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#11
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Sigma's euphemistic name for "plastic"
On Thu, 05 Jan 2017 21:34:29 -0500, nospam
wrote: In article , Eric Stevens wrote: I quite agree. Despite the claims of "climate change" doomsayers, a strong case can be made that global cooling is worse than global warming and that if human activity is forestalling the latter, that's a good thing. it's very clear that there is no global cooling nor will there be any time soon and that global warming may spell the end of life as we know it. ******** nope. for a timeline: http://xkcd.com/1732/ That was constructed for the purpose of fooling children. cite proof that was the goal. Look where it first was published http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/earth_te...e_timeline.png - xkcd Comics. Look at the carefully tailored inaccuracies in the presentation of the data ... Here is a much more accurate representation constructed in answer to the first: https://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpr..._timeline2.jpg When you bring up the image click on it to bring it up to its full size. 'peer reviewed cartoon' ??? seriously?? Read to the bottom and you will see the attributions, all of which have been peer reviewed. and it also shows a warming trend. And so it should. But it also shows the Medieval Warm period, the Roman Warm Period and the Minoan Warm Period. The last two of the above three are totally ignored by the cartoon you cited. That cartoon had to admit the existence of the Medieval Warm Period following the failure of Michael Mann et al to eliminate it from the record so instead the cartoon tries to mimise it "Too regional to affect the global average much". Before you are tempted to believe that claim you should read about the 'Mapping Project for the Medieval Warm Period' by Leuning and Varenholt which makes use of over 900 independent site studies by other. See https://wattsupwiththat.com/2017/01/...l-warm-period/ or http://tinyurl.com/jpakayz for a discussion. The site also includes a link to the complete map and list of data sources. -- Regards, Eric Stevens |
#12
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Sigma's euphemistic name for "plastic"
In article , Eric Stevens
wrote: for a timeline: http://xkcd.com/1732/ That was constructed for the purpose of fooling children. cite proof that was the goal. Look where it first was published http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/earth_te...e_timeline.png - xkcd Comics. Look at the carefully tailored inaccuracies in the presentation of the data ... what inaccuracies are those? they had some fun with it and threw in a few amusing bits, such as pokemon. that doesn't mean the factual part is bogus. Here is a much more accurate representation constructed in answer to the first: https://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpr..._timeline2.jpg When you bring up the image click on it to bring it up to its full size. 'peer reviewed cartoon' ??? seriously?? Read to the bottom and you will see the attributions, all of which have been peer reviewed. by whom? bugs bunny? if you're going to discard a timeline because it mentions pokemon, i'm going to discard a timeline because it calls itself a 'peer reviewed cartoon'. and it also shows a warming trend. And so it should. global warming confirmed. But it also shows the Medieval Warm period, the Roman Warm Period and the Minoan Warm Period. The last two of the above three are totally ignored by the cartoon you cited. That cartoon had to admit the existence of the Medieval Warm Period following the failure of Michael Mann et al to eliminate it from the record so instead the cartoon tries to mimise it "Too regional to affect the global average much". check again. Before you are tempted to believe that claim you should read about the 'Mapping Project for the Medieval Warm Period' by Leuning and Varenholt which makes use of over 900 independent site studies by other. See https://wattsupwiththat.com/2017/01/...tent-of-the-me dieval-warm-period/ or http://tinyurl.com/jpakayz for a discussion. The site also includes a link to the complete map and list of data sources. that looks like a more detailed way of saying the same thing. |
#13
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Sigma's euphemistic name for "plastic"
On Thu, 05 Jan 2017 23:37:17 -0500, nospam
wrote: In article , Eric Stevens wrote: for a timeline: http://xkcd.com/1732/ That was constructed for the purpose of fooling children. cite proof that was the goal. Look where it first was published http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/earth_te...e_timeline.png - xkcd Comics. Look at the carefully tailored inaccuracies in the presentation of the data ... what inaccuracies are those? they had some fun with it and threw in a few amusing bits, such as pokemon. that doesn't mean the factual part is bogus. Look at how smooth is the temperature history, the absence of temperature variation. This is nothing like the published data. Here is a much more accurate representation constructed in answer to the first: https://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpr..._timeline2.jpg When you bring up the image click on it to bring it up to its full size. 'peer reviewed cartoon' ??? seriously?? Read to the bottom and you will see the attributions, all of which have been peer reviewed. by whom? bugs bunny? Yes, in some cases. The rest of them were reviewed by Elmer Fudd. if you're going to discard a timeline because it mentions pokemon, i'm going to discard a timeline because it calls itself a 'peer reviewed cartoon'. Fortunately, I didn't discard it for that reason. I discarded it because I know something about paleoclimate and can see immediately that the history depicted by that cartoon is spurious. and it also shows a warming trend. And so it should. global warming confirmed. There is no dispute about that. There is dispute about the cause. There is considerable pressure to blame it all on mankind and one of the techniques that is used is to attempt to minimise the historical temperature variation. Denying the existence of the Medieval, Roman and Minoan warm periods is but one of the techniques. But it also shows the Medieval Warm period, the Roman Warm Period and the Minoan Warm Period. The last two of the above three are totally ignored by the cartoon you cited. That cartoon had to admit the existence of the Medieval Warm Period following the failure of Michael Mann et al to eliminate it from the record so instead the cartoon tries to mimise it "Too regional to affect the global average much". check again. I quoted accurately. Before you are tempted to believe that claim you should read about the 'Mapping Project for the Medieval Warm Period' by Leuning and Varenholt which makes use of over 900 independent site studies by other. See https://wattsupwiththat.com/2017/01/...tent-of-the-me dieval-warm-period/ or http://tinyurl.com/jpakayz for a discussion. The site also includes a link to the complete map and list of data sources. that looks like a more detailed way of saying the same thing. There is evidence of warming from all over the globe. -- Regards, Eric Stevens |
#14
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Sigma's euphemistic name for "plastic"
On 2017-01-06 17:20, Eric Stevens wrote:
There is no dispute about that. There is dispute about the cause. There is considerable pressure to blame it all on mankind and one of the techniques that is used is to attempt to minimise the historical temperature variation. Denying the existence of the Medieval, Roman and Minoan warm periods is but one of the techniques. Nobody denies their existence - they question that they are relevant to what has happened over the past 200 years. If you look at the population change and carbon emissions over the history of mankind on the planet, to not ascribe a significant amount of atmospheric warming to human emissions over the past 2 centuries is nothing short of willful ignorance. Not only has the industrial age allowed economies to flourish, but also enabled the population to explode. The same 200 years of emissions output correspond to human population exploding from less than 1B to over 7B. All while using carbon emitting fuels like there was no tomorrow. (oops). The naysayers desperately search for those warm periods in the past while ignoring rate-of-change over short periods as we've experienced over the last century as CO2 and other gases buildup. Now with permafrost failure in the north, massive amounts of methane are leaking and it is a far worse GH gas than CO2 - the feedback effect will simply accelerate things. Of course those deniers will point to that as a "natural cause" while ignoring the system that exposed all that permafrost locked gas in the first place. Such is human folly. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUwm...ature=youtu.be Puts the human population aspect clearly as a function of time. -- "If war is God's way of teaching Americans geography, then recession is His way of teaching everyone a little economics." ..Raj Patel, The Value of Nothing. |
#15
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Sigma's euphemistic name for "plastic"
On Fri, 6 Jan 2017 18:04:43 -0500, Alan Browne
wrote: On 2017-01-06 17:20, Eric Stevens wrote: There is no dispute about that. There is dispute about the cause. There is considerable pressure to blame it all on mankind and one of the techniques that is used is to attempt to minimise the historical temperature variation. Denying the existence of the Medieval, Roman and Minoan warm periods is but one of the techniques. Nobody denies their existence - they question that they are relevant to what has happened over the past 200 years. They certainly try to ignore their existence. You should also read Dr David Demings statement to a US Senate Committee: http://www.epw.senate.gov/hearing_st....cfm?id=266543 "I received an astonishing email from a major researcher in the area of climate change. He said, "We have to get rid of the Medieval Warm Period." .... In 1769, Joseph Priestley warned that scientists overly attached to a favorite hypothesis would not hesitate to "warp the whole course of nature." In 1999, Michael Mann and his colleagues published a reconstruction of past temperature in which the MWP simply vanished. This unique estimate became known as the "hockey stick," because of the shape of the temperature graph." If you look at the population change and carbon emissions over the history of mankind on the planet, to not ascribe a significant amount of atmospheric warming to human emissions over the past 2 centuries is nothing short of willful ignorance. Atmospheric warming started well before mankind's contribution to atmospheric CO2 became noticeable. I agree you can draw a parallel between the current rise in atmospheric CO2 and global temperature but correlation is not causation. In fact, when you examine the historical record everything from the Vostok cores to the current detailed daily records shows that the atmospheric CO2 concentration lags behind temperature which surely demonstrates temperature changes cause CO2 changes and not vice versa (unless the source of the temperature chages is telepathic). Not only has the industrial age allowed economies to flourish, but also enabled the population to explode. The same 200 years of emissions output correspond to human population exploding from less than 1B to over 7B. All while using carbon emitting fuels like there was no tomorrow. (oops). I agree with you (I think). The rate of population increase is a major factor in the rate at which we are currently adding CO2 to the atmosphere. Even though I am not convinced that CO2 is the cause of the present temperature rise, I do not believe that we can go on pouring CO2 into the atmosphere indefinitely. Both China and India are planning to add a large number of coal fired plants and China may even be planning to supply Europe with power by overland power lines. The naysayers desperately search for those warm periods in the past while ignoring rate-of-change over short periods as we've experienced over the last century as CO2 and other gases buildup. Now with permafrost failure in the north, massive amounts of methane are leaking and it is a far worse GH gas than CO2 - the feedback effect will simply accelerate things. Of course those deniers will point to that as a "natural cause" while ignoring the system that exposed all that permafrost locked gas in the first place. Such is human folly. There is far more methane locked in, in submarine hydrates. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUwm...ature=youtu.be Puts the human population aspect clearly as a function of time. You may be interested in reading https://wattsupwiththat.com/2016/12/...al-bottleneck/ or http://tinyurl.com/j5sxp5l CO2 is not all bad and quite recently, for a long time, the earth was on the verge of having too little of it in its atmosphere. -- Regards, Eric Stevens |
#17
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Sigma's euphemistic name for "plastic"
On Fri, 06 Jan 2017 15:01:31 +1300, Eric Stevens
wrote: : On Thu, 05 Jan 2017 09:39:47 -0500, Robert Coe wrote: : ... : However, there is the uncomfortable example of Venus. It's not at all : far-fetched to conclude, as most reputable scientists do, that the reason : Venus is uninhabitable today is global warming due to the greenhouse effect. : It's a lesson we may choose to ignore at our peril. : : But the atmosphere of Venus is most unlike that of the earth (see : www.space.com/18526-venus-temperature.html ) Recent discoveries show : that the temperature of parts of Venus's atmosphere are way below that : of the earth's atmosphere. See : http://www.iflscience.com/space/deat...et-not-so-hot/ : or http://tinyurl.com/hrm2ugl The fact that the temperature of the upper atmosphere of Venus is lower than expected would be cold comfort to anyone trying to survive on the planet's surface.The surface is where the greenhouse effect is felt, and the temperature of its upper atmosphere is irrelevant to Venus's ability to support life. Bob |
#18
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Sigma's euphemistic name for "plastic"
On Fri, 6 Jan 2017 20:05:49 -0500, "J. Clarke"
wrote: In article wrednUseBPwWv-3FnZ2dnUU7- , says... On 2017-01-06 17:20, Eric Stevens wrote: There is no dispute about that. There is dispute about the cause. There is considerable pressure to blame it all on mankind and one of the techniques that is used is to attempt to minimise the historical temperature variation. Denying the existence of the Medieval, Roman and Minoan warm periods is but one of the techniques. Nobody denies their existence - they question that they are relevant to what has happened over the past 200 years. If you look at the population change and carbon emissions over the history of mankind on the planet, to not ascribe a significant amount of atmospheric warming to human emissions over the past 2 centuries is nothing short of willful ignorance. Not only has the industrial age allowed economies to flourish, but also enabled the population to explode. The same 200 years of emissions output correspond to human population exploding from less than 1B to over 7B. All while using carbon emitting fuels like there was no tomorrow. (oops). The naysayers desperately search for those warm periods in the past while ignoring rate-of-change over short periods as we've experienced over the last century as CO2 and other gases buildup. Now with permafrost failure in the north, massive amounts of methane are leaking and it is a far worse GH gas than CO2 - the feedback effect will simply accelerate things. Of course those deniers will point to that as a "natural cause" while ignoring the system that exposed all that permafrost locked gas in the first place. Such is human folly. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUwm...ature=youtu.be Puts the human population aspect clearly as a function of time. And a few years down the road the glaciation trigger will be pulled and everybody will be wishing for the global warming back. The Russians consider we may be heading for another mini-ice-age -- Regards, Eric Stevens |
#19
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Sigma's euphemistic name for "plastic"
On 1/6/2017 10:44 PM, Eric Stevens wrote:
On Fri, 6 Jan 2017 20:05:49 -0500, "J. Clarke" wrote: In article wrednUseBPwWv-3FnZ2dnUU7- , says... On 2017-01-06 17:20, Eric Stevens wrote: There is no dispute about that. There is dispute about the cause. There is considerable pressure to blame it all on mankind and one of the techniques that is used is to attempt to minimise the historical temperature variation. Denying the existence of the Medieval, Roman and Minoan warm periods is but one of the techniques. Nobody denies their existence - they question that they are relevant to what has happened over the past 200 years. If you look at the population change and carbon emissions over the history of mankind on the planet, to not ascribe a significant amount of atmospheric warming to human emissions over the past 2 centuries is nothing short of willful ignorance. Not only has the industrial age allowed economies to flourish, but also enabled the population to explode. The same 200 years of emissions output correspond to human population exploding from less than 1B to over 7B. All while using carbon emitting fuels like there was no tomorrow. (oops). The naysayers desperately search for those warm periods in the past while ignoring rate-of-change over short periods as we've experienced over the last century as CO2 and other gases buildup. Now with permafrost failure in the north, massive amounts of methane are leaking and it is a far worse GH gas than CO2 - the feedback effect will simply accelerate things. Of course those deniers will point to that as a "natural cause" while ignoring the system that exposed all that permafrost locked gas in the first place. Such is human folly. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUwm...ature=youtu.be Puts the human population aspect clearly as a function of time. And a few years down the road the glaciation trigger will be pulled and everybody will be wishing for the global warming back. The Russians consider we may be heading for another mini-ice-age Via intelligence gathered by a GOP hack? G == Later... Ron C cynic-in-training -- |
#20
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Sigma's euphemistic name for "plastic"
On 1/5/2017 9:36 PM, Eric Stevens wrote:
On Thu, 05 Jan 2017 10:40:05 -0500, Davoud wrote: RichA: : : Global warmers can't have it both ways. Either the Earth is still coming : off the last ice-age which is why it's warming... The idiot gets it wrong yet again, preserving his perfect record. We have ways of measuring the rate of warming and the rate since we began pouring large quantities of particulates and CO2 into the atmosphere at the beginning of the Industrial Revolution is unprecedented in geologic time. The curves, warming vs. emission rates, match to an amazing degree, pointing to one conclusion: human-caused global climate change. 1. Correspondence is not causation. 2. Apart for the last 60 years or so, atmospheric CO2 follows temperatu CO2 fluctuations are not the cause of temperature fluctuations. Yet all but a blink in the geological time line. [Regardless of causation.] == Later... Ron C -- |
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