Arista Ortho Lith Film Problem

I've been trying out Arista Ortho Lith Film, as an alternative to
Bergger, for negatives used for platinum prints. Sometimes the negs
work really well (although the mix of developers is rather odd).

BUT, on many occasions, weird circles appear on the surface of the
negative. They do not appear in the same place. The neg can be a
contact print positive or can be the final enlarged negative. The
circles look like areas of less density. Their sizes vary; they are not
from the original negative.

Generally, the amount of (film) dektol is in the range of 1:36 to 1:72;
but my technicque is very uniform; there is continual agitation.
Sometimes the neg is perfect; but it's really a crap shoot.

Has anyone had this experience? Is it a matter of quality control by
Arista? Or something I am doing?

Thanks to all.

RON

"Ron Gans" wrote

I've been trying out Arista Ortho Lith Film ... weird circles
appear on the surface of the negative

Mysterious circles, eh?

Do the circles crop up if you develop unexposed
film and/or film that has been fogged to a uniform
gray with no image?

Generally, the amount of (film) Dektol is in the range of 1:36 to 1:72;

Is this to mean you are diluting stock Dektol 1:36 instead of
the customary 1:2?

... as negatives for making Pt prints ...

Are you processing lith [as in Kodalith] film to
get a continuous tone image?

--
Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Darkroom Automation: F-Stop Timers, Enlarging Meters
http://www.nolindan.com/da/index.htm
n o lindan at ix dot netcom dot com

I've not tried unexposed film yet.

The stock Dektol is in the range of 1:36 (up to 1:15, 1:10) instead of
1:2. And yes this is for continuous tone and it works, no question
about it. In fact, it works rather well, crop circles aside. Of course,
you have to fiddle a lot with exposure times, but that is always the
case.

The fact that it is so much cheaper than bergger, which I have been
using exclusively for a while, weighs greatly in its favor.

The same neg in the enlarger produces an enlarged neg on one occasion
with these circles (they look like water spots or finger prints, but
are certainly not from my hands) and then no circles. I'm very certain
the technique and chemicals are the same each time (as much as you can
be sure).

RON


Nicholas O. Lindan wrote:
"Ron Gans" wrote

I've been trying out Arista Ortho Lith Film ... weird circles
appear on the surface of the negative

Mysterious circles, eh?

Do the circles crop up if you develop unexposed
film and/or film that has been fogged to a uniform
gray with no image?

Generally, the amount of (film) Dektol is in the range of 1:36 to 1:72;

Is this to mean you are diluting stock Dektol 1:36 instead of
the customary 1:2?

... as negatives for making Pt prints ...

Are you processing lith [as in Kodalith] film to
get a continuous tone image?

--
Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Darkroom Automation: F-Stop Timers, Enlarging Meters
http://www.nolindan.com/da/index.htm
n o lindan at ix dot netcom dot com

Ron Gans spake thus:

The same neg in the enlarger produces an enlarged neg on one occasion
with these circles (they look like water spots or finger prints, but
are certainly not from my hands) and then no circles. I'm very certain
the technique and chemicals are the same each time (as much as you can
be sure).

Bubbles? That'd be my first guess.


--
Just as McDonald's is where you go when you're hungry but don't really
care about the quality of your food, Wikipedia is where you go when
you're curious but don't really care about the quality of your knowledge.

- Matthew White's WikiWatch (http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/wikiwoo.htm)

Generally, the amount of (film) dektol is in the range of 1:36 to 1:72;
but my technicque is very uniform; there is continual agitation.
Sometimes the neg is perfect; but it's really a crap shoot.

Exhaustion? What total volume are you using? I know that once the dilution
rate goes up you're suppose to compensate by increasing the overall volume
of the developer. Are the spots in anyway related to the scene on the
negative (i.e. mid-tones, highlights etc.).
Incidentally, are you making the enlarged neg from a positive. I'm just
curious for my own future work in this area.

For an 8x10, the volume is about 1L. For 16x20, 2L. But I continually
agitate the neg, so I cannot see how these very well defined circles
would appear. If exhaustion were the issue, it would seem to me that
the entire neg would be affected. I've seen that with Arista. The
developer is always single use. The rest of the neg is OK.

And, yes, these are enlarged negs from positives.

RON
Alan Smithee wrote:
Generally, the amount of (film) dektol is in the range of 1:36 to 1:72;
but my technicque is very uniform; there is continual agitation.
Sometimes the neg is perfect; but it's really a crap shoot.

Exhaustion? What total volume are you using? I know that once the dilution
rate goes up you're suppose to compensate by increasing the overall volume
of the developer. Are the spots in anyway related to the scene on the
negative (i.e. mid-tones, highlights etc.).
Incidentally, are you making the enlarged neg from a positive. I'm just
curious for my own future work in this area.

That sounds like enough volume. If not air then probably a flaw in the lith
film then. Send it back to the supplier. Bad batch.


"Ron Gans" wrote in message
oups.com...
For an 8x10, the volume is about 1L. For 16x20, 2L. But I continually
agitate the neg, so I cannot see how these very well defined circles
would appear. If exhaustion were the issue, it would seem to me that
the entire neg would be affected. I've seen that with Arista. The
developer is always single use. The rest of the neg is OK.

And, yes, these are enlarged negs from positives.

RON
Alan Smithee wrote:
Generally, the amount of (film) dektol is in the range of 1:36 to
1:72;
but my technicque is very uniform; there is continual agitation.
Sometimes the neg is perfect; but it's really a crap shoot.

Exhaustion? What total volume are you using? I know that once the
dilution
rate goes up you're suppose to compensate by increasing the overall
volume
of the developer. Are the spots in anyway related to the scene on the
negative (i.e. mid-tones, highlights etc.).
Incidentally, are you making the enlarged neg from a positive. I'm just
curious for my own future work in this area.

Thanks. I contacted them (Freestyle). Besides that, and hopefully, it
is not a severe quality control issue, the film is OK. Very
tempermental, but I can produce a good platinum print, so that's what
counts. And, it comes in very large sizes (30" x 100').

Does anyone know of another similar Ortho type film like this, besides
Bergger?

RON
Alan Smithee wrote:
That sounds like enough volume. If not air then probably a flaw in the lith
film then. Send it back to the supplier. Bad batch.


"Ron Gans" wrote in message
oups.com...
For an 8x10, the volume is about 1L. For 16x20, 2L. But I continually
agitate the neg, so I cannot see how these very well defined circles
would appear. If exhaustion were the issue, it would seem to me that
the entire neg would be affected. I've seen that with Arista. The
developer is always single use. The rest of the neg is OK.

And, yes, these are enlarged negs from positives.

RON
Alan Smithee wrote:
Generally, the amount of (film) dektol is in the range of 1:36 to
1:72;
but my technicque is very uniform; there is continual agitation.
Sometimes the neg is perfect; but it's really a crap shoot.

Exhaustion? What total volume are you using? I know that once the
dilution
rate goes up you're suppose to compensate by increasing the overall
volume
of the developer. Are the spots in anyway related to the scene on the
negative (i.e. mid-tones, highlights etc.).
Incidentally, are you making the enlarged neg from a positive. I'm just
curious for my own future work in this area.

How do you reverse your original to make the positive? Or are you shooting
on reversal black and white (Scala?). Nothing is nothing to do with the
original problem I'm just curious. I intend to start working with lith film
this year and I was going to use Liam Lawless' reversal procedure. Have you
tried this method. Are there advantages to using your current method?


"Ron Gans" wrote in message
oups.com...
For an 8x10, the volume is about 1L. For 16x20, 2L. But I continually
agitate the neg, so I cannot see how these very well defined circles
would appear. If exhaustion were the issue, it would seem to me that
the entire neg would be affected. I've seen that with Arista. The
developer is always single use. The rest of the neg is OK.

And, yes, these are enlarged negs from positives.

RON
Alan Smithee wrote:
Generally, the amount of (film) dektol is in the range of 1:36 to
1:72;
but my technicque is very uniform; there is continual agitation.
Sometimes the neg is perfect; but it's really a crap shoot.

Exhaustion? What total volume are you using? I know that once the
dilution
rate goes up you're suppose to compensate by increasing the overall
volume
of the developer. Are the spots in anyway related to the scene on the
negative (i.e. mid-tones, highlights etc.).
Incidentally, are you making the enlarged neg from a positive. I'm just
curious for my own future work in this area.

I would guess the problem is in the film. But I am
not sure it is a problem for the vendor. The film
meets spec if the circles don't appear when developed
in Kodalith and exposed for line copy.

I once got continuos tone results from Arista
Lith film from some combination of exposure and
developing error. But I was looking normal
lithography results and so it was noted with not
more than a passing "Gee, that's weird".

--
Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Darkroom Automation: F-Stop Timers, Enlarging Meters
http://www.nolindan.com/da/index.htm
n o lindan at ix dot netcom dot com