenta.

In watching the Leica forums I find it interesting that a number of
people are saying that this is not a problem since it is easy to change
the colors in Photoshop. Now call me crazy but I would be more then a
little upset if I paid $5,000 for a camera only to find out that I had
to hand adjust colors in my photos. The problem is that you can't
just do a global replace of black for magenta since the real world does
have magenta in it.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out over the next few
days.

Acott

  #2  
Old November 10th 06, 12:12 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,311
Default M is for Magenta

Scott W wrote:
Over the last few days it has become clear that the M8 has far too weak
of an IR blocking filter.


And it also shows nasty streaking in some conditions with bright lights
- perhaps related?...

But Leica's damage control has swung into action:

Leica statement:

Dear Friends of Leica,

Customer feedback to us following the start of shipment of the LEICA M8
points to a performance under certain conditions that does not meet the
expectations in the Leica brand. Our technical and engineering teams
have isolated the source of these concerns and have identified
definitive solutions. Over the next two weeks we will communicate a
plan to further assure you of your investment in the LEICA M8.

We hope for your understanding and support. Please accept that I will
not be able to answer all messages in the forum personally.

Kind regards

Leica Camera AG

(http://www.dpreview.com/news/0611/06...8statement.asp)

Sounds like a recall is looming, but I'll bet it is only "for those
customers who are experiencing problems...."

Hmm. Where's Dallas to defend his beloved?

(O;

  #3  
Old November 10th 06, 03:43 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
nathantw
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 97
Default M is for Magenta

Sounds like the beta testers, ahem I mean early adopters, have done a
great service for Leica while instead of charging the company a salary
they're paying the company $5000 each to test their camera. Wow, isn't
the computer age wonderful? I remember the old days when stuff was
tested before it went out the door, now companies just let their
customers do the testing for them.

wrote:
Scott W wrote:
Over the last few days it has become clear that the M8 has far too weak
of an IR blocking filter.


And it also shows nasty streaking in some conditions with bright lights
- perhaps related?...

But Leica's damage control has swung into action:

Leica statement:

Dear Friends of Leica,

Customer feedback to us following the start of shipment of the LEICA M8
points to a performance under certain conditions that does not meet the
expectations in the Leica brand. Our technical and engineering teams
have isolated the source of these concerns and have identified
definitive solutions. Over the next two weeks we will communicate a
plan to further assure you of your investment in the LEICA M8.

We hope for your understanding and support. Please accept that I will
not be able to answer all messages in the forum personally.

Kind regards

Leica Camera AG

(
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0611/06...8statement.asp)

Sounds like a recall is looming, but I'll bet it is only "for those
customers who are experiencing problems...."

Hmm. Where's Dallas to defend his beloved?

(O;


  #4  
Old November 10th 06, 03:53 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
Mike Fields
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 235
Default M is for Magenta

And, after you find the bugs for them, they fix
the software and charge you for the "upgrade"
(which fixes many of the things that did not work
as advertised but introduced new ones ... Acronis
"True Image" anyone ?)

mikey

"nathantw" wrote in message
oups.com...
Sounds like the beta testers, ahem I mean early adopters, have done a
great service for Leica while instead of charging the company a salary
they're paying the company $5000 each to test their camera. Wow, isn't
the computer age wonderful? I remember the old days when stuff was
tested before it went out the door, now companies just let their
customers do the testing for them.

wrote:
Scott W wrote:
Over the last few days it has become clear that the M8 has far too
weak
of an IR blocking filter.


And it also shows nasty streaking in some conditions with bright
lights
- perhaps related?...

But Leica's damage control has swung into action:

Leica statement:

Dear Friends of Leica,

Customer feedback to us following the start of shipment of the LEICA
M8
points to a performance under certain conditions that does not meet
the
expectations in the Leica brand. Our technical and engineering teams
have isolated the source of these concerns and have identified
definitive solutions. Over the next two weeks we will communicate a
plan to further assure you of your investment in the LEICA M8.

We hope for your understanding and support. Please accept that I will
not be able to answer all messages in the forum personally.

Kind regards

Leica Camera AG

(
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0611/06...8statement.asp)

Sounds like a recall is looming, but I'll bet it is only "for those
customers who are experiencing problems...."

Hmm. Where's Dallas to defend his beloved?

(O;



  #5  
Old November 10th 06, 04:43 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
David J. Littleboy
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,618
Default M is for Magenta

"Mike Fields" spam_me_not_mr.gadget2@comcastDOTnet wrote:
And, after you find the bugs for them, they fix
the software and charge you for the "upgrade"
(which fixes many of the things that did not work
as advertised but introduced new ones ... Acronis
"True Image" anyone ?)


I doesn't work that way: the problems with the M8 can't be fixed in
software.

When you figure out for Leica that Bayer CFA filters are transparent to IR
(which everyoner knew all along), and you figure out for Leica that Bayer
cameras desperately need a low-pass (AA) filter (which everyone knew all
along; heck the Foveon fans have been banging that into our heads for years
now (they're right about Bayer arrays needing AA filtering, they're wrong
about Foveon or monochrome sensors not needing it)), you'll realize that you
spent US$5000 for a camera that is physically defective and simply not
repairable.

One completely and totally buck-nekked US$5000 emperor.

David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan



mikey

"nathantw" wrote in message
oups.com...
Sounds like the beta testers, ahem I mean early adopters, have done a
great service for Leica while instead of charging the company a salary
they're paying the company $5000 each to test their camera. Wow, isn't
the computer age wonderful? I remember the old days when stuff was
tested before it went out the door, now companies just let their
customers do the testing for them.

wrote:
Scott W wrote:
Over the last few days it has become clear that the M8 has far too
weak
of an IR blocking filter.

And it also shows nasty streaking in some conditions with bright lights
- perhaps related?...

But Leica's damage control has swung into action:

Leica statement:

Dear Friends of Leica,

Customer feedback to us following the start of shipment of the LEICA M8
points to a performance under certain conditions that does not meet the
expectations in the Leica brand. Our technical and engineering teams
have isolated the source of these concerns and have identified
definitive solutions. Over the next two weeks we will communicate a
plan to further assure you of your investment in the LEICA M8.

We hope for your understanding and support. Please accept that I will
not be able to answer all messages in the forum personally.

Kind regards

Leica Camera AG

(
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0611/06...8statement.asp)

Sounds like a recall is looming, but I'll bet it is only "for those
customers who are experiencing problems...."

Hmm. Where's Dallas to defend his beloved?

(O;





  #6  
Old November 10th 06, 05:00 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
Scott W
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,131
Default M is for Magenta

wrote:
But Leica's damage control has swung into action:

Leica statement:

Dear Friends of Leica,

Customer feedback to us following the start of shipment of the LEICA M8
points to a performance under certain conditions that does not meet the
expectations in the Leica brand. Our technical and engineering teams
have isolated the source of these concerns and have identified
definitive solutions. Over the next two weeks we will communicate a
plan to further assure you of your investment in the LEICA M8.

We hope for your understanding and support. Please accept that I will
not be able to answer all messages in the forum personally.

Kind regards

Leica Camera AG

(
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0611/06...8statement.asp)

Sounds like a recall is looming, but I'll bet it is only "for those
customers who are experiencing problems...."


And now the big problem, this statement has made a lot of people who
have ordered the M8 happy, but they have their limits. This is the
response from one such person "That's all the M8 purchasers wanted
to hear. Well done (as long as the answer isn't filters!)."

And this is the rub, Leica has already said the solution was filters in
front on the lens. Will Leica change their mind on this and re-chip
the cameras with a sensor that has a working IR blocking filter?

Digital cameras that are overly sensitive to IR are not new, but the
other camera companies fixed the problems years ago. I would imagine
that are some pretty tense phone calls between Kodak and Leica right
about now.

Scott

  #7  
Old November 10th 06, 05:44 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
acl
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,389
Default M is for Magenta

Scott W wrote:

And now the big problem, this statement has made a lot of people who
have ordered the M8 happy, but they have their limits. This is the
response from one such person "That's all the M8 purchasers wanted
to hear. Well done (as long as the answer isn't filters!)."

And this is the rub, Leica has already said the solution was filters in
front on the lens. Will Leica change their mind on this and re-chip
the cameras with a sensor that has a working IR blocking filter?


Well, maybe they'll retrofit IR filters in the existing cameras
(unlikely, I suppose) and fix upcoming models (more likely, I'd say).
Being such a small company, and not having much beyond their reputation
to sell their cameras (for the asking price), I'd have thought they will
make a serious effort to please the people who already bought the
cameras; otherwise they're in serious trouble.


Digital cameras that are overly sensitive to IR are not new, but the
other camera companies fixed the problems years ago. I would imagine
that are some pretty tense phone calls between Kodak and Leica right
about now.


Yes, it's pretty bizarre. You'd have thought that they (Kodak and Leica)
would have taken into account the years of experience with the IR
problems of sensors. Not to mention the streaking business, which is
also strange (but that may be fixable by firmware, who knows? It depends
on what it actually is).

But anyway, I think this is pretty funny (if you're not one of the
sufferers, of course). Especially given some of the statements about
this camera made here recently.
  #8  
Old November 10th 06, 06:06 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
SimonLW
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 146
Default M is for Magenta

"David J. Littleboy" wrote in message
...
"Mike Fields" spam_me_not_mr.gadget2@comcastDOTnet wrote:
And, after you find the bugs for them, they fix
the software and charge you for the "upgrade"
(which fixes many of the things that did not work
as advertised but introduced new ones ... Acronis
"True Image" anyone ?)


I doesn't work that way: the problems with the M8 can't be fixed in
software.

When you figure out for Leica that Bayer CFA filters are transparent to IR
(which everyoner knew all along), and you figure out for Leica that Bayer
cameras desperately need a low-pass (AA) filter (which everyone knew all
along; heck the Foveon fans have been banging that into our heads for
years now (they're right about Bayer arrays needing AA filtering, they're
wrong about Foveon or monochrome sensors not needing it)), you'll realize
that you spent US$5000 for a camera that is physically defective and
simply not repairable.

One completely and totally buck-nekked US$5000 emperor.

David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan



mikey

"nathantw" wrote in message
oups.com...
Sounds like the beta testers, ahem I mean early adopters, have done a
great service for Leica while instead of charging the company a salary
they're paying the company $5000 each to test their camera. Wow, isn't
the computer age wonderful? I remember the old days when stuff was
tested before it went out the door, now companies just let their
customers do the testing for them.

wrote:
Scott W wrote:
Over the last few days it has become clear that the M8 has far too
weak
of an IR blocking filter.

And it also shows nasty streaking in some conditions with bright lights
- perhaps related?...

But Leica's damage control has swung into action:

Leica statement:

Dear Friends of Leica,

Customer feedback to us following the start of shipment of the LEICA M8
points to a performance under certain conditions that does not meet the
expectations in the Leica brand. Our technical and engineering teams
have isolated the source of these concerns and have identified
definitive solutions. Over the next two weeks we will communicate a
plan to further assure you of your investment in the LEICA M8.

We hope for your understanding and support. Please accept that I will
not be able to answer all messages in the forum personally.

Kind regards

Leica Camera AG

(
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0611/06...8statement.asp)

Sounds like a recall is looming, but I'll bet it is only "for those
customers who are experiencing problems...."

Hmm. Where's Dallas to defend his beloved?

(O;




Can't be too hard to recall the 10 cameras sold ; )


  #9  
Old November 10th 06, 06:10 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
acl
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,389
Default M is for Magenta

Scott W wrote:


Digital cameras that are overly sensitive to IR are not new, but the
other camera companies fixed the problems years ago. I would imagine
that are some pretty tense phone calls between Kodak and Leica right
about now.


OK, here's a thought (advance warning: I just thought of this, so take
it with a grain of salt). According to
http://www.astrosurf.com/buil/filters/curves.htm
the passband of these IR blocking filter depends on the angle of
incidence of the light. If the angle of incidence is increased (0 angle
is normal incidence), the peak wavelength is shifted to lower
wavelengths (towards the visible). Since the distance of the lens' rear
element from the filter/sensor is much less for the M8 than for SLRs,
the largest possible angle of incidence will be larger than for SLRs.

This means that they may not have been able to use a filter that cuts
off low enough wavelengths, because then you would end up blocking some
visible wavelengths at the edges of the frame (for some lenses).

If that's the case, it's not very good news I'm afraid. But maybe
someone who knows more about IR filters can chime in here and explain
why I'm wrong.
  #10  
Old November 10th 06, 06:18 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
Scott W
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,131
Default M is for Magenta


acl wrote:
Scott W wrote:


Digital cameras that are overly sensitive to IR are not new, but the
other camera companies fixed the problems years ago. I would imagine
that are some pretty tense phone calls between Kodak and Leica right
about now.


OK, here's a thought (advance warning: I just thought of this, so take
it with a grain of salt). According to
http://www.astrosurf.com/buil/filters/curves.htm
the passband of these IR blocking filter depends on the angle of
incidence of the light. If the angle of incidence is increased (0 angle
is normal incidence), the peak wavelength is shifted to lower
wavelengths (towards the visible). Since the distance of the lens' rear
element from the filter/sensor is much less for the M8 than for SLRs,
the largest possible angle of incidence will be larger than for SLRs.

This means that they may not have been able to use a filter that cuts
off low enough wavelengths, because then you would end up blocking some
visible wavelengths at the edges of the frame (for some lenses).

If that's the case, it's not very good news I'm afraid. But maybe
someone who knows more about IR filters can chime in here and explain
why I'm wrong.

An interesting idea. I really don't know if Leica is using a
interference filter or a absorption filter, I kind of think maybe an
absorption filter. The reason I am thinking this is Leica talked about
wanting to use a thinner then normal filter, most likely because they
have very little working distance on their lenses. They said they are
using a 0.5 mm filter, the standard thickness is 1.0mm and whereas this
would not matter for a interference filter it is not good for an
absorption filter.

Scott

 




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