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Is photography art?



 
 
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  #1  
Old September 27th 03, 12:47 AM
William Graham
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Posts: n/a
Default Is photography art?


NJH wrote in message
...

"William Graham" wrote in message
news:FRNcb.586236$uu5.95963@sccrnsc04...

NJH wrote in message
...
There are a lot of people who think good art can be obtained through
originality.....Unfortunately, it takes more than originality to be
good....I would rather look at something beautiful that I've seen

many
times
before, than look at something that is ugly, simply because I

haven't
seen
it before. This weird, "taste" of mine manifests itself in the

modern
music.....I think most of it is gastly....I would much rather hear a
symphony or opera that I've heard many times before than to sit

through
some
of the catcalls that pass as modern music......

Hear, hear!

And that's even without getting into so-called "rap music" (now

there's
an
oxymoron if I ever heard one).

Neil


Yes, but I am fond of annoying my musical friends by saying that music
includes 4 things......Beat, Words, Harmony, and Melody...And rap has

three
of them: Beat, words and melody, But modern jazz only has two: Beat, and
harmony....So which is more like music? (I am obviously not a lover of
modern jazz....)


Heh. That's pretty interesting.

I only occasionally like jazz (and not for very long at that), and rap I
can't stand at all. I'm not sure I know what you mean by "modern jazz"--I
don't really know anything about music in a technical sense, and don't

know
whether whatever jazz I occasionally get while roaming the FM dial is

modern
or not.

But I have to quarrel with your "4 things" rule--most of the music I

listen
to is classical and contains no words. Surely that's music anyway? :-)

Neil

Yes....That's true....There is opera....But the words in opera are
definitely not a part of the musical experience....If anything, they
detract, which is why we love operas in another language.......Words are,
however, an important part of popular music, and some popular songs are very
beautiful. (to me, at least)


  #2  
Old September 27th 03, 01:18 AM
William Graham
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Is photography art?


NJH wrote in message
...

"William Graham" wrote in message
news:rmPcb.586749$uu5.96374@sccrnsc04...

Gregory W. Blank wrote in message
...
In article q8Ocb.582844$o%2.265711@sccrnsc02,
"William Graham" wrote:

How about the talented artist that abandons his talent and produces

junk
just to make lots of money.....(Picasso is a good example) Is

everything
that he/she produces art? Does a capable artist produce art always?

Again,
is the process important, or just the end result?

Survival I believe is an important concept. I would state that a

balanced
"Artist" can have both worlds, if that is what they choose. That is

fullfillment
and the ability to produce saleable if less than fullfilling work.

Yes, but....If Pacasso picks up a dirty envelope from the gutter and

signs
his name to it, it becomes immediately worth several thousand

dollars....But
is it art? If the process is important, then the dirty envelope has no
process, so it isn't art....So why does it have value?


That's a metaphysical question.

It has "value" because people will pay money for it. It has no more
intrinsic value than any other dirty envelope, obviously.

Why was a length of clothesline tacked to a wall "worth" $7,000.00?

Because
some "artist" well received in artsy circles tacked it there.

Neil


Well.....Not to MY wall, he doesn't....I require some proof of skill before
I'll pay for any work of art.....Sometimes just the skill is enough....I can
spend 30 minutes just staring at that piece of broken bread, or the
wineglass half full of wine in Dali's, "Last Supper". His incredible ability
to use a paintbrush just astounds me.........


  #3  
Old September 27th 03, 01:52 AM
William Graham
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Is photography art?


NJH wrote in message
...

"William Graham" wrote in message
news:b4Ocb.580196$Ho3.109288@sccrnsc03...

NJH wrote in message
...

"William Graham" wrote in message
et...

John Stafford wrote in message
...
William Graham wrote:

I spent my working life
operating a very complicated high energy physics research

machine.
I
was
part of a crew of 15 or 20 people who did this around the clock

for
a
living. No two of us operated the machine the same way, with the

same
finesse and ultimate results. It was a complex, and primarily

decision
making process. There is no question in my mind as to its being

an
art.

Oh fer Gawd's sake... It's not up to you whether it was Art. So it

was
complex! Big deal! Is everything that is complex and done in a

unique,
demanding way Art? I think not! Get over it.

Anything that two people do differently, and it can be said that one

does
it
better than the other, is art. [ . . . ]

What utter gibberish.

If you keep pounding the word "art" into some sort of shapeless mush

such
that it no longer has any meaning, what word will you invent to mean

what
"art" used to mean? Or are you so insensible to the concept of real

art
that
you just don't think it's important to have a word for it?

Neil


Answer the question I posed above about the end product being the lone
consideration in the definition, or is the process important.......


The process is important.


Also the
question about the four or five common disciplines....(Painting,

sculpture,
music, dance, and literature) Does art have to be restricted to these

five?

No.

Neil


Ah....Then where do you draw the line? - Operating a high-energy physics
machine can't be art, in your opinion, but art can stray from the above
mentioned five disciplines......So what makes any particular activity art,
in your opinion?


  #4  
Old September 27th 03, 05:20 AM
BuGz
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Is photography art?

My grandmothers lasagna was an art. But her veal scallopini was a religion.
"William Graham" wrote in message
news:Kb5db.437471$cF.139775@rwcrnsc53...

NJH wrote in message
...

"William Graham" wrote in message
news:b4Ocb.580196$Ho3.109288@sccrnsc03...

NJH wrote in message
...

"William Graham" wrote in message
et...

John Stafford wrote in message
...
William Graham wrote:

I spent my working life
operating a very complicated high energy physics research

machine.
I
was
part of a crew of 15 or 20 people who did this around the

clock
for
a
living. No two of us operated the machine the same way, with

the
same
finesse and ultimate results. It was a complex, and primarily
decision
making process. There is no question in my mind as to its

being
an
art.

Oh fer Gawd's sake... It's not up to you whether it was Art. So

it
was
complex! Big deal! Is everything that is complex and done in a

unique,
demanding way Art? I think not! Get over it.

Anything that two people do differently, and it can be said that

one
does
it
better than the other, is art. [ . . . ]

What utter gibberish.

If you keep pounding the word "art" into some sort of shapeless mush

such
that it no longer has any meaning, what word will you invent to mean

what
"art" used to mean? Or are you so insensible to the concept of real

art
that
you just don't think it's important to have a word for it?

Neil


Answer the question I posed above about the end product being the lone
consideration in the definition, or is the process important.......


The process is important.


Also the
question about the four or five common disciplines....(Painting,

sculpture,
music, dance, and literature) Does art have to be restricted to these

five?

No.

Neil


Ah....Then where do you draw the line? - Operating a high-energy physics
machine can't be art, in your opinion, but art can stray from the above
mentioned five disciplines......So what makes any particular activity art,
in your opinion?




  #5  
Old September 27th 03, 06:13 AM
Constantinople
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Is photography art?

"BuGz" wrote in
newse8db.437342$Oz4.245948@rwcrnsc54:

My grandmothers lasagna was an art. But her veal scallopini was a
religion.


I'm coming over for dinner.

  #6  
Old September 27th 03, 03:22 PM
NJH
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Is photography art?


"William Graham" wrote in message
. net...

NJH wrote in message
...

"William Graham" wrote in message
news:FRNcb.586236$uu5.95963@sccrnsc04...

NJH wrote in message
...
There are a lot of people who think good art can be obtained

through
originality.....Unfortunately, it takes more than originality to

be
good....I would rather look at something beautiful that I've seen

many
times
before, than look at something that is ugly, simply because I

haven't
seen
it before. This weird, "taste" of mine manifests itself in the

modern
music.....I think most of it is gastly....I would much rather hear

a
symphony or opera that I've heard many times before than to sit

through
some
of the catcalls that pass as modern music......

Hear, hear!

And that's even without getting into so-called "rap music" (now

there's
an
oxymoron if I ever heard one).

Neil

Yes, but I am fond of annoying my musical friends by saying that music
includes 4 things......Beat, Words, Harmony, and Melody...And rap has

three
of them: Beat, words and melody, But modern jazz only has two: Beat,

and
harmony....So which is more like music? (I am obviously not a lover of
modern jazz....)


Heh. That's pretty interesting.

I only occasionally like jazz (and not for very long at that), and rap I
can't stand at all. I'm not sure I know what you mean by "modern

jazz"--I
don't really know anything about music in a technical sense, and don't

know
whether whatever jazz I occasionally get while roaming the FM dial is

modern
or not.

But I have to quarrel with your "4 things" rule--most of the music I

listen
to is classical and contains no words. Surely that's music anyway? :-)

Neil

Yes....That's true....There is opera....But the words in opera are
definitely not a part of the musical experience....If anything, they
detract, which is why we love operas in another language.......


I was really thinking of music which has no words at all. Chopin, Beethoven,
Rimsky-Korsakov, those sorts of things.


Words are,
however, an important part of popular music, and some popular songs are

very
beautiful. (to me, at least)


Sure, I agree. Though I am inclined to prefer songs which I suppose would be
called "once popular" rather than popular, especially songs of the 1930s and
thereabouts.

Neil


  #7  
Old September 27th 03, 03:42 PM
NJH
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Is photography art?


"William Graham" wrote in message
. net...

NJH wrote in message
...

"William Graham" wrote in message
news:rmPcb.586749$uu5.96374@sccrnsc04...

Gregory W. Blank wrote in message
...
In article q8Ocb.582844$o%2.265711@sccrnsc02,
"William Graham" wrote:

How about the talented artist that abandons his talent and

produces
junk
just to make lots of money.....(Picasso is a good example) Is

everything
that he/she produces art? Does a capable artist produce art

always?
Again,
is the process important, or just the end result?

Survival I believe is an important concept. I would state that a

balanced
"Artist" can have both worlds, if that is what they choose. That is
fullfillment
and the ability to produce saleable if less than fullfilling work.

Yes, but....If Pacasso picks up a dirty envelope from the gutter and

signs
his name to it, it becomes immediately worth several thousand

dollars....But
is it art? If the process is important, then the dirty envelope has no
process, so it isn't art....So why does it have value?


That's a metaphysical question.

It has "value" because people will pay money for it. It has no more
intrinsic value than any other dirty envelope, obviously.

Why was a length of clothesline tacked to a wall "worth" $7,000.00?

Because
some "artist" well received in artsy circles tacked it there.

Neil


Well.....Not to MY wall, he doesn't....I require some proof of skill

before
I'll pay for any work of art.....Sometimes just the skill is enough....I

can
spend 30 minutes just staring at that piece of broken bread, or the
wineglass half full of wine in Dali's, "Last Supper". His incredible

ability
to use a paintbrush just astounds me.........


Agreed! . . . It's the difference between real art and junk art.

Junk art is interesting too, but only as a kind of fad phenomenon or
psychosocial curiosity, not as art.

Neil


  #8  
Old September 27th 03, 03:59 PM
NJH
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Is photography art?


"William Graham" wrote in message
news:Kb5db.437471$cF.139775@rwcrnsc53...

NJH wrote in message
...

"William Graham" wrote in message
news:b4Ocb.580196$Ho3.109288@sccrnsc03...

NJH wrote in message
...

"William Graham" wrote in message
et...

John Stafford wrote in message
...
William Graham wrote:

I spent my working life
operating a very complicated high energy physics research

machine.
I
was
part of a crew of 15 or 20 people who did this around the

clock
for
a
living. No two of us operated the machine the same way, with

the
same
finesse and ultimate results. It was a complex, and primarily
decision
making process. There is no question in my mind as to its

being
an
art.

Oh fer Gawd's sake... It's not up to you whether it was Art. So

it
was
complex! Big deal! Is everything that is complex and done in a

unique,
demanding way Art? I think not! Get over it.

Anything that two people do differently, and it can be said that

one
does
it
better than the other, is art. [ . . . ]

What utter gibberish.

If you keep pounding the word "art" into some sort of shapeless mush

such
that it no longer has any meaning, what word will you invent to mean

what
"art" used to mean? Or are you so insensible to the concept of real

art
that
you just don't think it's important to have a word for it?

Neil


Answer the question I posed above about the end product being the lone
consideration in the definition, or is the process important.......


The process is important.


Also the
question about the four or five common disciplines....(Painting,

sculpture,
music, dance, and literature) Does art have to be restricted to these

five?

No.

Neil


Ah....Then where do you draw the line? -


I don't draw any line.


Operating a high-energy physics
machine can't be art, in your opinion,


I've said this repeatedly: ANY activity requiring a modicum of skill may be
an art in some sense, but not in the sense of fine art.


but art can stray from the above
mentioned five disciplines......So what makes any particular activity art,
in your opinion?


Art in any sense at all, or fine art?

Neil


  #9  
Old September 27th 03, 09:06 PM
William Graham
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Is photography art?


NJH wrote in message
m...

"William Graham" wrote in message
. net...

NJH wrote in message
...

"William Graham" wrote in message
news:FRNcb.586236$uu5.95963@sccrnsc04...

NJH wrote in message
...
There are a lot of people who think good art can be obtained

through
originality.....Unfortunately, it takes more than originality to

be
good....I would rather look at something beautiful that I've

seen
many
times
before, than look at something that is ugly, simply because I

haven't
seen
it before. This weird, "taste" of mine manifests itself in the

modern
music.....I think most of it is gastly....I would much rather

hear
a
symphony or opera that I've heard many times before than to sit
through
some
of the catcalls that pass as modern music......

Hear, hear!

And that's even without getting into so-called "rap music" (now

there's
an
oxymoron if I ever heard one).

Neil

Yes, but I am fond of annoying my musical friends by saying that

music
includes 4 things......Beat, Words, Harmony, and Melody...And rap

has
three
of them: Beat, words and melody, But modern jazz only has two: Beat,

and
harmony....So which is more like music? (I am obviously not a lover

of
modern jazz....)

Heh. That's pretty interesting.

I only occasionally like jazz (and not for very long at that), and rap

I
can't stand at all. I'm not sure I know what you mean by "modern

jazz"--I
don't really know anything about music in a technical sense, and don't

know
whether whatever jazz I occasionally get while roaming the FM dial is

modern
or not.

But I have to quarrel with your "4 things" rule--most of the music I

listen
to is classical and contains no words. Surely that's music anyway?

:-)

Neil

Yes....That's true....There is opera....But the words in opera are
definitely not a part of the musical experience....If anything, they
detract, which is why we love operas in another language.......


I was really thinking of music which has no words at all. Chopin,

Beethoven,
Rimsky-Korsakov, those sorts of things.


Words are,
however, an important part of popular music, and some popular songs are

very
beautiful. (to me, at least)


Sure, I agree. Though I am inclined to prefer songs which I suppose would

be
called "once popular" rather than popular, especially songs of the 1930s

and
thereabouts.

Neil


Yes, but the music that really depends on words for its popularity is the
folk music of the 60's....Pieces like, "Cat's in the Cradle..."


  #10  
Old September 27th 03, 09:36 PM
William Graham
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Is photography art?


NJH wrote in message
m...

"William Graham" wrote in message
. net...

NJH wrote in message
...

"William Graham" wrote in message
news:rmPcb.586749$uu5.96374@sccrnsc04...

Gregory W. Blank wrote in message
...
In article q8Ocb.582844$o%2.265711@sccrnsc02,
"William Graham" wrote:

How about the talented artist that abandons his talent and

produces
junk
just to make lots of money.....(Picasso is a good example) Is
everything
that he/she produces art? Does a capable artist produce art

always?
Again,
is the process important, or just the end result?

Survival I believe is an important concept. I would state that a
balanced
"Artist" can have both worlds, if that is what they choose. That

is
fullfillment
and the ability to produce saleable if less than fullfilling work.

Yes, but....If Pacasso picks up a dirty envelope from the gutter and

signs
his name to it, it becomes immediately worth several thousand
dollars....But
is it art? If the process is important, then the dirty envelope has

no
process, so it isn't art....So why does it have value?

That's a metaphysical question.

It has "value" because people will pay money for it. It has no more
intrinsic value than any other dirty envelope, obviously.

Why was a length of clothesline tacked to a wall "worth" $7,000.00?

Because
some "artist" well received in artsy circles tacked it there.

Neil


Well.....Not to MY wall, he doesn't....I require some proof of skill

before
I'll pay for any work of art.....Sometimes just the skill is enough....I

can
spend 30 minutes just staring at that piece of broken bread, or the
wineglass half full of wine in Dali's, "Last Supper". His incredible

ability
to use a paintbrush just astounds me.........


Agreed! . . . It's the difference between real art and junk art.

Junk art is interesting too, but only as a kind of fad phenomenon or
psychosocial curiosity, not as art.

Neil


Yes...But everyone sees it differently....My brother in law saw the whole
painting, not just the bread and wineglass (and folded, ironed, and spread
out tablecloth, which is also amazing) and he said, "It looks like a giant
spider to me." - And I stood back and looked at the whole thing, and in a
way, he was right, it did look like a giant spider.....So I was impressed
with the technique, and the fantastic brush control, while he looked at the
whole painting as a giant design, and saw its resemblance to a big
spider......


 




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